Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[Saigon]

This is what's wrong with the far left. They need to excuse and feel sorry for everyone, no matter what they have done.

Who is far left here?

I sure as hell know I'm not.

 

[Spoonman]

dude, you live in finland? like 1 in two people have a gun over there. also like only half of the estimated firearms are registered. you can own prety much the same stuff we can have over here.

Your stats are a bit off, but you are basically right!

Finland has the 4th highest gun ownership in the developed world.

Subsequently, we have a homicide rate that is a national disgrace, and one of the worst records in the world of school shootings.

We face the same issue the US does, but the difference seems to be that here the issue is not partisan. It can be talked about, and we should have safety-based regulation within a year or two.

Stats:

Guns per 100,000 people:

USA 88
Finland 45
England 6

Homicides committed with firearm (rate of gun-related homicides)

USA 9,146 (38.97)
Finland 24 (0.45)
England 41 (0.07)

Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | guardian.co.uk

There seems to be a pattern there...!

actually my numbers were probeablly a bit low. The widely cited Small Arms Survey 2007 by Graduate Institute of International Studies in Geneva Switzerland claims there are some 3 million firearms in Finland, or 56 per 100 civilians.

you have a pattern of looking for the source that best suits your agenda. i prefer to take the middle ground

 

[Pogo]

^^ Non sequitur ^^



Voilà the fatuous arguments mentioned by Saigon. It's like clockwork.

Reading is a lost art.

you mean his false arguments

No Spoon, I mean yours. This is the same strawman we saw all day yesterday; you guys keep setting up the same strawman and expecting different results. It's not selling. There is nothing in this thread about gun control. If you want such a thread, find the "post new topic" button. I won't be joining you because I'm not interested. Now quit derailing.

 

[Saigon]

actually my numbers were probeablly a bit low.

Actually no they weren't - the figure of 3 million weapons is both outdated, and was only ever a vague estimate to take into account the thousands of weapons lost during the Second World War period - a lot of which were taken as souvenirs. It is generally considered that few of those weapons would today be in a serviceable condition. Wikipedia suggests a ownership rate of 45%.

But it doesn't really matter here, anyway - what we know is that Finland has a lot of guns, and the homicide rate to match.

 

[Spoonman]

^^ Non sequitur ^^



Voilà the fatuous arguments mentioned by Saigon. It's like clockwork.

Reading is a lost art.

you mean his false arguments

No Spoon, I mean yours. This is the same strawman we saw all day yesterday; you guys keep setting up the same strawman and expecting different results. It's not selling. There is nothing in this thread about gun control. If you want such a thread, find the "post new topic" button. I won't be joining you because I'm not interested. Now quit derailing.

actually it is a counter the the 10 falicies of the OP. No one is buying that crap. except the koolaid drinking left with an agenda.

 

[Spoonman]

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Hey guys, I want you see how these guys on the left will even deny history outright to prove their point. Here is a whole bunch of them denying that the Battle of Athens, Tennessee, 1946, ever took place. Or lying about what happened during it.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-f...tennesee-1946-ever-occured-2.html#post6876684

 

[Pogo]

dude, you live in finland? like 1 in two people have a gun over there. also like only half of the estimated firearms are registered. you can own prety much the same stuff we can have over here.

Your stats are a bit off, but you are basically right!

Finland has the 4th highest gun ownership in the developed world.

Subsequently, we have a homicide rate that is a national disgrace, and one of the worst records in the world of school shootings.

We face the same issue the US does, but the difference seems to be that here the issue is not partisan. It can be talked about, and we should have safety-based regulation within a year or two.!

Important observation, much as the point I was making last night about the dramatic difference in tone we could expect if we were having the same debate in Canada. Most places you get raional debate; here we get soap opera: hair-on-fire meltdown, paranoia, ad hominem, an endless parade of strawmen and gainsaying.

Which is exactly what I mean by the words "culture" and "fetish".

 

[Spoonman]

actually my numbers were probeablly a bit low.

Actually no they weren't - the figure of 3 million weapons is both outdated, and was only ever a vague estimate to take into account the thousands of weapons lost during the Second World War period - a lot of which were taken as souvenirs. It is generally considered that few of those weapons would today be in a serviceable condition. Wikipedia suggests a ownership rate of 45%.

But it doesn't really matter here, anyway - what we know is that Finland has a lot of guns, and the homicide rate to match.

no sport, if you actually read the source data for the table you provided you will see that there was no gun survey done. all they did was take reported crime data and estimate how many guns that might relate to. nice try, but sorry, no cigar

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets ​

• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)

• Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.

• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...​

• Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.​

• Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.

• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...​

• Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.​

• Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...

• Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)

• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...

• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...​

• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.

• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...​

Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.

Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:

Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.

Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.

Gladly. Read up. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. - Jeremiah

February 26, 2013

Following Alex Jones’ explosive appearance on CNN’s Piers Morgan Tonight last month, gun control advocates reacted to Jones’ fiery historical defense of the right to bear arms by attempting to dismiss the fact that tyrannical regimes always disarmed their target populations as a myth or a hoax.


Numerous left-wing blogs successfully gamed Google’s search engine results so that when people searched for terms such as ‘Nazi gun control’, they were met with a plethora of articles claiming the historical basis for this connection was a fabrication.

A meme has been launched claiming that historical gun grabs by dictatorships is a myth – an insulting attempt to literally re-write history in the name of pursuing a contemporary political agenda.

In reality, the Nazis did take existing gun control laws and make them more draconian in order to target their political adversaries. That is a manifestly provable historical fact.

Hitler disarmed his domestic enemies before launching a genocide against them.

The Nazi Weapons Law of November 11, 1938 prohibited Jews from “acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons,” and ordered them to turn in all guns and ammunition to local police. As historian William Sheridan Allen noted, the Nazis also began house to house gun confiscations targeting “subversives” shortly after they came to power.

In addition, historians like Israel Guttman have outlined how the Warsaw Ghetto uprising against the Nazis was hampered by the fact that imprisoned Jews did not have access to adequate arsenals of firearms, although their resistance did lead Goebbels to note in his diary: “This just shows what you can expect from Jews if they lay hands on weapons.”

Similarly, as J.E. Simkin and Aaron Zelman document in their book “Gun Control”: Gateway to Tyranny, in October 1918, the Council of People’s Commissars (the Communist government) ordered citizens to surrender all firearms, ammunition, and sabres, having first mandated registration of all weapons six months earlier. Just like the Nazis, Communist Party members were exempt from the ban.

A 1920 decree then imposed a minimum six month prison sentence for any non-Communist possessing a weapon. After the civil war, possession became punishable with three months hard labor plus fines. After Stalin came to power, he made possession of unlawful firearms a crime punishable by death.

Stalin disarmed his domestic enemies before launching a genocide against them.

With Russians almost universally disarmed, Stalin was given free reign to carry out one of history’s most brutal prolonged genocide, with tens of millions of people executed or starved to death in the three decades that followed, a model subsequently mimicked in China and Cambodia.

Brutal dictatorships have almost always been preceded by widespread gun confiscation, and to allow leftists to claim otherwise in the pursuit of their contemporary political agenda is an insult to the historical record.

H/T – This web page has an excellent and fully sourced list of all the countries where gun control was a pre-cursor to mass genocide.

*********************

All Communists share the same goal. Disarm the people in order to seize control. Hold fast to your 2nd amendment rights!

 

[Pogo]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZwVCjhq3YI]Star Trek - Nomad says "Non Sequitur" a few times - YouTube[/ame]

Hey Spoon--

What part of the term "off topic" needs a translation here?

 

[Saigon]

Jeremiah -

If we ever discuss gun control in Nazi Germany - that might be useful. Until then.....I have no idea at all why you would post it!

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Following Alex Jones’ explosive appearance on CNN’s Piers Morgan Tonight last month, gun control advocates reacted to Jones’ fiery historical defense of the right to bear arms by attempting to dismiss the fact that tyrannical regimes always disarmed their target populations as a myth or a hoax.


Numerous left-wing blogs successfully gamed Google’s search engine results so that when people searched for terms such as ‘Nazi gun control’, they were met with a plethora of articles claiming the historical basis for this connection was a fabrication.

A meme has been launched claiming that historical gun grabs by dictatorships is a myth – an insulting attempt to literally re-write history in the name of pursuing a contemporary political agenda.

In reality, the Nazis did take existing gun control laws and make them more draconian in order to target their political adversaries. That is a manifestly provable historical fact.

Hitler disarmed his domestic enemies before launching a genocide against them.

The Nazi Weapons Law of November 11, 1938 prohibited Jews from “acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons,” and ordered them to turn in all guns and ammunition to local police. As historian William Sheridan Allen noted, the Nazis also began house to house gun confiscations targeting “subversives” shortly after they came to power.

In addition, historians like Israel Guttman have outlined how the Warsaw Ghetto uprising against the Nazis was hampered by the fact that imprisoned Jews did not have access to adequate arsenals of firearms, although their resistance did lead Goebbels to note in his diary: “This just shows what you can expect from Jews if they lay hands on weapons.”

Similarly, as J.E. Simkin and Aaron Zelman document in their book “Gun Control”: Gateway to Tyranny, in October 1918, the Council of People’s Commissars (the Communist government) ordered citizens to surrender all firearms, ammunition, and sabres, having first mandated registration of all weapons six months earlier. Just like the Nazis, Communist Party members were exempt from the ban.

A 1920 decree then imposed a minimum six month prison sentence for any non-Communist possessing a weapon. After the civil war, possession became punishable with three months hard labor plus fines. After Stalin came to power, he made possession of unlawful firearms a crime punishable by death.

Stalin disarmed his domestic enemies before launching a genocide against them.

With Russians almost universally disarmed, Stalin was given free reign to carry out one of history’s most brutal prolonged genocide, with tens of millions of people executed or starved to death in the three decades that followed, a model subsequently mimicked in China and Cambodia.

Brutal dictatorships have almost always been preceded by widespread gun confiscation, and to allow leftists to claim otherwise in the pursuit of their contemporary political agenda is an insult to the historical record.

H/T – This web page has an excellent and fully sourced list of all the countries where gun control was a pre-cursor to mass genocide.

*********************

All Communists share the same goal. Disarm the people in order to seize control. Hold fast to your 2nd amendment rights!

I was just having a discussion about this with my friends. I told them that all of a sudden, google searches, and other search engines, were returning completely different results than what they originally were in the past, and every one of them were negative/propaganda.

How long do you think it will be before they rig searches on the Battle of Athens, Tennessee?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/the-f...tennesee-1946-ever-occured-2.html#post6876684

 

[Spoonman]

dude, you live in finland? like 1 in two people have a gun over there. also like only half of the estimated firearms are registered. you can own prety much the same stuff we can have over here.

Your stats are a bit off, but you are basically right!

Finland has the 4th highest gun ownership in the developed world.

Subsequently, we have a homicide rate that is a national disgrace, and one of the worst records in the world of school shootings.

We face the same issue the US does, but the difference seems to be that here the issue is not partisan. It can be talked about, and we should have safety-based regulation within a year or two.!

Important observation, much as the point I was making last night about the dramatic difference in tone we could expect if we were having the same debate in Canada. Most places you get raional debate; here we get soap opera: hair-on-fire meltdown, paranoia, ad hominem, an endless parade of strawmen and gainsaying.

Which is exactly what I mean by the words "culture" and "fetish".

good point about canada. canada has been successful keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens yet they have failed to stop the criminal element. gun control, doesn't work

 

[Saigon]

no sport, if you actually read the source data for the table you provided you will see that there was no gun survey done. all they did was take reported crime data and estimate how many guns that might relate to. nice try, but sorry, no cigar

Take any recent survey you like.

Most estimates (i.e. the recent HS survey) seem to be around 45%, and I'm comfortable with that. Obviously if you have access to better or more recent information than I do - go with that.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Jeremiah -

If we ever discuss gun control in Nazi Germany - that might be useful. Until then.....I have no idea at all why you would post it!

We have a communist in the white house or haven't you noticed? Wonder why he is trying to shred the constitution and your second amendment rights? Wonder no more.....

 

[Saigon]

good point about canada. canada has been successful keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens yet they have failed to stop the criminal element. gun control, doesn't work

How does Canada'a homide rate compare to that of the US?

 

[Spoonman]

Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets ​

• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)

• Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...

Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.

• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...​

• Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.​

• Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.

• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...​

• Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.

• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.​

• Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...

• Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)

• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...

• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...​

• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.

• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...​

Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.

Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:

Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.

Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.

Gladly. Read up. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. - Jeremiah

February 26, 2013

Following Alex Jones’ explosive appearance on CNN’s Piers Morgan Tonight last month, gun control advocates reacted to Jones’ fiery historical defense of the right to bear arms by attempting to dismiss the fact that tyrannical regimes always disarmed their target populations as a myth or a hoax.


Numerous left-wing blogs successfully gamed Google’s search engine results so that when people searched for terms such as ‘Nazi gun control’, they were met with a plethora of articles claiming the historical basis for this connection was a fabrication.

A meme has been launched claiming that historical gun grabs by dictatorships is a myth – an insulting attempt to literally re-write history in the name of pursuing a contemporary political agenda.

In reality, the Nazis did take existing gun control laws and make them more draconian in order to target their political adversaries. That is a manifestly provable historical fact.

Hitler disarmed his domestic enemies before launching a genocide against them.

The Nazi Weapons Law of November 11, 1938 prohibited Jews from “acquiring, possessing, and carrying firearms and ammunition, as well as truncheons or stabbing weapons,” and ordered them to turn in all guns and ammunition to local police. As historian William Sheridan Allen noted, the Nazis also began house to house gun confiscations targeting “subversives” shortly after they came to power.

In addition, historians like Israel Guttman have outlined how the Warsaw Ghetto uprising against the Nazis was hampered by the fact that imprisoned Jews did not have access to adequate arsenals of firearms, although their resistance did lead Goebbels to note in his diary: “This just shows what you can expect from Jews if they lay hands on weapons.”

Similarly, as J.E. Simkin and Aaron Zelman document in their book “Gun Control”: Gateway to Tyranny, in October 1918, the Council of People’s Commissars (the Communist government) ordered citizens to surrender all firearms, ammunition, and sabres, having first mandated registration of all weapons six months earlier. Just like the Nazis, Communist Party members were exempt from the ban.

A 1920 decree then imposed a minimum six month prison sentence for any non-Communist possessing a weapon. After the civil war, possession became punishable with three months hard labor plus fines. After Stalin came to power, he made possession of unlawful firearms a crime punishable by death.

Stalin disarmed his domestic enemies before launching a genocide against them.

With Russians almost universally disarmed, Stalin was given free reign to carry out one of history’s most brutal prolonged genocide, with tens of millions of people executed or starved to death in the three decades that followed, a model subsequently mimicked in China and Cambodia.

Brutal dictatorships have almost always been preceded by widespread gun confiscation, and to allow leftists to claim otherwise in the pursuit of their contemporary political agenda is an insult to the historical record.

H/T – This web page has an excellent and fully sourced list of all the countries where gun control was a pre-cursor to mass genocide.

*********************

All Communists share the same goal. Disarm the people in order to seize control. Hold fast to your 2nd amendment rights!

fact overload, the lefts heads will explode. what they fail to realize the greatest gun control efforts have been by dictators and the end result has been the greatest suffering by the population

 

[Saigon]

Jeremiah -

If we ever discuss gun control in Nazi Germany - that might be useful. Until then.....I have no idea at all why you would post it!

We have a communist in the white house or haven't you noticed? Wonder why he is trying to shred the constitution and your second amendment rights? Wonder no more.....

Ha, ha ha....now that IS funny!!!

Seriously, dude, if you don't know what the word 'communist' means - don't use it!!!

 

[Spoonman]