Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[Spoonman]

good point about canada. canada has been successful keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens yet they have failed to stop the criminal element. gun control, doesn't work

How does Canada'a homide rate compare to that of the US?

how did it compare before gun control laws? gun control laws have not reduced their rates any more than the rates in the USA have dropped with out gun control. the same can be said for the UK gun laws. Or the austrailian gun laws.

 

[Little-Acorn]

Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0

Of course... because the ones that WERE stopped by civilians, never became mass shootings in the first place.

The teacher in Pearl, Mississippi who stopped the student who had already killed two people, and who was on his way to another nearby school, doesn't get counted, because the student didn't kill more than two... thanks to the techer stopping him.

The nutcase in Colorado Springs who shot a couple of people there, was stopped by a woman (not a cop) who had a gun in her purse. And so that one didn't become a mass shooting either... and the desperate liberals happily don't count it.

This "new math" the liberals are employing in an effort to pretend guns carried by law-abiding citizens somehow don't help, is a lot like someone trying to prove that a certain brand of weeed killer isn't effective... by omitting all the examples where the weeds actually died.

The futitlity of these people is a wonder to behold.

 

[Pogo]

you mean his false arguments

No Spoon, I mean yours. This is the same strawman we saw all day yesterday; you guys keep setting up the same strawman and expecting different results. It's not selling. There is nothing in this thread about gun control. If you want such a thread, find the "post new topic" button. I won't be joining you because I'm not interested. Now quit derailing.

.
actually it is a counter the the 10 falicies of the OP. No one is buying that crap. except the koolaid drinking left with an agenda.

Come on Spoon, nobody's buying this Alex Beck Comix crapola. Strawman is your fallacy. You keep bringing him in here like some kind of pet. Who's going to clean the carpet?

For the umpteenth time, there is nothing about "gun control" in the OP or in the link. If there were you could quote it. It's not part of the argument. Not present. Does not exist. No one here by that name. 404. Not found. Void.

You don't get to declare what somebody else's point is on this planet. You just don't. Get your pet out of here and stay on the topic.

 

[Saigon]

good point about canada. canada has been successful keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens yet they have failed to stop the criminal element. gun control, doesn't work

How does Canada'a homide rate compare to that of the US?

how did it compare before gun control laws? gun control laws have not reduced their rates any more than the rates in the USA have dropped with out gun control. the same can be said for the UK gun laws. Or the austrailian gun laws.

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

 

[Spoonman]

No Spoon, I mean yours. This is the same strawman we saw all day yesterday; you guys keep setting up the same strawman and expecting different results. It's not selling. There is nothing in this thread about gun control. If you want such a thread, find the "post new topic" button. I won't be joining you because I'm not interested. Now quit derailing.

.
actually it is a counter the the 10 falicies of the OP. No one is buying that crap. except the koolaid drinking left with an agenda.

Come on Spoon, nobody's buying this Alex Beck Comix crapola. Strawman is your fallacy. You keep bringing him in here like some kind of pet. Who's going to clean the carpet?

For the umpteenth time, there is nothing about "gun control" in the OP or in the link. If there were you could quote it. It's not part of the argument. Not present. Does not exist. No one here by that name. 404. Not found. Void.

You don't get to declare what somebody else's point is on this planet. You just don't. Get your pet out of here and stay on the topic.

please pogo, every one of your 10 points has been proven to be false over and over. the entire op is a spin doctored liberal agenda. you just don't get it

 

[Spoonman]

How does Canada'a homide rate compare to that of the US?

how did it compare before gun control laws? gun control laws have not reduced their rates any more than the rates in the USA have dropped with out gun control. the same can be said for the UK gun laws. Or the austrailian gun laws.

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

and canadas gun control laws did not reduce their rate of homicide any more than than the rates have dropped in the usa without it. and thats what you ant gun nuts can't grasp. the gun laws have done nothing to reduce the rates. their rate were always lower. so gun laws have done nothing. nothing at all

 

[Saigon]

the same can be said for the UK gun laws.

I'm glad this came up - this is a myth we can put to bed right now.

Graphic: how the murder rate has fallen
Last year saw the lowest murder rate since 1983 and a fall in overall crime, according to figures released today by the Office of National Statistics.

Annual crime figures show that the homicide rate has fallen steeply over the last decade, from a high in 2002 when 172 deaths were identified as likely to have been caused by the family GP Dr Harold Shipman.

More broadly, overall crime dropped slightly to 3.97 million crimes, it's lowest figure in two decades.

Graphic: how the murder rate has fallen - Telegraph

The graph is in the link.

 

[Saigon]

and canadas gun control laws did not reduce their rate of homicide any more than than the rates have dropped in the usa without it. and thats what you ant gun nuts can't grasp. the gun laws have done nothing to reduce the rates. their rate were always lower. so gun laws have done nothing. nothing at all

 

[Spoonman]

the same can be said for the UK gun laws.

I'm glad this came up - this is a myth we can put to bed right now.

Graphic: how the murder rate has fallen
Last year saw the lowest murder rate since 1983 and a fall in overall crime, according to figures released today by the Office of National Statistics.

Annual crime figures show that the homicide rate has fallen steeply over the last decade, from a high in 2002 when 172 deaths were identified as likely to have been caused by the family GP Dr Harold Shipman.

More broadly, overall crime dropped slightly to 3.97 million crimes, it's lowest figure in two decades.

Graphic: how the murder rate has fallen - Telegraph

The graph is in the link.

since the gun laws in the UK have been in effect the homicide rateshave dropped at the same rates the they have in the USA. again, they started out with a lower rate then we had. but the laws have given them no greater advantage in reducing rates then we have achieved without them. gun laws are not effective

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Of course... because the ones that WERE stopped by civilians, never became mass shootings in the first place.

OMG LOGIC. Let's put it in pure mathematical logic, so anyone trying to say otherwise is an outright fool.


A = Hostile Shooter (at Target Location)

B = Armed Civilian (at Target Location)

X = Massing Shooting takes place (over 10 killed/injured)

E = A and B are unable to shoot each other, and pin each other down.

F = A is killed

G = B is killed

H = Victims escape

Common logic symbol reminders:
~ means "NOT
V means "OR"
^ means "AND"
--> means "IF"
<--> means "IF AND ONLY IF"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[~A ^ ~B] --> ~X
[A ^ ~B] --> ~H
[~A ^ B] --> ~X

But for the fourth case:

[A ^ B] --> [~F and ~G] --> [E ^ H] --> ~X

[A ^ B] --> [F and ~G] --> H --> ~X

[A ^ B] --> [~F and G] --> [~E ^ ~H] --> X

[A ^ B] --> [F and G] --> [H] --> ~X

What does this logic prove, that if there is just ONE armed civilian to stop a POTENTIAL mass shooting, he has a RAW 75% chance to stopping the shooting from even happening, therefore there is NO mass shooting to begin with.

However, in reality, this RAW 75% chance is even higher, since the shooters on both sides aren't going to have an "Old West Duel" and say "draw." The first scenario (~F and ~G) therefore E, is most likely.

 

[Spoonman]

and canadas gun control laws did not reduce their rate of homicide any more than than the rates have dropped in the usa without it. and thats what you ant gun nuts can't grasp. the gun laws have done nothing to reduce the rates. their rate were always lower. so gun laws have done nothing. nothing at all

he look at that, no different than the rate of decrease in the USA - without gun control laws.

post all the charts you want. you can't show me a significantly greater decrease with gun laws than we achieve without them. chart away

 

[Saigon]

It's great we've been able to put two myths to bed in the past couple of minutes.

Firstly, we have seen that the gun control laws in the UK have caused a very significant drop in homicide rates during the past decade.

Secondly, we have seen that gun control laws in Canada have also caused a significant drop in the violence crime rate in Canada - a figure that had been rising strongly for the previous decade.

Interesting stuff.....I think that's it for me today!

 

[Pogo]

.
actually it is a counter the the 10 falicies of the OP. No one is buying that crap. except the koolaid drinking left with an agenda.

Come on Spoon, nobody's buying this Alex Beck Comix crapola. Strawman is your fallacy. You keep bringing him in here like some kind of pet. Who's going to clean the carpet?

For the umpteenth time, there is nothing about "gun control" in the OP or in the link. If there were you could quote it. It's not part of the argument. Not present. Does not exist. No one here by that name. 404. Not found. Void.

You don't get to declare what somebody else's point is on this planet. You just don't. Get your pet out of here and stay on the topic.

please pogo, every one of your 10 points has been proven to be false over and over. the entire op is a spin doctored liberal agenda. you just don't get it

No Spoon, you are wrong here. I see exactly what you're doing; you can't address the topic so you want to change it to something else - a posit that was never made. The topic is what the myths are. That's it. You're trying to morph it from "what it is" into "what to do about it" -- and your assumption on what to do about it is both uncreative and a fabrication.

Again if it were there you could quote it. It isn't so you can't. Busted. Now get over it already.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's great we've been able to put two myths to bed in the past couple of minutes.

Firstly, we have seen that the gun control laws in the UK have caused a very significant drop in homicide rates during the past decade.

Secondly, we have seen that gun control laws in Canada have also caused a significant drop in the violence crime rate in Canada - a figure that had been rising strongly for the previous decade.

Interesting stuff.....I think that's it for me today!

Actually you repeat myths and then declare victory.
Gu control laws in the UK caused violent crime to increase. Just not gun crime.
Gun control laws did not cause a significant drop in violence in Canada any more than loosening gun laws caused almost exactly the same drop in the U.S.

Your powers of reasoning are very very poor.

 

[The Rabbi]

Come on Spoon, nobody's buying this Alex Beck Comix crapola. Strawman is your fallacy. You keep bringing him in here like some kind of pet. Who's going to clean the carpet?

For the umpteenth time, there is nothing about "gun control" in the OP or in the link. If there were you could quote it. It's not part of the argument. Not present. Does not exist. No one here by that name. 404. Not found. Void.

You don't get to declare what somebody else's point is on this planet. You just don't. Get your pet out of here and stay on the topic.

please pogo, every one of your 10 points has been proven to be false over and over. the entire op is a spin doctored liberal agenda. you just don't get it

No Spoon, you are wrong here. I see exactly what you're doing; you can't address the topic so you want to change it to something else - a posit that was never made. The topic is what the myths are. That's it. You're trying to morph it from "what it is" into "what to do about it" -- and your assumption on what to do about it is both uncreative and a fabrication.

Again if it were there you could quote it. It isn't so you can't. Busted. Now get over it already.

Every "myth" has been refuted numerous times. Merely repeating them does not make them any more true.

 

[Saigon]

Gu control laws in the UK caused violent crime to increase.

Right.


How the murder rate has fallen

Last year saw the lowest murder rate since 1983 and a fall in overall crime, according to figures released today by the Office of National Statistics.

Annual crime figures show that the homicide rate has fallen steeply over the last decade, from a high in 2002 when 172 deaths were identified as likely to have been caused by the family GP Dr Harold Shipman.

More broadly, overall crime dropped slightly to 3.97 million crimes, it's lowest figure in two decades.

Graphic: how the murder rate has fallen - Telegraph

 

[Spoonman]

Gu control laws in the UK caused violent crime to increase.

Right.


How the murder rate has fallen

Last year saw the lowest murder rate since 1983 and a fall in overall crime, according to figures released today by the Office of National Statistics.

Annual crime figures show that the homicide rate has fallen steeply over the last decade, from a high in 2002 when 172 deaths were identified as likely to have been caused by the family GP Dr Harold Shipman.

More broadly, overall crime dropped slightly to 3.97 million crimes, it's lowest figure in two decades.

Graphic: how the murder rate has fallen - Telegraph

same within the usa, and guess what. with out gun bans. so bottom line we don't need a gun ban to achieve the same rates countries with strict gun laws achieve.

 

[Spoonman]

Gun Control's Twisted Outcome

 

[Spoonman]

Guns and Violence: The English Experience - Joyce Lee Malcolm - Google Books

 

[Pogo]

how did it compare before gun control laws? gun control laws have not reduced their rates any more than the rates in the USA have dropped with out gun control. the same can be said for the UK gun laws. Or the austrailian gun laws.

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

and canadas gun control laws did not reduce their rate of homicide any more than than the rates have dropped in the usa without it. and thats what you ant gun nuts can't grasp. the gun laws have done nothing to reduce the rates. their rate were always lower. so gun laws have done nothing. nothing at all

Actually I tend to agree -- I haven't seen all those Canadian data and not sure any of us has a way to isolate a single factor, but I tend to agree about the ineffectiveness of gun control laws, so for the moment let's stipulate your point. So if we agree gun control laws are not relevant, then why are you trying so hard to make it the topic here?

From there, and since we went to Canada, I'll repost this.... there's more info on Canadian data in the links:

I give you two cities, split by a river, kinda like Minneapolis and St. Paul are but this is a different pair of cities.

Obviously being next to each other, these cities have much in common regionally, climatically, industrially and so on. They are less than a mile apart, connected by a bridge and a tunnel. But the two cities show a stark difference in one area.

The city to the west recorded 377 total homicides in 2011 and 327 in 2010, according to police statistics(1), carrying a homicide rate of around 50 per 100,000 people
Across the bridge in the same time period, there was a total of one. For both years put together. A rate of 0.30. From September 27, 2009 to November 22, 2011 in that city, there were no murders at all. Zero.

What's going on here?

One of them is in Canada. The cities are Detroit and Windsor.

Pertinent to this thread, I haven't determined how many of those homicides were committed by firearm, but for a guide, out of 386 Detroit homicides in 2012, 333 were by firearm. Over 86%. (1)

And the one murder that finally broke the 2011 streak in Windsor? It was a stabbing.

People in his city of about 215,000 have a saying, Blaine said Friday afternoon: "In Windsor, when a 7-Eleven is held up, it usually is a knife. In Detroit, it is an Uzi."
It's not that there's no crime in Windsor, an industrial city that has seen its own economic challenges. "We're no different than any other major metropolitan area," Corey said. (here)

704 to 1 in homicide; several hundred to zero in gun deaths.
Detroit: at or near the highest murder rate in its country; Windsor: lowest in its country.
Less than a mile apart.

What's driving the difference? Gun control? Or gun culture? Discuss.

Resources/further reading:
(1) 2012 Crime/Homicide Stats

(2) Freep.com 1/3/13

A Tale of Two Cities

Murder-Free Two Years