Ten Gun Myths and Memes-- Shot Down

[The Rabbi]

Detroit is filled with poor shvartes. Windsor is not.

You can look at Memphis and Knoxville and see that memphis' crime rate is 80% higher than Knoxville, despite being in the same state with the same laws.

 

[Pogo]

Gu control laws in the UK caused violent crime to increase.

Right.


How the murder rate has fallen

Last year saw the lowest murder rate since 1983 and a fall in overall crime, according to figures released today by the Office of National Statistics.

Annual crime figures show that the homicide rate has fallen steeply over the last decade, from a high in 2002 when 172 deaths were identified as likely to have been caused by the family GP Dr Harold Shipman.

More broadly, overall crime dropped slightly to 3.97 million crimes, it's lowest figure in two decades.

Graphic: how the murder rate has fallen - Telegraph

same within the usa, and guess what. with out gun bans. so bottom line we don't need a gun ban to achieve the same rates countries with strict gun laws achieve.

No.
Body.
Brought.
Up.
"Gun.
Bans".​

Except this guy:

 

[OKTexas]

Okay..............so you gun rights people have said that guns don't kill people, but rather that people kill people.

Don't you think that background checks should be implemented then? We'd be able to identify those that may be a bit off who think it's okay to kill others. Even if it means a gun, a knife, a baseball bat, or even a pillow to smother them.

Background checks would help a great deal. Even LaPierre said it was a good idea in the late 90's, but then he decided to go against what he'd said, because Obama said it was a sound idea.

I've said I would have no problem making NICS available to the public so a gun owner could do a check prior to selling his weapon. Only problem with NICS is the data base is very incomplete.

 

[Bigfoot]

How does Canada'a homide rate compare to that of the US?

how did it compare before gun control laws? gun control laws have not reduced their rates any more than the rates in the USA have dropped with out gun control. the same can be said for the UK gun laws. Or the austrailian gun laws.

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

9,147 is too many. The solution is not more gun laws that will adversely effect law abiding citizens. The problem that has affected the murder rate is gang violence. Black on Black crime in the inter cities. Latino drug gang violence is also growing at an alarming rate. These guns laws that some are advocating so vigorously have their greatest effect (by far) on those of us who believe that following the law is important.

Now you (and others) are cheer-leading turning many of those good law abiding folks who do not harm ANYONE into possible criminals by trying to force them into a corner with often inexperienced and wishful ideals that will not achieve the desired results. If the powers that be would institute laws that would affect the real problem (s) then we would all come together as a people to support those laws and we would not be having these divisive arguments.

I do not believe that you are and most others with your point of view are bad people. Why do folks on your side of the argument continually demean law abiding citizens? (comment not aimed at you personally Saigon). I believe the answer to that question is implicit in the fact that very often the anti-gun people have no experience with the the subject. The folks you guys are arguing with would be completely supportive of you and your ideals of trying to lower gun violence if the proposed solutions made sense to us. Right now we all agree (you and I) and untold thousands of others that lowering the rate of seriously violent crimes is an excellent endeavor. Are we not intelligent enough as a people to find a path that we can all agree upon without limiting the Rights of folks who do no harm?

 

[Spoonman]

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

and canadas gun control laws did not reduce their rate of homicide any more than than the rates have dropped in the usa without it. and thats what you ant gun nuts can't grasp. the gun laws have done nothing to reduce the rates. their rate were always lower. so gun laws have done nothing. nothing at all

Actually I tend to agree -- I haven't seen all those Canadian data and not sure any of us has a way to isolate a single factor, but I tend to agree about the ineffectiveness of gun control laws, so for the moment let's stipulate your point. So if we agree gun control laws are not relevant, then why are you trying so hard to make it the topic here?

From there, and since we went to Canada, I'll repost this.... there's more info on Canadian data in the links:

I give you two cities, split by a river, kinda like Minneapolis and St. Paul are but this is a different pair of cities.

Obviously being next to each other, these cities have much in common regionally, climatically, industrially and so on. They are less than a mile apart, connected by a bridge and a tunnel. But the two cities show a stark difference in one area.

The city to the west recorded 377 total homicides in 2011 and 327 in 2010, according to police statistics(1), carrying a homicide rate of around 50 per 100,000 people
Across the bridge in the same time period, there was a total of one. For both years put together. A rate of 0.30. From September 27, 2009 to November 22, 2011 in that city, there were no murders at all. Zero.

What's going on here?

One of them is in Canada. The cities are Detroit and Windsor.

Pertinent to this thread, I haven't determined how many of those homicides were committed by firearm, but for a guide, out of 386 Detroit homicides in 2012, 333 were by firearm. Over 86%. (1)

And the one murder that finally broke the 2011 streak in Windsor? It was a stabbing.

People in his city of about 215,000 have a saying, Blaine said Friday afternoon: "In Windsor, when a 7-Eleven is held up, it usually is a knife. In Detroit, it is an Uzi."
It's not that there's no crime in Windsor, an industrial city that has seen its own economic challenges. "We're no different than any other major metropolitan area," Corey said. (here)

704 to 1 in homicide; several hundred to zero in gun deaths.
Detroit: at or near the highest murder rate in its country; Windsor: lowest in its country.
Less than a mile apart.

What's driving the difference? Gun control? Or gun culture? Discuss.

Resources/further reading:
(1) 2012 Crime/Homicide Stats

(2) Freep.com 1/3/13

A Tale of Two Cities

Murder-Free Two Years

i think culture has everything to do with it. and it's not just gun culture. it's culture in general . which is why in countries like finland and switzerland who have high rates of gun ownership you see far less gun violence. and if you break down where the bulk of the gun violence takes place, what really drives up our statistics, its the inner city clashes. whether it be drug related, territory related, gang related, crime related. it's not the sandy hooks or the aurora's, they just get the media attention. we have gone from a society of i'll kick you ass to a society of i'll fuck you up. in that culture, someone disses you, you have to take them out. you no longer just beat them up, you kill them. and we glorify the thug mentality in our media, our movies, our music. guns are not the problem. its the attitudes. take away guns, the attitudes still remain. botom line, that group will still get guns. the black market will just grow. ban guns, the attitudes still remain. politicians know they can't easily address it, so the solution is the placebo - ban guns. it doesn't work. we are not fixing any problems, we are not addressing any issues. and pretending we are by applying a bandaid set of laws and in the process significantly impacting a very large group of law abiding citizens is dead wrong.

 

[Pogo]

please pogo, every one of your 10 points has been proven to be false over and over. the entire op is a spin doctored liberal agenda. you just don't get it

No Spoon, you are wrong here. I see exactly what you're doing; you can't address the topic so you want to change it to something else - a posit that was never made. The topic is what the myths are. That's it. You're trying to morph it from "what it is" into "what to do about it" -- and your assumption on what to do about it is both uncreative and a fabrication.

Again if it were there you could quote it. It isn't so you can't. Busted. Now get over it already.

Every "myth" has been refuted numerous times. Merely repeating them does not make them any more true.

That's not the point there. We can debate, prove, disprove, support or refute the points that actually exist in the OP article. Spoon's trying to pull one out of his ass that doesn't exist there.

If they were to include "gun control" they might have printed something like "Myth 16: Gun control laws don't work" or something. But they didn't. Perhaps they wanted to but found out it couldn't be refuted, I don't know, but it's not there. He doesn't seem to understand that he can't just make up his own story and then tear it down.

 

[Pogo]

and canadas gun control laws did not reduce their rate of homicide any more than than the rates have dropped in the usa without it. and thats what you ant gun nuts can't grasp. the gun laws have done nothing to reduce the rates. their rate were always lower. so gun laws have done nothing. nothing at all

Actually I tend to agree -- I haven't seen all those Canadian data and not sure any of us has a way to isolate a single factor, but I tend to agree about the ineffectiveness of gun control laws, so for the moment let's stipulate your point. So if we agree gun control laws are not relevant, then why are you trying so hard to make it the topic here?

From there, and since we went to Canada, I'll repost this.... there's more info on Canadian data in the links:

I give you two cities, split by a river, kinda like Minneapolis and St. Paul are but this is a different pair of cities.

Obviously being next to each other, these cities have much in common regionally, climatically, industrially and so on. They are less than a mile apart, connected by a bridge and a tunnel. But the two cities show a stark difference in one area.

The city to the west recorded 377 total homicides in 2011 and 327 in 2010, according to police statistics(1), carrying a homicide rate of around 50 per 100,000 people
Across the bridge in the same time period, there was a total of one. For both years put together. A rate of 0.30. From September 27, 2009 to November 22, 2011 in that city, there were no murders at all. Zero.

What's going on here?

One of them is in Canada. The cities are Detroit and Windsor.

Pertinent to this thread, I haven't determined how many of those homicides were committed by firearm, but for a guide, out of 386 Detroit homicides in 2012, 333 were by firearm. Over 86%. (1)

And the one murder that finally broke the 2011 streak in Windsor? It was a stabbing.

People in his city of about 215,000 have a saying, Blaine said Friday afternoon: "In Windsor, when a 7-Eleven is held up, it usually is a knife. In Detroit, it is an Uzi."
It's not that there's no crime in Windsor, an industrial city that has seen its own economic challenges. "We're no different than any other major metropolitan area," Corey said. (here)

704 to 1 in homicide; several hundred to zero in gun deaths.
Detroit: at or near the highest murder rate in its country; Windsor: lowest in its country.
Less than a mile apart.

What's driving the difference? Gun control? Or gun culture? Discuss.

Resources/further reading:
(1) 2012 Crime/Homicide Stats

(2) Freep.com 1/3/13

A Tale of Two Cities

Murder-Free Two Years

i think culture has everything to do with it. and it's not just gun culture. it's culture in general . which is why in countries like finland and switzerland who have high rates of gun ownership you see far less gun violence. and if you break down where the bulk of the gun violence takes place, what really drives up our statistics, its the inner city clashes. whether it be drug related, territory related, gang related, crime related. it's not the sandy hooks or the aurora's, they just get the media attention. we have gone from a society of i'll kick you ass to a society of i'll fuck you up. in that culture, someone disses you, you have to take them out. you no longer just beat them up, you kill them. and we glorify the thug mentality in our media, our movies, our music. guns are not the problem. its the attitudes. take away guns, the attitudes still remain. botom line, that group will still get guns. the black market will just grow. ban guns, the attitudes still remain. politicians know they can't easily address it, so the solution is the placebo - ban guns. it doesn't work. we are not fixing any problems, we are not addressing any issues. and pretending we are by applying a bandaid set of laws and in the process significantly impacting a very large group of law abiding citizens is dead wrong.

Much much better. I agree, and well said.

Good to have you back.

 

[Spoonman]

How does Canada'a homide rate compare to that of the US?

how did it compare before gun control laws? gun control laws have not reduced their rates any more than the rates in the USA have dropped with out gun control. the same can be said for the UK gun laws. Or the austrailian gun laws.

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

of course you will provide a link to your 9147 gun murders in the usa for last year

 

[Saigon]

of course you will provide a link to your 9147 gun murders in the usa for last year

I already did - it was linked earlier.

But here it is again:

Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | guardian.co.uk

btw. Finland does have a terrible record of gun violence. We are NOT a good example for the US to follow!!

 

[Pogo]

how did it compare before gun control laws? gun control laws have not reduced their rates any more than the rates in the USA have dropped with out gun control. the same can be said for the UK gun laws. Or the austrailian gun laws.

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

9,147 is too many. The solution is not more gun laws that will adversely effect law abiding citizens. The problem that has affected the murder rate is gang violence. Black on Black crime in the inter cities. Latino drug gang violence is also growing at an alarming rate. These guns laws that some are advocating so vigorously have their greatest effect (by far) on those of us who believe that following the law is important.

Now you (and others) are cheer-leading turning many of those good law abiding folks who do not harm ANYONE into possible criminals by trying to force them into a corner with often inexperienced and wishful ideals that will not achieve the desired results. If the powers that be would institute laws that would affect the real problem (s) then we would all come together as a people to support those laws and we would not be having these divisive arguments.

I do not believe that you are and most others with your point of view are bad people. Why do folks on your side of the argument continually demean law abiding citizens? (comment not aimed at you personally Saigon). I believe the answer to that question is implicit in the fact that very often the anti-gun people have no experience with the the subject. The folks you guys are arguing with would be completely supportive of you and your ideals of trying to lower gun violence if the proposed solutions made sense to us. Right now we all agree that (you and I) and untold thousands of others that lowering the rate of seriously violent crimes is an excellent endeavor. Are we not intelligent enough as a people to find a path that we can all agree upon without limiting the Rights of folks who do no harm?

--such as...... trying to shut down a dialogue from happening at all?

Couldn't resist ... time to pay the piper

 

[Spoonman]

of course you will provide a link to your 9147 gun murders in the usa for last year

I already did - it was linked earlier.

But here it is again:

Gun homicides and gun ownership listed by country | News | guardian.co.uk

mmm, that isn't 2012 data, or even 2011 or even 2010. i don't know where they are pulling their info from but it is obviously flawed

 

[The Rabbi]

If you include suicides as well as gang shootings then probably, yes.
So what? What legislation will eliminate gangs?

 

[Bigfoot]

I somehow didn't think you'd want to answer that....

Canada had 173 gun-related murders last year. The US had 9,147.

So which country has the best record?

9,147 is too many. The solution is not more gun laws that will adversely effect law abiding citizens. The problem that has affected the murder rate is gang violence. Black on Black crime in the inter cities. Latino drug gang violence is also growing at an alarming rate. These guns laws that some are advocating so vigorously have their greatest effect (by far) on those of us who believe that following the law is important.

Now you (and others) are cheer-leading turning many of those good law abiding folks who do not harm ANYONE into possible criminals by trying to force them into a corner with often inexperienced and wishful ideals that will not achieve the desired results. If the powers that be would institute laws that would affect the real problem (s) then we would all come together as a people to support those laws and we would not be having these divisive arguments.

I do not believe that you are and most others with your point of view are bad people. Why do folks on your side of the argument continually demean law abiding citizens? (comment not aimed at you personally Saigon). I believe the answer to that question is implicit in the fact that very often the anti-gun people have no experience with the the subject. The folks you guys are arguing with would be completely supportive of you and your ideals of trying to lower gun violence if the proposed solutions made sense to us. Right now we all agree that (you and I) and untold thousands of others that lowering the rate of seriously violent crimes is an excellent endeavor. Are we not intelligent enough as a people to find a path that we can all agree upon without limiting the Rights of folks who do no harm?

--such as...... trying to shut down a dialogue from happening at all?

Couldn't resist ... time to pay the piper

Heh, that's in your imagination and I also explained that in yesterday's post.

 

[Saigon]

mmm, that isn't 2012 data, or even 2011 or even 2010. i don't know where they are pulling their info from but it is obviously flawed

I haven't checked - but I can tell you from personal experience that the Guardian has amongt the most rigorous editorial standards of any newspaper in the world. If they publish it - it will be solid.

 

[Spoonman]

mmm, that isn't 2012 data, or even 2011 or even 2010. i don't know where they are pulling their info from but it is obviously flawed

I haven't checked - but I can tell you from personal experience that the Guardian has amongt the most rigorous editorial standards of any newspaper in the world. If they publish it - it will be solid.

and there you have it. if they say so, it must be true.

 

[Saigon]

mmm, that isn't 2012 data, or even 2011 or even 2010. i don't know where they are pulling their info from but it is obviously flawed

I haven't checked - but I can tell you from personal experience that the Guardian has amongt the most rigorous editorial standards of any newspaper in the world. If they publish it - it will be solid.

and there you have it. if they say so, it must be true.

With the Guardian then yes - that is correct.

Again, they are one of the most scrupulous media sources on the planet. You may not agree with what they say - I usually don't - but they are very reliable.

 

[Pogo]

9,147 is too many. The solution is not more gun laws that will adversely effect law abiding citizens. The problem that has affected the murder rate is gang violence. Black on Black crime in the inter cities. Latino drug gang violence is also growing at an alarming rate. These guns laws that some are advocating so vigorously have their greatest effect (by far) on those of us who believe that following the law is important.

Now you (and others) are cheer-leading turning many of those good law abiding folks who do not harm ANYONE into possible criminals by trying to force them into a corner with often inexperienced and wishful ideals that will not achieve the desired results. If the powers that be would institute laws that would affect the real problem (s) then we would all come together as a people to support those laws and we would not be having these divisive arguments.

I do not believe that you are and most others with your point of view are bad people. Why do folks on your side of the argument continually demean law abiding citizens? (comment not aimed at you personally Saigon). I believe the answer to that question is implicit in the fact that very often the anti-gun people have no experience with the the subject. The folks you guys are arguing with would be completely supportive of you and your ideals of trying to lower gun violence if the proposed solutions made sense to us. Right now we all agree that (you and I) and untold thousands of others that lowering the rate of seriously violent crimes is an excellent endeavor. Are we not intelligent enough as a people to find a path that we can all agree upon without limiting the Rights of folks who do no harm?

--such as...... trying to shut down a dialogue from happening at all?

Couldn't resist ... time to pay the piper

Heh, that's in your imagination and I also explained that in yesterday's post.

Actually it's in my inbox with all the others, and no I never saw an explanation.
You notice I never did neg you back? That's because I haven't seen a post of yours that would justify it. Not that I'm looking, that's just my standard. Your neggage may vary.

I'll happily agree on point A and disagree on point B but I will never agree that dialogue should be shut down. You can take that to the bank.

 

[Spoonman]

I haven't checked - but I can tell you from personal experience that the Guardian has amongt the most rigorous editorial standards of any newspaper in the world. If they publish it - it will be solid.

and there you have it. if they say so, it must be true.

With the Guardian then yes - that is correct.

Again, they are one of the most scrupulous media sources on the planet. You may not agree with what they say - I usually don't - but they are very reliable.

i'll trust the FBI consolidated crime statistics for the USA over them

 

[Bigfoot]

(snipped)

I'll happily agree on point A and disagree on point B but I will never agree that dialogue should be shut down. You can take that to the bank.

Nothing personal but I don't give a shit. I just come by here for the laughs. ~shrug~

 

[Uncensored2008]

Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets ​

I suspect that very little, to virtually none of what the hate site you cut & pasted from, is true and correct.

I also suspect that many others have already refuted the lies you posted.