The Bible contradiction thread

[hobelim]

Yeah, I am as bad as they come, a genuine psycho.


"I will give you hidden treasures from dark vaults hoarded in secret places"

"Now I show you new things, hidden things, that you did not know before."

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it, buried it again."

Time was when many were aghast at you, my people, and so now many nations recoil at sight of him. For they see what they had never been told and things unheard before fill their thoughts."

Yes. A genuine psycho. They used fancy language to dupe fools like you into believing your eureka moments actually mean something. They dont.

Your propaganda writers have led you by the nose, borrowed some ethics learned from secular society at the time, wove in some colorful alliterations and fooled you and others into believing in a deity, a heaven, a hell and other retarded magical shit because you, like them, are a ripe and gullible lemming so easy to manipulate by words.

Oh really? What religion or church teaches anything at all like what I have just shown you?

Non sequitur.

Your decoder ring fallacy is just one of the abundant interpretations that even biblical scholars cant decide on, and the problem with it is that its no better than the rest. Speculation, hearsay, interpretive, not empirically justified and worst of all - borrowed.

As it all is.

There was nothing proprietary to TEACH regarding human behavior and how it works.

You can cross your fingers, squint your eyes as hard as you can and pretend yeshua is real and that your "hidden" (lol) ethics were profound and not easily observed by any rational being in nature...but at the end of the day, your left with just a pile of shitty, and unjustified claims like any other deist.

Now you are just full of shit.

I never made any claim of anything being profound. In fact its the exact opposite. Easy enough for anyone with a second grade education to understand.

You make claims, you merely fail to justify them.

Talking serpent is easy to pin-point as a metaphor.

A directly codified way to treat a raped daughter is not.

And the writers really fucked you in the ass by claiming wisdom that they don't have and shuffling it in with wisdom that mostly everyone had - - you're just a sucker of a different kind because you believe that instead of claiming to provide the actual details of origins...the book is in fact just a "hidden teachings" how-to book for dummies which teaches ethical bullshit that everyone already knew...and worse, it teaches ethics that are barbaric by today's standards so it lacks clear wisdom in that regard.

The barbaric behavior recorded is the direct result of the people turning aside from the way that Moses taught to follow the law and a fulfillment of the consequent promised self aggrandizing maledictions.

Everyone knows that the book has been revised and redacted by numerous unknown editors throughout its history.

Its really not that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[G.T.]

Yes. A genuine psycho. They used fancy language to dupe fools like you into believing your eureka moments actually mean something. They dont.

Your propaganda writers have led you by the nose, borrowed some ethics learned from secular society at the time, wove in some colorful alliterations and fooled you and others into believing in a deity, a heaven, a hell and other retarded magical shit because you, like them, are a ripe and gullible lemming so easy to manipulate by words.

Oh really? What religion or church teaches anything at all like what I have just shown you?

Non sequitur.

Your decoder ring fallacy is just one of the abundant interpretations that even biblical scholars cant decide on, and the problem with it is that its no better than the rest. Speculation, hearsay, interpretive, not empirically justified and worst of all - borrowed.

As it all is.

There was nothing proprietary to TEACH regarding human behavior and how it works.

You can cross your fingers, squint your eyes as hard as you can and pretend yeshua is real and that your "hidden" (lol) ethics were profound and not easily observed by any rational being in nature...but at the end of the day, your left with just a pile of shitty, and unjustified claims like any other deist.

Now you are just full of shit.

I never made any claim of anything being profound. In fact its the exact opposite. Easy enough for anyone with a second grade education to understand.

You make claims, you merely fail to justify them.

Talking serpent is easy to pin-point as a metaphor.

A directly codified way to treat a raped daughter is not.

And the writers really fucked you in the ass by claiming wisdom that they don't have and shuffling it in with wisdom that mostly everyone had - - you're just a sucker of a different kind because you believe that instead of claiming to provide the actual details of origins...the book is in fact just a "hidden teachings" how-to book for dummies which teaches ethical bullshit that everyone already knew...and worse, it teaches ethics that are barbaric by today's standards so it lacks clear wisdom in that regard.

The barbaric behavior recorded is the direct result of the people turning aside from the way that Moses taught to follow the law and a fulfillment of the consequent maledictions.

Everyone knows that the book have been revised and redacted by numerous unknown editors throughout its history.

Its really not that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

It's not hard for anyone who spins, like you do.

You hand wave and dismiss the parts you don't like - and that's an obvious problem for the parts that you do. You couldn't begin to understand the contradiction there, it seems.

Salami and bacon, amen. Parts you like are actual, parts you dont are added and edited.

LOL!

The o.t. condoned slavery, not metaphorical slavery but very descript slavery that was ACCURATE to the time it was written.
The o.t. advised how yeshua wanted folks to behave in the spoils of waR....not metaphorical wars, but wars that were ACTUALLY occurring at that historical time. Rape was condoned.

You can hand wave that all away with your decoder ring fallacy, but that's just a function of your sheepish gullibility, like all of the rest.

 

[hobelim]

Oh really? What religion or church teaches anything at all like what I have just shown you?

Non sequitur.

Your decoder ring fallacy is just one of the abundant interpretations that even biblical scholars cant decide on, and the problem with it is that its no better than the rest. Speculation, hearsay, interpretive, not empirically justified and worst of all - borrowed.

As it all is.

There was nothing proprietary to TEACH regarding human behavior and how it works.

You can cross your fingers, squint your eyes as hard as you can and pretend yeshua is real and that your "hidden" (lol) ethics were profound and not easily observed by any rational being in nature...but at the end of the day, your left with just a pile of shitty, and unjustified claims like any other deist.

Now you are just full of shit.

I never made any claim of anything being profound. In fact its the exact opposite. Easy enough for anyone with a second grade education to understand.

You make claims, you merely fail to justify them.

Talking serpent is easy to pin-point as a metaphor.

A directly codified way to treat a raped daughter is not.

And the writers really fucked you in the ass by claiming wisdom that they don't have and shuffling it in with wisdom that mostly everyone had - - you're just a sucker of a different kind because you believe that instead of claiming to provide the actual details of origins...the book is in fact just a "hidden teachings" how-to book for dummies which teaches ethical bullshit that everyone already knew...and worse, it teaches ethics that are barbaric by today's standards so it lacks clear wisdom in that regard.

The barbaric behavior recorded is the direct result of the people turning aside from the way that Moses taught to follow the law and a fulfillment of the consequent maledictions.

Everyone knows that the book have been revised and redacted by numerous unknown editors throughout its history.

Its really not that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

It's not hard for anyone who spins, like you do.

You hand wave and dismiss the parts you don't like - and that's an obvious problem for the parts that you do. You couldn't begin to understand the contradiction there, it seems.

Salami and bacon, amen. Parts you like are actual, parts you dont are added and edited.

LOL!

The o.t. condoned slavery, not metaphorical slavery but very descript slavery that was ACCURATE to the time it was written.
The o.t. advised how yeshua wanted folks to behave in the spoils of waR....not metaphorical wars, but wars that were ACTUALLY occurring at that historical time.

You can hand wave that all away with your decoder ring fallacy, but that's just a function of your sheepish gullibility, like all of the rest.

when you read a letter from Paul in jail exhorting believers to be good christians and at the end there is an "also, submit to the emperor" tacked on, (who happened to be Nero), you can assume its not a teaching from God.

Was that hard?

 

[G.T.]

Non sequitur.

Your decoder ring fallacy is just one of the abundant interpretations that even biblical scholars cant decide on, and the problem with it is that its no better than the rest. Speculation, hearsay, interpretive, not empirically justified and worst of all - borrowed.

As it all is.

There was nothing proprietary to TEACH regarding human behavior and how it works.

You can cross your fingers, squint your eyes as hard as you can and pretend yeshua is real and that your "hidden" (lol) ethics were profound and not easily observed by any rational being in nature...but at the end of the day, your left with just a pile of shitty, and unjustified claims like any other deist.

Now you are just full of shit.

I never made any claim of anything being profound. In fact its the exact opposite. Easy enough for anyone with a second grade education to understand.

You make claims, you merely fail to justify them.

Talking serpent is easy to pin-point as a metaphor.

A directly codified way to treat a raped daughter is not.

And the writers really fucked you in the ass by claiming wisdom that they don't have and shuffling it in with wisdom that mostly everyone had - - you're just a sucker of a different kind because you believe that instead of claiming to provide the actual details of origins...the book is in fact just a "hidden teachings" how-to book for dummies which teaches ethical bullshit that everyone already knew...and worse, it teaches ethics that are barbaric by today's standards so it lacks clear wisdom in that regard.

The barbaric behavior recorded is the direct result of the people turning aside from the way that Moses taught to follow the law and a fulfillment of the consequent maledictions.

Everyone knows that the book have been revised and redacted by numerous unknown editors throughout its history.

Its really not that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

It's not hard for anyone who spins, like you do.

You hand wave and dismiss the parts you don't like - and that's an obvious problem for the parts that you do. You couldn't begin to understand the contradiction there, it seems.

Salami and bacon, amen. Parts you like are actual, parts you dont are added and edited.

LOL!

The o.t. condoned slavery, not metaphorical slavery but very descript slavery that was ACCURATE to the time it was written.
The o.t. advised how yeshua wanted folks to behave in the spoils of waR....not metaphorical wars, but wars that were ACTUALLY occurring at that historical time.

You can hand wave that all away with your decoder ring fallacy, but that's just a function of your sheepish gullibility, like all of the rest.

when you read a letter from Paul exhorting believers to be good christians and at the end there is an "also, submit to the emperor" tacked on, (who happened to be Nero), you can assume its not a teaching from God.

Was that hard?

You can assume the entire book is not a teaching from God using that standard, for these and many other reasons. But instead of the obvious, you import decoder ring fallacy and cherry pick what you do and do not like - it's just a hand-waving of the contradictions, the ridiculous practices and the barbaric ethics of mosaic law.

Kosher Law has its reasoning behind it, making the way they're to prepare their foods metaphorically backed by some woo-woo ethic, but that doesn't then make it any less ridiculous to actually ENGAGE in the practice, as though it enforces the metaphorical ethic by doing something with your food.

You are the worst kind of cherry-picking gullible nit-wit, in-terms of the Bible.

The wars happened, therefore were not metaphorical and that means that the codification of treatment of the spoils of war is not metaphor, either. You need it to be in order to find your sky-daddy's ethics not barbaric. Hypocritical, and ridiculous.

Chattel slavery wasn't a metaphor, it was actual historic to the time and so the codification on how to treat your slaves was not metaphorical. It was actual, and by proxy condoned said slavery. Disgusting, but your sky daddy liked it at the time. Or...cough, sorry, metaphor, decoder ring.

 

[MedfordMan]

Not quite.

The verse doesn't say that an uncircumcised man's soul is cut off from God.

That man's disobedience breaks the covenant with God, causing spiritual separation, but it doesn't condemn him to Hell unless he chooses not to seek forgiveness.

God did not cut the uncircumcised man out of his covenant. The uncircumcised man chose not to continue to be part of the covenant with God.

The point is not that God is capricious or vain, but that God is righteous so our sin separates us from him.

It means what it says ... the soul of the uncircumcised will not be G-d's people. That is G-d’s covenant.

Exactly what do Jews believe is required to be circumcised in order to become Gods people?

Penises? A circumcised penis is the mark of the covenant between God and man?

Is that really your answer?


Contradictions in the gospels should be the least of your concerns.

I’m telling you what the Torah says. I have no idea from where you get your information.

Is Judaism a biblical faith (based on the bible) or a rabbinic faith (based upon what rabbis says the Bible says)?

It's both.

Faun,

Do you believe the Torah, as written (without rabbinic explanation or commentary), is the inerrant, divinely inspired word of God?

 

[MedfordMan]

In another thread a poster wrote, "but there are way too many contradictions to take it (the Bible) literally and even the figurative passages are too wide ranging (I read inconsistent) as to preclude a coherent philosophy."

Needless to say I disagree with what was said above, so I've started this thread to clear up confusion about the Bible and address this widespread, but unfounded claim.

This is not my idea. In the prior thread I had said my piece and had left the thread, but the Holy Spirit has been after me to respond, so I am doing so.

The disclaimer:

I am one guy, who has a very busy full time job and a family. I will try to answer any honest question, but I will focus on large issues that make a border point in the interpretation of many similar verses.

If you have a personal question, which you don't feel comfortable asking on the forum, I have set up a personal e-mail of [email protected] for this purpose. If you think I'm an idiot or don't want to participate in the discussion, feel free to leave the thread. I don't need your angry e-mails on the personal e-mail, but I will pray for you personally before I delete them.

The ground rules:

If you have a scripture that you feel represents a contradiction, post the whole chapter (all the verses in that chapter) so we can see the context of the verse.

Please also do the same with the verse you claim it contradicts.

I'll post the contextual verses in my response.

I'll be cutting and pasting the Bible verses from the Blue Letter Bible and you can do so too for free.

I prefer the King James version, post your verses from that translation.

I will only comment on verses found in the (non Catholic) Bible. I will not comment or address scripture from the Apocrypha, the Gnostic bible, the Talmud or Mishna, the book of Morman and other texts or Gospels some are claiming should be part of or which some claim were part of some version of the Bible, at one time.

I'm not interested in a cut and paste of articles or other posts on this subject. If your not willing to do the work yourself, this thread isn't for you.

The purpose:

The purpose of this thread is not to prove that there aren't any contradictions in the Bible (spoiler alert - there are)

OR

that there aren't figurative passages or concepts that are difficult to understand.

The purpose is to show that the Bible is consistent when read in the proper context and that you don't have to have a PHD in religion to read and understand it.

My apologies if this subject was already discussed (TLDR)...

I always thought a major contradiction was between the two birth narratives. It seems impossible to reconcile them and in general they make no sense. They only make sense if one assumes they were separate inventions added later to show how Jesus fulfilled different Jewish prophesies.

Alang,

Could you flesh that out a little bit. It sounds like an interesting question.

to which verses are you referring?

 

[HaShev]

Non sequitur.

Your decoder ring fallacy is just one of the abundant interpretations that even biblical scholars cant decide on, and the problem with it is that its no better than the rest. Speculation, hearsay, interpretive, not empirically justified and worst of all - borrowed.

As it all is.

There was nothing proprietary to TEACH regarding human behavior and how it works.

You can cross your fingers, squint your eyes as hard as you can and pretend yeshua is real and that your "hidden" (lol) ethics were profound and not easily observed by any rational being in nature...but at the end of the day, your left with just a pile of shitty, and unjustified claims like any other deist.

Now you are just full of shit.

I never made any claim of anything being profound. In fact its the exact opposite. Easy enough for anyone with a second grade education to understand.

You make claims, you merely fail to justify them.

Talking serpent is easy to pin-point as a metaphor.

A directly codified way to treat a raped daughter is not.

And the writers really fucked you in the ass by claiming wisdom that they don't have and shuffling it in with wisdom that mostly everyone had - - you're just a sucker of a different kind because you believe that instead of claiming to provide the actual details of origins...the book is in fact just a "hidden teachings" how-to book for dummies which teaches ethical bullshit that everyone already knew...and worse, it teaches ethics that are barbaric by today's standards so it lacks clear wisdom in that regard.

The barbaric behavior recorded is the direct result of the people turning aside from the way that Moses taught to follow the law and a fulfillment of the consequent maledictions.

Everyone knows that the book have been revised and redacted by numerous unknown editors throughout its history.

Its really not that hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

It's not hard for anyone who spins, like you do.

You hand wave and dismiss the parts you don't like - and that's an obvious problem for the parts that you do. You couldn't begin to understand the contradiction there, it seems.

Salami and bacon, amen. Parts you like are actual, parts you dont are added and edited.

LOL!

The o.t. condoned slavery, not metaphorical slavery but very descript slavery that was ACCURATE to the time it was written.
The o.t. advised how yeshua wanted folks to behave in the spoils of waR....not metaphorical wars, but wars that were ACTUALLY occurring at that historical time.

You can hand wave that all away with your decoder ring fallacy, but that's just a function of your sheepish gullibility, like all of the rest.

when you read a letter from Paul in jail exhorting believers to be good christians and at the end there is an "also, submit to the emperor" tacked on, (who happened to be Nero), you can assume its not a teaching from God.

Was that hard?

According to Jewish laws to live by, Paul's imprisonment made him denounced as one to trust or listen to, and compile that with the authority who jailed him controlled his image (made of many figures) and words and you have a recipe for abuses and manipulations beyond just a jailed persons vengeance.
Furthermore, since this is a topic about contradictions, then we must discuss how James and Paul seemed to contradict and argue that each was teaching another Christ figure then the other, which was proved true by my previous post on historical contradictions which showed more then 1 Christ being used for the Jesus myth.

source: little known law:
The Dead Sea Scrolls
(4Q266 -7 fr 5) warned us of a rule they had back then about not listening to leaders/teachers who had been politically imprisoned as we see why through history, if only we had obeyed the simple rule.
List of Political prisoners who came out with a lust for blood and hate for humanity as they turned into psychopathic murderers who caused attrocities and were the cause of wars and more murders:
Paul of Tarsus(who was not based soley on Saul/thus not Jewish),
Julius Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam, Arafat, Zarquawi, Turkey's tyrant Erodagan and I think that Islamic radical guy in Africa Mokhtar Belmokhtar who started many wars and attrocities there (the guy with one eye) might have been a political prisoner, he seems hell bent on that subject himself regarding radicals imprisoned and breaking them out of prisons or he broke out of prison.
All political prisoners before they massacred.

Idi Amin might be another qualifying for that list: he had similarities to Saddam: Deserted by his father at an early age, he was brought up by his mother like Saddam and came from a small Islamic tribe.
President Obote put Amin under house arrest so technically he was also a political prisoner before he declared himself president and did a number on the people mainly ' hunting down Obote's supporters' much like Saddam hunted down kurds and Shiites, & his opposition supporters.
So we see the little known law is validated in importance, but ignored which is resulting in the very attrocities the command tries to avoid and save us from. Remember that the next time priests throw the "through Jesus we aren't in the law anymore speach", because this proves Jesus and often Paul is used to oppose obeying the law thus our choices to avoid the pitfalls is thwarted by the adversary ideology that is lawlessness (the same speach Dems make to bring America into lawlessness).

 

[G.T.]

lol, ancient israelites believed the soul was located in the blood, which is why they had to drain their meat of any blood before they ate it.

THATS not magical woo-woo, though.

They weren't allowed to drink foreign wine because it could have been made as a sacrifice to a foreign god.

The metaphor is why they actually do with the food, what they do - the reasoning behind it is clearly stated and, yupp....just as ridiculous as metaphorically ingesting christ as a cracker.

 

[G.T.]

The 613 commandments in the Torah are interesting, -

Hebrew is mitzvot, or commandments by God...who straight up was coolio-high-harmonious with slavery and such.

 

[Mindful]

lol, ancient israelites believed the soul was located in the blood, which is why they had to drain their meat of any blood before they ate it.

THATS not magical woo-woo, though.

They weren't allowed to drink foreign wine because it could have been made as a sacrifice to a foreign god.

The metaphor is why they actually do with the food, what they do - the reasoning behind it is clearly stated and, yupp....just as ridiculous as metaphorically ingesting christ as a cracker.

I won't get into this with you.

 

[G.T.]

lol, ancient israelites believed the soul was located in the blood, which is why they had to drain their meat of any blood before they ate it.

THATS not magical woo-woo, though.

They weren't allowed to drink foreign wine because it could have been made as a sacrifice to a foreign god.

The metaphor is why they actually do with the food, what they do - the reasoning behind it is clearly stated and, yupp....just as ridiculous as metaphorically ingesting christ as a cracker.

I won't get into this with you.

Nobody asked you to - but thanks for letting everyone who didn't ask know how you feel.

 

[Mindful]

The 613 commandments in the Torah are interesting, -

Hebrew is mitzvot, or commandments by God...who straight up was coolio-high-harmonious with slavery and such.

But I'll get into this with you.

Have you read them all?

 

[Mindful]

lol, ancient israelites believed the soul was located in the blood, which is why they had to drain their meat of any blood before they ate it.

THATS not magical woo-woo, though.

They weren't allowed to drink foreign wine because it could have been made as a sacrifice to a foreign god.

The metaphor is why they actually do with the food, what they do - the reasoning behind it is clearly stated and, yupp....just as ridiculous as metaphorically ingesting christ as a cracker.

I won't get into this with you.

Nobody asked you to - but thanks for letting everyone who didn't ask know how you feel.

Infantile response. As usual.

The whole point on these boards is: 'nobody asked you to'. Which you have enthusiastically adhered to.

 

[G.T.]

The 613 commandments in the Torah are interesting, -

Hebrew is mitzvot, or commandments by God...who straight up was coolio-high-harmonious with slavery and such.

But I'll get into this with you.

Have you read them all?

I don't have discussions with morons, which I consider you one....but yes and not only that, but watched entire videos with scholars of ancient hebrew discuss them...

Are you fond of them? How's about the rape ones, for instance? I'm especially fond of how to treat your rapist and your slaves...fascinating!

 

[Mindful]

The 613 commandments in the Torah are interesting, -

Hebrew is mitzvot, or commandments by God...who straight up was coolio-high-harmonious with slavery and such.

But I'll get into this with you.

Have you read them all?

I don't have discussions with morons, which I consider you one....but yes and not only that, but watched entire videos with scholars of ancient hebrew discuss them...

Are you fond of them? How's about the rape ones, for instance? I'm especially fond of how to treat your rapist and your slaves...fascinating!

You're not exactly holding back, are you?

As for the rest of your selective reasoning, you must be morbidly depressed, with preoccupations like that.

 

[G.T.]

The 613 commandments in the Torah are interesting, -

Hebrew is mitzvot, or commandments by God...who straight up was coolio-high-harmonious with slavery and such.

But I'll get into this with you.

Have you read them all?

I don't have discussions with morons, which I consider you one....but yes and not only that, but watched entire videos with scholars of ancient hebrew discuss them...

Are you fond of them? How's about the rape ones, for instance? I'm especially fond of how to treat your rapist and your slaves...fascinating!

You're not exactly holding back, are you?

As for the rest of your selective reasoning, you must be morbidly depressed, with preoccupations like that.

I notice you deflected, as per your usual. Link to the part of the board you've ever said anything informative, or even interesting at all...

all you do is drive-by neener posts that are vacuous and ill of substance. You're just a jerk-off. So, go and be one somewhere else because you're not smart enough to defend mitzvot.

 

[G.T.]

The 613 commandments (611) in the Torah are all the evidence one needs that Secular Society has brought theistic ethics into the future, kicking and screaming, and abandoning their principles for better ones along the way. The nerve they'd have... to even ask if "atheists" can be "moral" when theism BORROWS its best ethics from secular society, and ABANDONS its indefensible ones, is amazing.

 

[Mindful]

The 613 commandments in the Torah are interesting, -

Hebrew is mitzvot, or commandments by God...who straight up was coolio-high-harmonious with slavery and such.

But I'll get into this with you.

Have you read them all?

I don't have discussions with morons, which I consider you one....but yes and not only that, but watched entire videos with scholars of ancient hebrew discuss them...

Are you fond of them? How's about the rape ones, for instance? I'm especially fond of how to treat your rapist and your slaves...fascinating!

You're not exactly holding back, are you?

As for the rest of your selective reasoning, you must be morbidly depressed, with preoccupations like that.

I notice you deflected, as per your usual. Link to the part of the board you've ever said anything informative, or even interesting at all...

all you do is drive-by neener posts that are vacuous and ill of substance. You're just a jerk-off. So, go and be one somewhere else because you're not smart enough to defend mitzvot.

Vacuous and ill of substance. Coming from you. lol

Didn't you mean 'devoid of'?

 

[G.T.]

The 613 commandments in the Torah are interesting, -

Hebrew is mitzvot, or commandments by God...who straight up was coolio-high-harmonious with slavery and such.

But I'll get into this with you.

Have you read them all?

I don't have discussions with morons, which I consider you one....but yes and not only that, but watched entire videos with scholars of ancient hebrew discuss them...

Are you fond of them? How's about the rape ones, for instance? I'm especially fond of how to treat your rapist and your slaves...fascinating!

You're not exactly holding back, are you?

As for the rest of your selective reasoning, you must be morbidly depressed, with preoccupations like that.

I notice you deflected, as per your usual. Link to the part of the board you've ever said anything informative, or even interesting at all...

all you do is drive-by neener posts that are vacuous and ill of substance. You're just a jerk-off. So, go and be one somewhere else because you're not smart enough to defend mitzvot.

Vacuous and ill of substance. Coming from you. lol

Didn't you mean 'devoid of'?

I meant what I said - bye Mindful, you clearly have nothing to offer to the discussion.

 

[Mindful]

The 613 commandments (611) in the Torah are all the evidence one needs that Secular Society has brought theistic ethics into the future, kicking and screaming, and abandoning their principles for better ones along the way. The nerve they'd have... to even ask if "atheists" can be "moral" when theism BORROWS its best ethics from secular society, and ABANDONS its indefensible ones, is amazing.

Twaddle.

As per usual.

And you try so hard to make it look good. With flatulent and unnecessary rhetoric.