Zone1 The biggest difference between Catholicism and Protestantism.

[Picaro]

Actually, Jesus also said this:
Matthew 10: 5-6 Jesus, on calling the Twelve, had directly instructed them, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel”
Peter's church in Jerusalem converted Jews. It had nothing whatsoever to do with Catholicism. Christianity was legitimized by Constantine's mother, Helen. Peter was long dead when that happened. In fact, it was determined that Peter and Paul go in different directions because they disagreed on protocol.

If there was a Catholic Church, you have to explain why all the churches that Peter and Paul and other disciples started are recognized in scripture, but the Catholic Church was completely ignored by Christ. The reason it was ignored was because it didn't exist.

'
'Babylon' in the NT is also a reference to Jerusalem. It refers to the corrupt cult of the Babylonians who returned and the '2nd Temple' scam set up for them by the Persians.

 

[Donald H]

Thanks. Add also, that no where in the Bible does it say that Jonah survived being swallowed by a fish. How long was Lazuruas dead before Christ raised him up? Could God raise Jonah after 3 days? Just like He did Jesus?

Here's what Jonah said about it:
"But you, O Lord my God, snatched me from the jaws of death!” The earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption [death], O Lord my God.

Then there is the oxygen problem. Except many fish has air sacs, swim bladders, and lungs. There are fish big enough for a man to walk around in its stomach. Foul and unpleasant, for sure. Being stuck in a sewer would be unpleasant too, but if there was air, you'd survive it.
Thanks, again...

Excellent! You have thrown a new one in for consideration!
Who would have ever thought that Jonah could have been walking around in fish's stomach for three days?

 

[Donald H]

So that's a yes, you do want me to respond?

Yes of course, if you're in a calm and polite mood today.
I'm always going to be tolerant of your beliefs. I understand now the reason why you believe in the way you do.

 

[ding]

Yes of course, if you're in a calm and polite mood today.
I'm always going to be tolerant of your beliefs. I understand now the reason why you believe in the way you do.

Your version of a concern troll doesn't play with me.

 

[JohnDB]

Protestantism was mostly an organic movement that sprung from the widespread access to the Bible thanks to the printing press. The Catholics had a fit and charged Guttenberg with heresy.

There's no evidence that the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" went to Italy.

It started before the printing press with Martin Luther who "discovered" a chained book in the Library. (He truly wasn't the first but was the first one funded and promoted)

The printing press just published his method of translating the Latin to German....which was then copied by the other nations into their own language. Effectively removing the block for average people the opportunity to learn to read and write.

It was an important reformation which Effectively removed the Church's control over the people. And that's when it got really crazy as abuses and indulgences were revealed to be outside the scriptures.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Excellent! You have thrown a new one in for consideration!
Who would have ever thought that Jonah could have been walking around in fish's stomach for three days?

It's not new, you are just uninformed.

 

[Meriweather]

It started before the printing press with Martin Luther who "discovered" a chained book in the Library. (He truly wasn't the first but was the first one funded and promoted)

The printing press just published his method of translating the Latin to German....which was then copied by the other nations into their own language. Effectively removing the block for average people the opportunity to learn to read and write.

It was an important reformation which Effectively removed the Church's control over the people. And that's when it got really crazy as abuses and indulgences were revealed to be outside the scriptures.

The problem with summaries is what is "conveniently" left out. This is not the story.

 

[Donald H]

It's not new, you are just uninformed.

I hesitate to claim that I have received bad information from the Christians who have shown an interest in the question.
The most plausible explanation is from Ding, who explains it as a parable and not intended to be literally true.

Can you explain your explanation is detail?

What kind of fish or sea creature?

Are you offering the explanation that Jonah died in fish's stomach and was then resurrected? Or are you suggesting that Jonah walked around in mr. fish's stomach?

I might be able to be convinced on what you consider to be the true story. Could we maybe run a poll on the question?

 

[JohnDB]

The problem with summaries is what is "conveniently" left out. This is not the story.

"Conveniently"?
I don't have the wherewithal to write the entire history book. I'm already engaged in authoring a book now. I highlighted the pertinent points....sorry if you believe I've mischaracterized a denomination as a result....that wasn't my intention. The Church had their reasons....but so did Martin Luther.

What I find funny as all get out is that the various translations of the Bible the Catholic Church uses today are a result of Martin Luther's translation methodology.

The guy was extremely influential even if he did go nuts later in life.

 

[JohnDB]

I hesitate to claim that I have received bad information from the Christians who have shown an interest in the question.
The most plausible explanation is from Ding, who explains it as a parable and not intended to be literally true.

Can you explain your explanation is detail?

What kind of fish or sea creature?

Are you offering the explanation that Jonah died in fish's stomach and was then resurrected? Or are you suggesting that Jonah walked around in mr. fish's stomach?

I might be able to be convinced on what you consider to be the true story. Could we maybe run a poll on the question?

I don't believe that Jonah died nor did he walk around....scripture says he had seaweed wrapped about his head which protected him.

But when the big fish spat him out he looked really pale and white from the stomach juices of the fish. He would have been really scary looking to any Semitic or Arabic people.

 

[Donald H]

I don't believe that Jonah died nor did he walk around....scripture says he had seaweed wrapped about his head which protected him.

But when the big fish spat him out he looked really pale and white from the stomach juices of the fish. He would have been really scary looking to any Semitic or Arabic people.

There are too many blanks to fill in on your beliefs. All we can get out of that is that you don't accept it as just a parable.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Not sure how seaweed is a protectant. The description sounds more like an entanglement, but we know Jonah prayed:
I called to you from the land of the dead If Jonah was in a state of bodily corruption< decay, then God would have resurrected him.

Whatever God did to "prepare" the fish, the adaptation meant that fish differed from all the others, so a comparison of a normal fish vs that specific fish isn't possible. We aren't given a description of what was done to make that particular fish ready for God's purpose.

Are there fish without modification that a man could stand up in? Yes. A sulfur bottom whale was caught off the coast of Cape Cod was 100 ft long and had a mouth over 10 feet wide. A man who was unfortunate enough to be swallowed could take refuge in any one of the whale's stomach chambers, air sacs, or the large cranial cavities (extensions of the nasal sinus) which measure 7 feet high, 7ft wide and 14 ft long. More than big enough for a man to hide safely inside.

Until we are apprised of the adaptations God made to the leviathan, we just aren't given enough data to come to a conclusion. We take it on faith that Jonah lived through the experience he said he encountered, and that Jesus alluded to...

 

[JohnDB]

There are too many blanks to fill in on your beliefs. All we can get out of that is that you don't accept it as just a parable.

Its a prophetic book (the Book of Jonah)
Meaning that most people get lost in the Ancient Hebrew Poetry as to understanding what actually happened and what was any number of idiomatic/hyperbole/metaphoric expressions.
Animals getting swallowed whole by whales and etc only to be recovered alive later is not unique to the Jonah story. It's happened several times since. Enough to give credence to the story as being possible.

Ancient Near East literature is written in a manner unlike any existing today. All of the information they considered "common knowledge" was completely left out. Add to that some idioms of speech and a metaphoric, verb-based language and much of what was said is lost on us today. It requires a whole nother level of study to parse out what was literal vx something else being related. It's possible....but it requires a good bit of knowledge and focus.
Cognitive Biases and logical fallacies abound heavily in theological circles.

Add to that inside group and outside group Cognitive Biases and very few will ever really understand what the Book is truly focused about. Because in your posts you have expressed a Cognitive bias....you try not to have them as I have noticed from my interactions with you....but these things are persistent and usually infect everyone more.

 

[The Irish Ram]

If Jonah is metaphor, then when Jesus used it as an example of the time he would be in the heart of the earth, (the location of Abraham's Bosom aka Paradise), and hell, was what Jesus said a metaphor also? It didn't really happen?
Why would Jesus use an example of something that never even happened to explain what was about to happen to Him?

 

[Picaro]

It started before the printing press with Martin Luther who "discovered" a chained book in the Library. (He truly wasn't the first but was the first one funded and promoted)

The printing press just published his method of translating the Latin to German....which was then copied by the other nations into their own language. Effectively removing the block for average people the opportunity to learn to read and write.

It was an important reformation which Effectively removed the Church's control over the people. And that's when it got really crazy as abuses and indulgences were revealed to be outside the scriptures.

Yes, Luther made good use of the printing press.

"Gutenberg invented his press in 1450. Its use only took off in the 1520's. This was in larger part due to Luther himself. His popularity, the sheer volume of his output, and the fact he wrote in German kept the printers busy. The presses in Germany produced just 35 works in the German language in 1513. In 1520, they printed 208, of which 133 were written by Luther."

Page 178, Simon and Schuster Paperbacks.

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[forkintheroad7]

Only practicing Catholics know the biggest difference btwn Catholic and Protestant

Protestants do not have Transubstantiation, therefore, they do not have the Tangible Presence of Christ in their "hosts" (bread) or "church"

Only Jesus, working through an ordained Catholic priest can confect the host so that it actually becomes Christ...

See Eucharistic Miracles.

 

[Donald H]

Its a prophetic book (the Book of Jonah)
Meaning that most people get lost in the Ancient Hebrew Poetry as to understanding what actually happened and what was any number of idiomatic/hyperbole/metaphoric expressions.
Animals getting swallowed whole by whales and etc only to be recovered alive later is not unique to the Jonah story. It's happened several times since. Enough to give credence to the story as being possible.

So your bottom line says that it was real and it was possible to live in the big fish for 3 days?
Or you don't understand what really happened.
What do you think really happened? Or is it all parable or bullsh-t?

Ancient Near East literature is written in a manner unlike any existing today. All of the information they considered "common knowledge" was completely left out. Add to that some idioms of speech and a metaphoric, verb-based language and much of what was said is lost on us today. It requires a whole nother level of study to parse out what was literal vx something else being related. It's possible....but it requires a good bit of knowledge and focus.
Cognitive Biases and logical fallacies abound heavily in theological circles.

Or in far less words, they made it all up. (in theological circles)

Add to that inside group and outside group Cognitive Biases and very few will ever really understand what the Book is truly focused about. Because in your posts you have expressed a Cognitive bias....you try not to have them as I have noticed from my interactions with you....but these things are persistent and usually infect everyone more.

But you're not biased and you do understand!
Can you now get to the short strokes on the 'big fish' story?

 

[Donald H]

If Jonah is metaphor, then when Jesus used it as an example of the time he would be in the heart of the earth, (the location of Abraham's Bosom aka Paradise), and hell, was what Jesus said a metaphor also? It didn't really happen?
Why would Jesus use an example of something that never even happened to explain what was about to happen to Him?

We only need a new version of the story that can work, if you're going with the story being literally true. We've already getting some new and novel suggestions!

JohnDB has just prepared the stage for his!

 

[Donald H]

Not sure how seaweed is a protectant. The description sounds more like an entanglement, but we know Jonah prayed:
I called to you from the land of the dead If Jonah was in a state of bodily corruption< decay, then God would have resurrected him.

Whatever God did to "prepare" the fish, the adaptation meant that fish differed from all the others, so a comparison of a normal fish vs that specific fish isn't possible. We aren't given a description of what was done to make that particular fish ready for God's purpose.

Are there fish without modification that a man could stand up in? Yes. A sulfur bottom whale was caught off the coast of Cape Cod was 100 ft long and had a mouth over 10 feet wide. A man who was unfortunate enough to be swallowed could take refuge in any one of the whale's stomach chambers, air sacs, or the large cranial cavities (extensions of the nasal sinus) which measure 7 feet high, 7ft wide and 14 ft long. More than big enough for a man to hide safely inside.
View attachment 1019525

Until we are apprised of the adaptations God made to the leviathan, we just aren't given enough data to come to a conclusion. We take it on faith that Jonah lived through the experience he said he encountered, and that Jesus alluded to...

So the god made renovations (adaptations) to one of the rooms in a Sulphur bottomed whale's stomach or nose!
I like it!