Zone1 The Catholic Church is the most misunderstood/vilified "thing" in the world

[Meriweather]

We have provided you with scripture from all over the Bible, that you just ignore. A major theme in the Book is that salvation, justification are a gift. If that rubs you the wrong way, then perhaps the problem lies with your belief system. There is nothing you can do to complete Christ's work on the cross. Here is more scripture that tells who how you were sanctified. You have nothing to do with it"

Redemption and salvation are gifts. Catholics see justification as the gracious result of right/just acts. I explained this in another post.

I understand that some non-Catholic Christian sects believe that no matter how much they continue in sin, how few right/just acts they do, their souls are already purified. Continue to post as many verses as you like. I remember all the verses that present righteous and just acts in an entirely different light. You believe Martin Luther's interpretation while I remain with the Apostolic interpretation. I trust the Holy Spirit reaches out to all no matter their interpretation.

 

[1miseryindex]

Protestantism is a heresy. It was declared such at.. I believe the Council of Trent

Luther was formally excommunicated.

Nice little history lesson there for those not in the know, which seems to be millions and billions

 

[Meriweather]

^There, just pick one. There are multitudes of scripture that tell you who is in control. Whose work never even mentions our participation.
"You people" can't even agree on your own importance. You pray David's prayer, misery is working her way to Heaven by disparaging anyone who doesn't share her convoluted beliefs. Then attacks them for her own edification. She welcomes attacks on posters here.

Didn't even bother to read them this time as I am not a fan of proof-texting--i.e., ignoring all other verses on the topic, not to mention the context.

 

[Meriweather]

I've been a Catholic all my life. I spent 8 years in parochial school. And I am here to say, nuns are viscous! "Alright, hands out, palms up!"

I was in parochial school as well. We were never hit by nuns or anyone else. It wasn't until my brother was in public high school he had a "paddle" story. PE antics he got involved with and all pretty much admitted they got what they deserved--but that it was fun while it lasted.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Protestantism is a heresy. It was declared such at.. I believe the Council of Trent

Luther was formally excommunicated.

Nice little history lesson there for those not in the know, which seems to be millions and billions

Funny that Meriweather and I have posted here in this forum for a long time and denominations were never an issue. It wasn't until you waltzed in and started trying to crucify most here in general, and Protestants to be specific that sides were drawn. Now it's you people and you anti-Catholics, none of which is true. I am surrounded by them and love them. My husband is one of ten kids and none have ever condemned anyone to hell. They are nice people. And never have I condemned a Catholic or anyone else to hell.
You try to send everyone you can to hell. You owe IM2 and others in your smear these people I don't like thread. You're very cunning. You left your name off...

You offer no scripture to support your opinions, We have offered you scripture from all over the OT and NT. Like Meriweather said, it goes unread. It isn't the same scripture, they are all the same theme. 30 scriptures on who is responsible for us being justified and sanctified isn't really necessary. If you don't read ten, why post 30?

Christ used what is written to defeat Satan, so we know it works.
So, what scripture calls the churches Paul started, heresy? The ones that Christ addressed and called them as His 7 Candlesticks. The ones you claim are heretics, and are bound for hell. The ones where the worshipers were taken out and hung on crosses row after row.
Why did Jesus omit what you call His only church when He was addressing churches on earth?
Can you verify any of your claims?

 

[ninja007]

good luck talking to THAT wall...

Redemption is a gift. Salvation is accepting that gift and manifesting that gift. Lip service won't cut it.

too bad dozens of scriptures disagree with you- wheres the manifesting the gift verse?

 

[ninja007]

The Catholic and Greek Orthodox false doctrine of "transubstantiation" teaches that the bread and juice undergo a change to become the literal body and blood of Christ.



"And when Jesus had taken a cup and given thanks (Catholic transubstantiation happens here), He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood (Orthodox transubstantiation happens here) of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. “But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine (Jesus still called it juice) from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”" (Matthew 26:27–29)

• 1. Transubstantiation teaches the bread the juice for the Eucharist miraculously changes into the literal flesh and blood of Jesus.
• 2. Both Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches admit transubstantiation is NOT taught I the Bible, but is based upon human tradition which has its origin with the apostles themselves.
• 3. Orthodox say the grape juice changes into literal blood at the “prayer of thanksgiving” before the proclamation “this is my body”.
• 4. Catholics say the grape juice changes into literal blood at the proclamation "this is my body" after the prayer.

ONE VERSE REFUTATION #1: If you carefully read Mt 26:27-29 above, you will notice that after Jesus “gave thanks” and proclaimed “this is my blood”, Jesus himself refutes both RC and Orthodox because he then afterwards called it “fruit of the vine” not blood. This utterly collapses and refutes, with no chance for rebuttal of any kind, the false doctrines of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches.



BONUS REFUTION #2: The fact that Orthodox and Catholic BOTH CLAIM their ritual is direct apostolic authority, example and tradition, BUT they practice TWO DIFFERENT THINGS, proves transubstantiation is a human false doctrine invented in the 4th century AD.



A. Transubstantiation is a false doctrine for the following reasons:

1. No Bible verse teaches transubstantiation. Supposed proof texts put forward by Roman Catholic and Orthodox advocates are most naturally seen as proving that the bread and juice were symbols of the body and blood. To see transubstantiation in these texts requires one to strain the text as much as our mind.
2. Transubstantiation is a false doctrine because Jesus is not a liar: In Mt 26:29 after Jesus had said, "this is my blood" and prayed, he still referred to the contents as, "fruit of the vine". If transubstantiation of the juice into blood had occurred, as both Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches say it was at this time, then Jesus would never have referred to it as "fruit of the vine' but rather "blood". This proves that when Jesus said "take eat & drink" he LITERALLY gave them bread and juice.
3. In like manner, Paul also refers to the elements of the Lord's Supper as "eat this bread and drink the cup" in 1 Cor 11:26 after they should be transubstantiated. 1 Cor 11:26-27 proves transubstantiation wrong because Paul calls the loaf, "bread" after both Roman Catholics and Orthodox say the "change" was supposed to take place. Catholics make Paul a liar by calling the loaf "bread" rather than what Catholic false doctrine claims it was: Literal Flesh.
4. In 1 Corinthians 11:25, Jesus said literally that the "cup was the covenant". So which is it? Is the it the juice that is the covenant or the juice that is the blood? Is it the cup that is the covenant or is the cup the blood?
5. In 1 Cor 11:26-28, Paul instructs us to "drink the cup" instead of "drink the blood". The Holy Spirit would not use such a figure of speech as "synecdoche" (referring to a part for the whole) if such a literal transubstantiation was actually taking place. To use a symbol when such a literal change is taking place is unthinkable.
6. Transubstantiation is a false doctrine because Jesus instituted Lord's Supper before his blood was shed and body broken! He spoke of His blood being shed, which was still yet future. This proves it was a symbol.
7. The very record of historically, (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Cyprian and Hippolytus) which the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches love to quote as authority, proves that before 200 AD, the church viewed the bread and juice as symbols. Conversely, the earliest historical hint of transubstantiation was in the 4th century.
8. Obviously Jesus words, "this is my body" should be taken symbolically because it falls within a long list of symbolic statements Christ said: "I am the bread," (John 6:41), "I am the vine," (John 15:5), "I am the door," (John 10:7,9), "I am the good shepherd,"(John 10:11,12), "You are the world the salt, (Matthew 5:13), "You are the light of the world the salt, (Matthew 5:14)
9. The apostasy of withholding the Cup: Roman Catholics, in the 1415 AD Council of Constance, decreed that the laity could no longer drink of the cup, but the bread alone. This is completely contrary to Scripture and the earliest church traditions. Jesus' own words are "drink from it, all of you" Matthew 26:26 and in Mark 14:22-23 it says "He gave it to them, and they all drank from it." The Greek Orthodox church does not withhold the juice.
10. The Greek orthodox church violates the Bible pattern by using leavened bread, whereas Roman Catholics use unleavened bread, just as Jesus did, (Matthew 26:17) and the Bible records in 1 Cor 5:7-8. Both Roman Catholic and Greek orthodox churches violate the Bible pattern by using leavened wine, instead of unleavened grape juice.

One verse refution of Transubstantiation

 

[ninja007]

Redemption and salvation are gifts. Catholics see justification as the gracious result of right/just acts. I explained this in another post.

I understand that some non-Catholic Christian sects believe that no matter how much they continue in sin, how few right/just acts they do, their souls are already purified. Continue to post as many verses as you like. I remember all the verses that present righteous and just acts in an entirely different light. You believe Martin Luther's interpretation while I remain with the Apostolic interpretation. I trust the Holy Spirit reaches out to all no matter their interpretation.

justification from just acts? thats the total opposite of what God says it is. Where do you get this stuff? Justification is that gracious and judicial act of God whereby a soul is granted complete absolution from all guilt and a full release from the penalty of sin (Romans 3:23-25). This act of divine grace is wrought by faith in the merits of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).

 

[The Irish Ram]

Here is another little bit of history for you.
About 50 days after Christ left the disciples, Peter started a church. He was the first preacher of the church in Jerusalem until 44 AD. It consisted of Jews and Gentiles. And it had many followers. After Peter's first sermon there, about 3,000 people were saved and baptized. Peter stayed there for many years with the church He founded. In Jerusalem. Then he and Paul went to Antioch, the capital of Syria, and started another Christian church there.
Paul did not want to go to Rome, so Paul stepped up in Peter's place. Paul did eventually go to Rome. The first evidence of him being there was in 63 AD. They killed him in 64.

 

[zaangalewa]

Yeah, my heart bleeds for you ...

View attachment 890676

Explanation? Maybe this children and women are Catholics, isn't it? In this case you are nothing else than a cynical racist. But even if this unfortunate political prisoners should had been Jews and the Nazis murdered them than you are also anything else than a hero but only an asshole with a hateful form to feel and not to think.

Question: It it correct that you personally never lost anyone in the Holocaust but you are only a left wing propagandist of hate who is misusing also my victims of the Holocaust for the own political propaganda - while he thinks on a mysterious reason he has the right to incapacitate the victims of the Holocaust and their relatives?

 

[zaangalewa]

The Irish Ram

Idiot! Ever tried to think about how many Catholics fought against Hitler?

 

[zaangalewa]

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Romans 4:1-25 - What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (Read More...)

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

My bible is a book with 1461 pages and some more sentences in very little letters. And this is only a ppb (part per billion) of the stories about Jews and Christians everyone had to know who seriosly likes to say: "I know something about Jews and Christians".

 

[zaangalewa]

Now that is some bloated figures... what in Gods name do they consider molested?

The actual % for girls is 12%, and for boys it is 4%.

What a nonsense. Where from do you have such numbers? Fantasia land?

 

[ding]

too bad dozens of scriptures disagree with you- wheres the manifesting the gift verse?

Mathew 7:21-23

 

[zaangalewa]

... A. Transubstantiation is a false doctrine for the following reasons: ...

Because you throw into a biowaste bin the rest of the bread and wine which you was not able to consume in your church service? Or because you had to flee in front of the Nazis - but had first to eat and to drink this all under the risk to be killed from them - so this heathens not had been able to dishonour Christ?

 

[zaangalewa]

Mathew 7:21-23

-----
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
-----

-----

 

[surada]

Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Romans 4:1-25 - What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? (Read More...)

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Throughout the Bible God puts great emphasis on obedience.

 

[Meriweather]

justification from just acts? thats the total opposite of what God says it is. Where do you get this stuff?

As already explained...it's in the Bible. Think about it. Jesus taught repentance for the forgiveness of sins. In the Catholic faith, we turn away from that sin, replacing it with obedience. We confess the sin, we, by God's grace, are forgiven the sin, and also by God's grace we do the good works he planned in advance for us to do. By his grace, we are justified. All of this is Biblical and Apostolic tradition. This is the way of our worship and our glorifying God.

Your way of worshiping and glorifying God is by believing by Christ's work, your soul, yet to be born, no matter how great its sins, are already justified by God due to the fact Christ' blood is justified and his blood covers all your sins, past,present, future.

I've said on this forum many times: When it comes to others beliefs and worship, we are on holy ground.

As I set forth, Catholic belief includes many Biblical teachings.
As I set forth, your denomination focuses on one.

Both these are holy ground, and when it comes to worship and glorifying God, who am I to desecrate your denomination's worship and glorification of God--and by the same token, who are you to desecrate Catholic worship and glorification of God?

 

[ding]

-----
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
-----

-----

Amen

 

[zaangalewa]

ding

I hope this was a self-reflexive "Amen" and not one of your atheistic jokes.