The Death of a Presidency

[TemplarKormac]

Gee, Auditor...what I'm seeing is higher premiums pretty much across the board for people going on the exchanges without getting subsidies. I checked mine out and the comparable plan on the exchange here in Florida is about 25% higher for me. Where are you at that your premiums went down?

He would have to live in one of these states to see any drop in premium:

Colorado
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island

Those are states where the average premiums decreased, correct?

He could live in almost any state and see a decrease in premium. Some here in Wisconsin have had premium decreases. I'm pretty sure I heard of some rate decreases in California. The average rates for all could still increase but some will see rate improvement.

I base that assertion on this chart, as I base most of my arguments on empirical data:

 

[TemplarKormac]

[

If the law allows him to grant a waiver you should be able to point to the part of the law that gives him that power.

If you can't, you are free to keep making shit up lying a lying sack of shit.

Yeah, it's the part that says, "You don't like it, impeach me!"

Oh, wait. They can't.

You guys lost this argument... Obama outfoxed you, again!

A statement of desperation. You were the one who got outfoxed. You were tricked into believing that the Affordable Care Act was 'affordable.' You were tricked into believing that you could keep your plan and your doctor if you liked them. He admitted that he lied. Its about time you admit that you've lost, Joe.

 

[JoeB131]

That you are incapable or unwilling to understand the points I've made isn't my problem, guy.

It isn't that I'm incapable of understanding, Joe. I am incapable of being led by the hand, nor am I willing. I am incapable of deigning to such levels of cognitive dissonance as you have. Its amazing to see someone as old as you are be so misinformed.

No, guy, the problem here is that you've read too much Ayn Rand and have a rather immature and distorted view of the world and how people interelate to each other.

[
Well, if we didn't have people like Obama trying to destroy our healthcare system, and people actually passing serious healthcare reform, we wouldn't have to spend so much. There is too much bureaucracy in the health system as it is. Obamacare simply adds more bureaucracy and thus more expense.

All the right wing solutions aren't about "reform", they aer about protecting the interests of the wealthy. Let's take the one they LOVE to trot out, Tort Reform. Wouldn't really improve health care one little bit. The CBO has estimated it would reduce costs by all of .4%. Health care costs did not go down in Texas after Rick Perry passed rather draconian Tort Reform, nor did Doctors flock down to that state.

[
Key word is 'tried' to fix these problems. It was nothing more than a halfhearted attempt to do so. I would like to see what exactly this law has fixed. Where do you derive this 6 million figure from? 5 million people have no insurance because of this law! Medical inflation is irrelevant to this discussion.

3 million have enrolled in medicaid. 1 million more are awaiting approval of new plans. 2 million people under 26 are now covered by their parent's policies.

And, no, no one has less insurance because of this law. That's a fallacy.

[

And frankly, I see a lot of interests with too much money and not enough decency.

What are you going to do about it exactly? Take their money away?

Or just getting them out of the system.

Let Cigna insure cars and houses and such. But get them out of health care, they don't belong there. And stop paying guys like Ed Hanaway 8 figures while denying people who paid premiums coverage.

 

[Amelia]

He would have to live in one of these states to see any drop in premium:

Colorado
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island

Those are states where the average premiums decreased, correct?

He could live in almost any state and see a decrease in premium. Some here in Wisconsin have had premium decreases. I'm pretty sure I heard of some rate decreases in California. The average rates for all could still increase but some will see rate improvement.

I base that assertion on this chart, as I base most of my arguments on empirical data:

Those are averages. Even in states where premiums increase on average there will likely be some winners who see a decrease.

I heard of two local couples here in Wisconsin who had decreases -- they were both elderly -- which is consistent with what we've been hearing about young people having to pay more so that plans for the elderly can be brought down to a level where they are no more than 3 times as much as what young people pay.

 

[JoeB131]

[

A statement of desperation. You were the one who got outfoxed. You were tricked into believing that the Affordable Care Act was 'affordable.' You were tricked into believing that you could keep your plan and your doctor if you liked them. He admitted that he lied. Its about time you admit that you've lost, Joe.

Guy, I still have the same Insurance plan I had. The one where I pay $80.00 a month because I am a non-smoker. ACA didn't change that, because my company's program complied with the law. And next year, I'll still keep seeing the same doctor.

Point is, the ACA isn't going anywhere. So the few people on private plans have been told Cigna and United can't use teh ACA as an excuse anymore. So here's where the rubber meets the road.

 

[percysunshine]

[

A statement of desperation. You were the one who got outfoxed. You were tricked into believing that the Affordable Care Act was 'affordable.' You were tricked into believing that you could keep your plan and your doctor if you liked them. He admitted that he lied. Its about time you admit that you've lost, Joe.

Guy, I still have the same Insurance plan I had. The one where I pay $80.00 a month because I am a non-smoker. ACA didn't change that, because my company's program complied with the law. And next year, I'll still keep seeing the same doctor.

Point is, the ACA isn't going anywhere. So the few people on private plans have been told Cigna and United can't use teh ACA as an excuse anymore. So here's where the rubber meets the road.

Your company? You are next up on the Obamacare hit parade. Next year, since the employer mandate was delayed.

You might want to read this;

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-06-17/pdf/2010-14488.pdf

Pay particular attention to page 34553 where the HHS gets to the part about Employer plans relinquishing their Grandfather status.

See ya in a year, chump.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No, guy, the problem here is that you've read too much Ayn Rand and have a rather immature and distorted view of the world and how people interelate to each other.

Actually, it will surprise you to know I've never read the book. I don't care for it, or for Ayn Rand. So what was that about me reading too much of her work? I have a far superior view of the world in all of my 26 years of living than you have in 51. You are outwardly hostile, overly immature and will stop at nothing to make a point, even if you distort something to do it. You remind me of a textbook Progressive Socialist.

All the right wing solutions aren't about "reform", they are about protecting the interests of the wealthy. Let's take the one they LOVE to trot out, Tort Reform. Wouldn't really improve health care one little bit. The CBO has estimated it would reduce costs by all of .4%. Health care costs did not go down in Texas after Rick Perry passed rather draconian Tort Reform, nor did Doctors flock down to that state.

Class warfare is irrelevant to this discussion, this point is dismissed.

3 million have enrolled in medicaid. 1 million more are awaiting approval of new plans. 2 million people under 26 are now covered by their parent's policies.

Can you substantiate these numbers? Or did you get a hold of Jay Carney's press notes?

And, no, no one has less insurance because of this law. That's a fallacy.

5 million have NO insurance. Are you willfully denying such a fact?

Or just getting them out of the system.

Let Cigna insure cars and houses and such. But get them out of health care, they don't belong there. And stop paying guys like Ed Hanaway 8 figures while denying people who paid premiums coverage.

Say what? And violate the 14th Amendment too? No sir, that's unconstitutional. I don't know what it is with you, but everyone deserves health care. You don't exclude people because they're rich. How absolutely ludicrous.

 

[auditor0007]

He would have to live in one of these states to see any drop in premium:

Colorado
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island

I live in Ohio. I do know that for those over 60, the plans tend to be more expensive. Your age will have a big impact on the final numbers. Younger people are getting pretty good deals. We seem to forget that if you get your insurance through a company, age doesn't come into play because companies get their insurance rated based on the average age of all the employees at the company. This means that they young 25 year old pays the same as the 63 year old. Employees don't really see that because the employer is paying the bulk of the premium to begin with. Personally, I think the exchanges should have been rated on a much less progressive scale where older people only paid up to two times as much as younger people rather than up to three times, and that three times is questionable because from what I've seen, a lot of plans for those 60 and above seem to be much more than three times the premium than for those in their twenties.

Younger people are the ones getting royally screwed because the law says that insurance companies cannot charge then a price that has anything to do with their age, general health, or lack of risk factors.

You do realize that if a young person gets his/her insurance through an employer, the rate is the same as for the oldest person working at that company, right? Yet you bitch about the young person who you think should pay almost nothing for their coverage while we charge a person near retirement more than their house payment.

 

[TemplarKormac]

[

A statement of desperation. You were the one who got outfoxed. You were tricked into believing that the Affordable Care Act was 'affordable.' You were tricked into believing that you could keep your plan and your doctor if you liked them. He admitted that he lied. Its about time you admit that you've lost, Joe.

Guy, I still have the same Insurance plan I had. The one where I pay $80.00 a month because I am a non-smoker. ACA didn't change that, because my company's program complied with the law. And next year, I'll still keep seeing the same doctor.

Point is, the ACA isn't going anywhere. So the few people on private plans have been told Cigna and United can't use teh ACA as an excuse anymore. So here's where the rubber meets the road.

Why are you lying to me? If the ACA indeed goes nowhere, you may very well lose your insurance when the employer mandate kicks in. Talk about the rubber meeting the road Joe. It was this sort of cockiness that destroyed our healthcare system in the first place. Perhaps you're still defending this law because it hasn't impacted you directly. So you have no idea in hell what this law is doing to people.

The point is, the ACA is going to collapse. All the symptoms are there. Higher premiums, millions more uninsured and counting, lack of enrollees. More signups in Medicare. The law is a failure. Obama finally saw the light and put it out of its misery via executive order.

 

[auditor0007]

Gee, Auditor...what I'm seeing is higher premiums pretty much across the board for people going on the exchanges without getting subsidies. I checked mine out and the comparable plan on the exchange here in Florida is about 25% higher for me. Where are you at that your premiums went down?

He would have to live in one of these states to see any drop in premium:

Colorado
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island

Those are states where the average premiums decreased, correct?

He could live in almost any state and see a decrease in premium. Some here in Wisconsin have had premium decreases. I'm pretty sure I heard of some rate decreases in California. The average rates for all could still increase but some will see rate improvement.

It is a mixed bag. I am in no way insinuating everyone is going to see lower rates. On the flip side, coverage is generally better with plans on the exchanges, especially once you take into account that all preventative care is covered 100%.

The bottom line though is that for those who are going to see increases, most of those increases are minimal. It is a much smaller percentage who are getting shafted and from what I have seen, the ones getting hit the hardest are those who are over 60 and who are not eligible for a subsidy.

 

[The T]

Guy, the only thinkg you prove is that at 26 you are kind of sad, given what you've said about your perosnal life, but I'm not going there.

By the time I was 26, I owned my own rental property and was an NCO in the United States Army.

But here's the thing. I've been in Government run medical systems when I was in the service. Guess what, they work pretty well, didn't cost me a dime, and I got excellent care. True, I was younger and in my prime, but the system worked.

In my 40's I got a true taste of what it is like when someone who makes money off of you doesn't want to make good on their promises. It ain't pretty. I honestly hope you never find yourself there.

Again- Obama has totally outfoxed you guys. Now it's big insurance that's going to go back to these folks and say, "Well, no, we aren't making good on our promises."

Which really was the problem all along.

Too late dumbass. YOU JUST DID.

NO, I really didn't. While he has discussed his life in other threads, I did not repeat them here.

WHich is too bad, because Templar could benefit FAR more from ObamaCare than I can. ObamaCare has no effect on my life. I already have good insurance.

Someone in his situation would benefit from it greatly. A lot of people WILL benefit from it greatly.

And for some reason, you think that's horrible because... Ummm... Freedom or something.

No Joey...you did. The INTENT was there. Are all you Commies this stupid?

 

[JoeB131]

[

A statement of desperation. You were the one who got outfoxed. You were tricked into believing that the Affordable Care Act was 'affordable.' You were tricked into believing that you could keep your plan and your doctor if you liked them. He admitted that he lied. Its about time you admit that you've lost, Joe.

Guy, I still have the same Insurance plan I had. The one where I pay $80.00 a month because I am a non-smoker. ACA didn't change that, because my company's program complied with the law. And next year, I'll still keep seeing the same doctor.

Point is, the ACA isn't going anywhere. So the few people on private plans have been told Cigna and United can't use teh ACA as an excuse anymore. So here's where the rubber meets the road.

Your company? You are next up on the Obamacare hit parade. Next year, since the employer mandate was delayed.

You might want to read this;

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-06-17/pdf/2010-14488.pdf

Pay particular attention to page 34553 where the HHS gets to the part about Employer plans relinquishing their Grandfather status.

See ya in a year, chump.

Naw, you probably won't.

Employer mandates are for companies that employ 50 or more people and don't provide insurance.

My company employs 9000 people around the world, and self-insures. And their plan is already ACA compliant.

So just because your insurance company is dumping your "We were only kidding" plan, don't think it really effects the rest of us.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I live in Ohio. I do know that for those over 60, the plans tend to be more expensive. Your age will have a big impact on the final numbers. Younger people are getting pretty good deals. We seem to forget that if you get your insurance through a company, age doesn't come into play because companies get their insurance rated based on the average age of all the employees at the company. This means that they young 25 year old pays the same as the 63 year old. Employees don't really see that because the employer is paying the bulk of the premium to begin with. Personally, I think the exchanges should have been rated on a much less progressive scale where older people only paid up to two times as much as younger people rather than up to three times, and that three times is questionable because from what I've seen, a lot of plans for those 60 and above seem to be much more than three times the premium than for those in their twenties.

Younger people are the ones getting royally screwed because the law says that insurance companies cannot charge then a price that has anything to do with their age, general health, or lack of risk factors.

You do realize that if a young person gets his/her insurance through an employer, the rate is the same as for the oldest person working at that company, right? Yet you bitch about the young person who you think should pay almost nothing for their coverage while we charge a person near retirement more than their house payment.

What? What got you so riled up? I would have to pay higher premiums simply because of my age! What young person would want to subject themselves to that?

 

[JoeB131]

Too late dumbass. YOU JUST DID.

NO, I really didn't. While he has discussed his life in other threads, I did not repeat them here.

WHich is too bad, because Templar could benefit FAR more from ObamaCare than I can. ObamaCare has no effect on my life. I already have good insurance.

Someone in his situation would benefit from it greatly. A lot of people WILL benefit from it greatly.

And for some reason, you think that's horrible because... Ummm... Freedom or something.

No Joey...you did. The INTENT was there. Are all you Commies this stupid?

No, I didn't go into any details.

Sorry, man. I mean, I'd like to, because frankly, I'm just not understanding how people who would actually benefit from the ACA are opposed to it.

It doesn't affect my life one way or the other. I support it because it's the right thing to do, even if it isn't the best way to do it.

 

[auditor0007]

He would have to live in one of these states to see any drop in premium:

Colorado
New Jersey
New York
Ohio
Rhode Island

Those are states where the average premiums decreased, correct?

He could live in almost any state and see a decrease in premium. Some here in Wisconsin have had premium decreases. I'm pretty sure I heard of some rate decreases in California. The average rates for all could still increase but some will see rate improvement.

I base that assertion on this chart, as I base most of my arguments on empirical data:

The problem with empirical data like that is that it's not comparing apples to oranges in most cases. It does not take into account that most plans offered through the exchange offer better coverage including paying 100% for all preventative care. Many people may see their premiums increase, but their out of pocket will drop.

What bothers me is that most people like you will throw out these charts, but very few of you have actually compared plans and rates on your state's exchange, either because you have made up your mind that it's so horrible that you are just going to go without insurance, but more likely because you already have insurance through your employer or you never intended to purchase health insurance to begin with. If the ladder is the case, then talking to you is pointless.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Guy, I still have the same Insurance plan I had. The one where I pay $80.00 a month because I am a non-smoker. ACA didn't change that, because my company's program complied with the law. And next year, I'll still keep seeing the same doctor.

Point is, the ACA isn't going anywhere. So the few people on private plans have been told Cigna and United can't use teh ACA as an excuse anymore. So here's where the rubber meets the road.

Your company? You are next up on the Obamacare hit parade. Next year, since the employer mandate was delayed.

You might want to read this;

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-06-17/pdf/2010-14488.pdf

Pay particular attention to page 34553 where the HHS gets to the part about Employer plans relinquishing their Grandfather status.

See ya in a year, chump.

Naw, you probably won't.

Employer mandates are for companies that employ 50 or more people and don't provide insurance.

My company employs 9000 people around the world, and self-insures. And their plan is already ACA compliant.

So just because your insurance company is dumping your "We were only kidding" plan, don't think it really effects the rest of us.

As we all know, what is "ACA compliant" today, may be substandard tomorrow. Just ask the 5 million folks how "ACA compliant" their plans were.

 

[auditor0007]

NO, I really didn't. While he has discussed his life in other threads, I did not repeat them here.

WHich is too bad, because Templar could benefit FAR more from ObamaCare than I can. ObamaCare has no effect on my life. I already have good insurance.

Someone in his situation would benefit from it greatly. A lot of people WILL benefit from it greatly.

And for some reason, you think that's horrible because... Ummm... Freedom or something.

No Joey...you did. The INTENT was there. Are all you Commies this stupid?

No, I didn't go into any details.

Sorry, man. I mean, I'd like to, because frankly, I'm just not understanding how people who would actually benefit from the ACA are opposed to it.

It doesn't affect my life one way or the other. I support it because it's the right thing to do, even if it isn't the best way to do it.

The vast majority of people who are receiving these cancellation notices have not even bothered to see what is available on the exchanges. If they bothered to look and ran all the numbers, most of them will find that they will get better overall coverage for the same amount or maybe even a little less. If they are eligible for a subsidy, it is almost certain to be less.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Those are states where the average premiums decreased, correct?

He could live in almost any state and see a decrease in premium. Some here in Wisconsin have had premium decreases. I'm pretty sure I heard of some rate decreases in California. The average rates for all could still increase but some will see rate improvement.

I base that assertion on this chart, as I base most of my arguments on empirical data:

The problem with empirical data like that is that it's not comparing apples to oranges in most cases. It does not take into account that most plans offered through the exchange offer better coverage including paying 100% for all preventative care. Many people may see their premiums increase, but their out of pocket will drop.

What bothers me is that most people like you will throw out these charts, but very few of you have actually compared plans and rates on your state's exchange, either because you have made up your mind that it's so horrible that you are just going to go without insurance, but more likely because you already have insurance through your employer or you never intended to purchase health insurance to begin with. If the ladder is the case, then talking to you is pointless.

Excuse me? If you're going to make a point, do it. Do not resort to ad hominem.

I did compare plans and rates. I will have to pay up to $170 a month and a $6,000 deductible out of pocket! Do you really think I'm that stupid, auditor? I'm not talking out of my ass, I've already done my homework, unlike some people. You speak from personal experience and nothing more.

 

[TemplarKormac]

No Joey...you did. The INTENT was there. Are all you Commies this stupid?

No, I didn't go into any details.

Sorry, man. I mean, I'd like to, because frankly, I'm just not understanding how people who would actually benefit from the ACA are opposed to it.

It doesn't affect my life one way or the other. I support it because it's the right thing to do, even if it isn't the best way to do it.

The vast majority of people who are receiving these cancellation notices have not even bothered to see what is available on the exchanges. If they bothered to look and ran all the numbers, most of them will find that they will get better overall coverage for the same amount or maybe even a little less. If they are eligible for a subsidy, it is almost certain to be less.

Answer me this. Why? Why would they bother to expose themselves to higher rates and premiums? What are you planning to do? Make them buy insurance at gunpoint? Because as I see it, this law was nothing but a way to force people into government mandated and approved insurance.

Does that not bother you in the slightest?

 

[auditor0007]

It may be a bit long winded but still. I do believe this law is and will be the death of Obama's presidency. For the remaining years to come, he will be haunted by the lies he told and the promises he broke.

Until people actually check out their exchange and find out they can get the same or better coverage for the same price or even save some money. Supposedly 5 million people have received cancellation notices, according to Fox News. 1.5 million have registered on the health exchanges, most all before the 5 million received their cancellation notices. This tells us one important fact; those who have received cancellations have not even checked out their exchange to see what is now available for them. Once they do check out their exchange, a lot of them are going to be in for a big surprise when they start to understand that they are getting a better policy for the same amount or less, and some will even be eligible for a subsidy that will further reduce how much it is going to cost them.

Now, there will be those who do end up paying more. The way it is set up is not perfect for everyone, but the fact is that more are going to benefit than be screwed. And I'm not talking out my ass here. I am one of those who is losing my insurance come the end of the year. I got my cancellation notice, and I've found a plan I am going to be very happy with. It is just slightly cheaper than what I had, and the benefits are comparable to what I had, and that is with no subsidy.

No one is getting better coverage for the same, or a lower, price.

Must suck to know you are wrong so often.