The Official Zimmerman Trial Verdict Thread

[Sallow]

Clearly if Trayvon was the thug he's being made to be, Zimmerman would be dead today.

So you missed the part where the thug punched out an armed man??

Who btw when saw the gun told GZ " you're going to die tonight"

And that's according to Zimmerman.

Man..lot's o stuff happened in that whole entire minute between when Zimmerman and Martin got close.

It's practically out of Death Wish.

 

[legaleagle_45]

LMAO! You are killing me! They don't have time to go apply for those jobs. They are too busy trying to show that I don't have a JD. No doubt they are all up on the finer points of the law such as those that involve Conflicts of Law.

Should we broach the rule against perpetuities?

 

[RKMBrown]

And that has nothing to do with the point I made.

Had the young man shot the old man, because he was losing the fight and felt that his life with in danger..none of you folks would have any trouble putting the young man in jail.

And that's telling.

Because HE was the aggressor, you fool, not because of his color. The white guy had made his attempt to defuse the situation by moving to the front of the bus. The black kid pursued him and deserved his beat down. Self defense does not apply when the person committing the bad act is met with superior force. The white man in this case was the one acting lawfully.

This is further proof of your myopic black vs. white mentality. Why can't you see good vs. evil?

Exactly.

Give this man a cigar.

Light bulb moment? maybe... maybe not

 

[Ernie S.]

OLD MAN BEATS UP YOUNG BLACK BOY ON METRO BUS - YouTube

Here's another sort of similar circumstance.

Had the young man shot the old man..I doubt one Zimmerman supporter on this board would be jumping to the young man's defense.

I certainly wouldn't. The old man retreated, but the young one couldn't let it go.

And that's the "shooting match".

Here in this scenario..the young man is doing what Zimmerman did.

Absofuckinglutely not! The young man is the aggressor, just like the other young man who is dead.
You have this idea in your head that Martin was justified to attack Zimmerman because he was an armed dude with a gun. Trayvon Martin was the aggressor and his irresponsible actions caused his death.

 

[Sallow]

First, the black guy struck first.

Second, the white guy stopped hitting him once he was down.

Had he continued to wail on the black guy after he was down, and no one was stopping him...and the black guy believed he was in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, he would have been within his rights to use lethal force to stop the attack.

But it didn't come to that...white guy ended the threat to himself, and walked away.

Had Martin done that, he would be alive today.

There's no indication that Martin would not have done that. And there's nothing to indicate that Zimmerman didn't start the altercation other than Zimmerman..who's basically changed his version of events several times.

And, no, I do not think that use of lethal force against an unarmed opponent is justified in the majority of cases. That would really take an extraordinary event.

Part of which does not involve the person using the gun stalking his opponent and aggravating a tense situation.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1188, ch. 97-102; s. 2, ch. 2005-27.
776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.—
(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and
(b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.
(2) The presumption set forth in subsection (1) does not apply if:
(a) The person against whom the defensive force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence, or vehicle, such as an owner, lessee, or titleholder, and there is not an injunction for protection from domestic violence or a written pretrial supervision order of no contact against that person; or
(b) The person or persons sought to be removed is a child or grandchild, or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of, the person against whom the defensive force is used; or
(c) The person who uses defensive force is engaged in an unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity; or
(d) The person against whom the defensive force is used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who enters or attempts to enter a dwelling, residence, or vehicle in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person entering or attempting to enter was a law enforcement officer.
(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(4) A person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter a person’s dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit an unlawful act involving force or violence.
(5) As used in this section, the term:
(a) “Dwelling” means a building or conveyance of any kind, including any attached porch, whether the building or conveyance is temporary or permanent, mobile or immobile, which has a roof over it, including a tent, and is designed to be occupied by people lodging therein at night.
(b) “Residence” means a dwelling in which a person resides either temporarily or permanently or is visiting as an invited guest.
(c) “Vehicle” means a conveyance of any kind, whether or not motorized, which is designed to transport people or property.
[/sallow]

Did you actually read this?

And when did Martin enter Zimmerman's tent?

 

[RKMBrown]

Clearly if Trayvon was the thug he's being made to be, Zimmerman would be dead today.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS0sqUhfzx0&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DbS0sqUhfzx0&has_verified=1"]OLD MAN BEATS UP YOUNG BLACK BOY ON METRO BUS - YouTube[/ame]

Here's another sort of similar circumstance.

Had the young man shot the old man..I doubt one Zimmerman supporter on this board would be jumping to the young man's defense.

First, the black guy struck first.

Second, the white guy stopped hitting him once he was down.

Had he continued to wail on the black guy after he was down, and no one was stopping him...and the black guy believed he was in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, he would have been within his rights to use lethal force to stop the attack.

But it didn't come to that...white guy ended the threat to himself, and walked away.

Had Martin done that, he would be alive today.

"struck first" chest poke at best.. yeah the black guy pushed him .. just as Zimmerman pushed Trayvon by chasing and chasing and chasing then reaching for his pocket when asked who he is why he's following him..

The white guy stopped hitting him probably because there were witnesses, because he probably had bad knees, and also because he's probably a better man than either Zimmerman or Trayvon. BS that gang banger did not pull a gun probably because he didn't have one and/or because there were witnesses.

 

[Sallow]

I certainly wouldn't. The old man retreated, but the young one couldn't let it go.

And that's the "shooting match".

Here in this scenario..the young man is doing what Zimmerman did.

Absofuckinglutely not! The young man is the aggressor, just like the other young man who is dead.
You have this idea in your head that Martin was justified to attack Zimmerman because he was an armed dude with a gun. Trayvon Martin was the aggressor and his irresponsible actions caused his death.

Just what "irresponsible" actions were those?

Buying candy and a drink from a convenience store?

Walking home?

Trying to get away from Zimmerman?

Which one?

Zimmerman called police at 7:09. At 7:16 he killed Trayvon Martin.

That's a whole, what? 7 minutes?

The "fight" lasted under a minute.

It's ALOT like the video I just showed you.

 

[R.D.]

Clearly if Trayvon was the thug he's being made to be, Zimmerman would be dead today.

So you missed the part where the thug punched out an armed man??

Who btw when saw the gun told GZ " you're going to die tonight"

Have not seen that evidence yet, wasn't that GZ's story?

The evidence that he confronted George is in, that he was punching George is and that George had a gun is in and that Travon is dead is most certainly in. So
Your assertion that " if Travyon was the thug he's being made to be, Zimmerman would be dead today" is remarkably dim witted.

Yes the defense has not actually begun yet...my last line was just a reminder of what's already common knowledge for those following the case.

 

[Sallow]

Because HE was the aggressor, you fool, not because of his color. The white guy had made his attempt to defuse the situation by moving to the front of the bus. The black kid pursued him and deserved his beat down. Self defense does not apply when the person committing the bad act is met with superior force. The white man in this case was the one acting lawfully.

This is further proof of your myopic black vs. white mentality. Why can't you see good vs. evil?

Exactly.

Give this man a cigar.

Light bulb moment? maybe... maybe not

Probably not.

Racism is a very difficult thing to overcome. Couple that with the "holy" gun and there you go.

 

[RKMBrown]

I certainly wouldn't. The old man retreated, but the young one couldn't let it go.

And that's the "shooting match".

Here in this scenario..the young man is doing what Zimmerman did.

Absofuckinglutely not! The young man is the aggressor, just like the other young man who is dead.
You have this idea in your head that Martin was justified to attack Zimmerman because he was an armed dude with a gun. Trayvon Martin was the aggressor and his irresponsible actions caused his death.

Why is the young man the aggressor? Because he pursued or because he "touched" the old man?

 

[Ernie S.]

Now you're just being a creepy ass cracker.

I am in the Neighborhood Watch, and I'm calling 911 right now.



Did I do that right, Trayvon defenders???

People ask me why I carry a gun. I tell them that cops are too heavy.

 

[Sallow]

So you missed the part where the thug punched out an armed man??

Who btw when saw the gun told GZ " you're going to die tonight"

Have not seen that evidence yet, wasn't that GZ's story?

The evidence that he confronted George is in, that he was punching George is and that George had a gun is in and that Travon is dead is most certainly in. So
Your assertion that " if Travyon was the thug he's being made to be, Zimmerman would be dead today" is remarkably dim witted.

Yes the defense has not actually begun yet...my last line was just a reminder of what's already common knowledge for those following the case.

Well actually no.

That's George's first story..when he told police he got out of the car to check the address and was hit from behind.

That didn't quite jibe with the 911 tape or the proximity of where body was found so Zimmerman told a couple of other stories..

And wound up with Martin asking him "What's your problem"..

Sort of a deviation..eh?

 

[Oldstyle]

Please, Meister. He is guilty of stalking the kid, that was brought out on the 911 call. He found him, shot him and killed him even though the child was only armed with Skittles and a can of tea.. Martin was only on this earth for 17 years. I'm sure you are old enough to understand how short a time that really is.

I realize he is going to walk away from this just as he walked away from Trayvon's dead body that night but other people have opinions just like you do.

Following someone while talking to the Police because you think they may be about to burglarize your neighborhood does not equal "stalking" no matter how many times you try and sensationalize it to make it so. George Zimmerman did NOTHING that night that should have prompted Trayvon Martin to punch him in the face. THAT is the crux of this case! THAT is the reason that Trayvon Martin was shot and killed! You don't commit assault and battery on another person simply because they dared to question you about why you are walking around inside of a gated community. Trayvon's girlfriend clearly testified that Trayvon had run from Zimmerman...was standing in front of the condo where he was staying...hundreds of yards from where the fight took place. Did he go inside to escape the "creepy assed Cracker"? Or did he retrace his steps to confront that man and punch him in the face? The Prosecution's case falls apart RIGHT THERE. Why? Because at that point...it's Trayvon Martin that is stalking George Zimmerman and not the other way around.

Oh your damn right it does.

And he was armed to boot.

And it's not even clear that Martin struck first.

There are 3 different accounts of the fight as well. And none of them are conclusive as to who even was on top. Also none of them said Martin was slamming Zimmerman's head into the ground.

That's not even relevant really.

The facts that are germane is..that a man carrying a concealed handgun stalked a kid who was not breaking the law. Then killed him.

In most states that's open and shut.

If Florida fucks this up..I'm pretty sure the Feds will swoop in.

If Florida fucks this up? This case shouldn't even have been brought to trial in the first place because there is no case against Zimmerman. Now you want the Federal Government to waste millions more tax payer dollars because you're too biased to recognize that fact?

Following someone is not a crime...especially when you're following them while reporting to the Police that you think their behavior is suspicious. The reason this particular situation spiraled out of control isn't because George Zimmerman was attempting to follow Trayvon Martin...it's because Trayvon Martin made the decision to walk BACK to where Zimmerman was returning to his SUV to confront the "Cracker". All of the physical evidence points to Martin starting that confrontation by punching Zimmerman in the nose...knocking Zimmerman onto his back and then sitting on him while he CONTINUED to assault Zimmerman. Martin didn't punch someone once and then walk away when they went down. He continued to assault someone who was flat on his back on the ground.

The germane facts of this case are that Trayvon Martin is the one who chose not to go into the safety of the condo he was staying at after running away from the stranger who was following him. Trayvon Martin is the one who chose to walk back several hundred yards to confront that stranger after referring to him as a "Cracker". That isn't something a defense witness or Zimmerman stated...that's something that a PROSECUTION witness stated...that's something a FRIEND of Trayvon Martin stated! When they did so the State's case for either Murder II or Manslaughter was shattered. This isn't Zimmerman "stalking" Martin...this is Martin deciding to seek out Zimmerman and have a confrontation with him over being followed. This is Martin deciding to walk away from the safety of the condo in front of him and walk several hundred yards AWAY from that condo to confront someone that he just described in a racially hateful manner.

 

[R.D.]

OLD MAN BEATS UP YOUNG BLACK BOY ON METRO BUS - YouTube

Here's another sort of similar circumstance.

Had the young man shot the old man..I doubt one Zimmerman supporter on this board would be jumping to the young man's defense.

First, the black guy struck first.

Second, the white guy stopped hitting him once he was down.

Had he continued to wail on the black guy after he was down, and no one was stopping him...and the black guy believed he was in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, he would have been within his rights to use lethal force to stop the attack.

But it didn't come to that...white guy ended the threat to himself, and walked away.

Had Martin done that, he would be alive today.

"struck first" chest poke at best.. yeah the black guy pushed him .. just as Zimmerman pushed Trayvon by chasing and chasing and chasing then reaching for his pocket when asked who he is why he's following him..

The white guy stopped hitting him probably because there were witnesses, because he probably had bad knees, and also because he's probably a better man than either Zimmerman or Trayvon. BS that gang banger did not pull a gun probably because he didn't have one and/or because there were witnesses.

So chest poke is a strike, he instigated. What are you arguing?

Zimmerman pushed Trayon...major liberties with the language here

Mind reading, medical diagnosis and a silly psych evaluations

 

[Missourian]

I agree.

Martin probably didn't even see the gun until it was buried in his chest.

Another lie Zimmerman told.

Sorry, you're going to have to elaborate.

My understanding is Zimmerman said Martin saw the gun AFTER he was on top of Zimmerman wailing away on him.

That seems totally consistent with the facts.

They struggle, gun goes off one time, Martin stops fighting.

Zimmerman had his hands free enough to take the gun out his holster and deliver a near perfect shot to Martin's chest which killed him instantly.

That doesn't sound like he was blacking out or near death.

Fear of death or grievous bodily harm and "blacking out or near death" are two totally different states.

The Prosecutions witness testified that under the circumstances, Zimmerman was at a minimum, it danger of grievous bodily harm.

She testified that "But any sort of head trauma can result in an internal injury, meaning bleeding into the brain, skull fractures."

And when asked by O'mara "So stopping the attack is what allowed him to survive it. Would you agree?"

She answers: "It could have, yes."

That's the prosecutions witness's testimony.

 

[RKMBrown]

Exactly.

Give this man a cigar.

Light bulb moment? maybe... maybe not

Probably not.

Racism is a very difficult thing to overcome. Couple that with the "holy" gun and there you go.

Well to Ernie's defense, his issue may be old guys verses younger guys.. or based on the the lack of video and / or decent witnesses for the prosecution in the TM case. Have to remember we don't have a video like this bus showing zimmerman's face as he cursed about Trayvon and gave chase and reached for his "phone" at the start of the conversation.

 

[R.D.]

Have not seen that evidence yet, wasn't that GZ's story?

The evidence that he confronted George is in, that he was punching George is and that George had a gun is in and that Travon is dead is most certainly in. So
Your assertion that " if Travyon was the thug he's being made to be, Zimmerman would be dead today" is remarkably dim witted.

Yes the defense has not actually begun yet...my last line was just a reminder of what's already common knowledge for those following the case.

Well actually no.

That's George's first story..when he told police he got out of the car to check the address and was hit from behind.

That didn't quite jibe with the 911 tape or the proximity of where body was found so Zimmerman told a couple of other stories..

And wound up with Martin asking him "What's your problem"..

Sort of a deviation..eh?

We'll have to see. None of that removes the testimony already on the record pointing to TM being the aggressor.

 

[legaleagle_45]

I guess what I am asking for is objectivity...how would you go about making the case that Trayvon could have been acting in self defense and that GZ could have been considered the aggressor at least in Trayvons eyes in that moment.

I would try to show that GZ was the initial aggressor. That he grabbed Martin in order to detain him for the police. To this end I would use Dee Dee's testimony that Trayvon yelled "Get off, get off!!" to suggest such a possibility. I would then assert that Martin was thus justified in punching GZ to free himself. When GZ fell to the ground as a result of the punch, he suffered injuries to his head... GZ also dragged Martin down on top of him, either intentionally or inadvertently and as a result of grabbing him previously. Martin struggled to get up, yelling help help. Finally freeing himself, Martin was able to get up and was backing away when GZ got up and shot him in the chest.. Martin fell face first and GZ got on top of him to check to make sure he was dead.

This scenario will ultimately rely upon forensics. From what I understand of that evidence it is somewhat conflicting. The shot was fired while the barrel was against the hoody, but 6 to 12 inches from Martins chest. This is indicative that Martin was leaning over GZ and the hoody hanging down at the time the shot was fired. On the other hand, the trajectory of the bullet was straight, from front to back and not at any angle. This is indicative that both parties were standing at the time of the shooting because it would seem that a substantial angle of the trajectory would be present if GZ was on the ground shooting upwards at Martin. However, I am not a forensic expert and will anxiously await that testimony.

I am unwilling to exonerate or convict GZ at this point and will await all of the evidence before doing one or the other... but if the trial ends right now, GZ walks and properly so IMHO. The prosecution has clearly not proven its case... yet.

 

[Sallow]

Light bulb moment? maybe... maybe not

Probably not.

Racism is a very difficult thing to overcome. Couple that with the "holy" gun and there you go.

Well to Ernie's defense, his issue may be old guys verses younger guys.. or based on the the lack of video and / or decent witnesses for the prosecution in the TM case. Have to remember we don't have a video like this bus showing zimmerman's face as he cursed about Trayvon and gave chase and reached for his "phone" at the start of the conversation.

Ernie's a decent guy.

I have no personal problems with him.

Probably would buy him a beer if he was in a bar.

 

[Ernie S.]

And that has nothing to do with the point I made.

Had the young man shot the old man, because he was losing the fight and felt that his life with in danger..none of you folks would have any trouble putting the young man in jail.

And that's telling.

Because HE was the aggressor, you fool, not because of his color. The white guy had made his attempt to defuse the situation by moving to the front of the bus. The black kid pursued him and deserved his beat down. Self defense does not apply when the person committing the bad act is met with superior force. The white man in this case was the one acting lawfully.

This is further proof of your myopic black vs. white mentality. Why can't you see good vs. evil?

Exactly.

Give this man a cigar.

Except that you still mistakenly believe that George Zimmerman was the aggressor.