The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[P F Tinmore]

Palestinian Americans (Arabic: فلسطينيو أمريكا‎), are Americans of Palestinian ancestry. It is difficult to say when the first Palestinian immigrants arrived in the United States; however, most of the first immigrants to arrive were Christians escaping persecution in Ottoman Palestine in the late 19th century. Later immigrants came to the country fleeing the Arab–Israeli or Palestinian conflicts.

The right to return does not apply only to refugees.

What does it change, You said no country is obliged to accept foreign nationals.

I did.

Israel is not obliged to accept anyone who is a citizen of another country.
Jordan, Lebanon and Syria are obliged to accept their nationals who were illegal immigrants.

This should clear everything up for you.

 

[Shusha]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

 

[Shusha]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

 

[P F Tinmore]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

 

[Shusha]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

Come on. Don't play games.

How do we ensure both the right of return for the Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the Jewish peoples self-determination?

 

[ForeverYoung436]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

Come on. Don't play games.

How do we ensure both the right of return for the Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the Jewish peoples self-determination?

I personally don't believe in "right of return." It's unrealistic. My grandparents were forced out of Poland. Could I really go back to their town, reclaim their butcher shop (which probably doesn't exist anymore) and their house, and just throw out the ppl who are living there now? I never even got financial compensation for that, and I never considered myself to be a "refugee" anyway. I guess the Palestinians and the other Arabs never listened to that Tom Petty song, where he sang, "You don't have to live like a Refugee."

 

[Shusha]

I personally don't believe in "right of return." It's unrealistic. My grandparents were forced out of Poland. Could I really go back to their town, reclaim their butcher shop (which probably doesn't exist anymore) and their house, and just throw out the ppl who are living there now? I never even got financial compensation for that, and I never considered myself to be a "refugee" anyway. I guess the Palestinians and the other Arabs never listened to that Tom Petty song, where he sang, "You don't have to live like a Refugee."

We agree. The "right of return" is a right to return to the country of origin (not to the exact property, despite arguments made to the contrary by TP) and the right to compensation for lost property.

The durable solutions for refugees are: voluntary return to country of origin, resettlement in the host country or resettlement in a third country. The expectation of return of an exact piece of property is unrealistic and unachievable. At worse, it only creates a new set of refugees.

Further, descendants of refugees are not refugees.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

Come on. Don't play games.

How do we ensure both the right of return for the Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the Jewish peoples self-determination?

Israel should have thought of that before it created all of those refugees.

 

[Shusha]

The question which remains unanswered is: How do we ensure both the "right of return" for Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty?

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

Come on. Don't play games.

How do we ensure both the right of return for the Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the Jewish peoples self-determination?

Israel should have thought of that before it created all of those refugees.

Arabs should have thought of that before they attacked Israel.

What's the solution, here?

 

[montelatici]

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

Come on. Don't play games.

How do we ensure both the right of return for the Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the Jewish peoples self-determination?

Israel should have thought of that before it created all of those refugees.

Arabs should have thought of that before they attacked Israel.

What's the solution, here?

The Jews attacked and colonized Palestine. The Muslims and Christians just tried to defend their homes.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel has one basic problem. Israel and international law are mutually exclusive.

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

Come on. Don't play games.

How do we ensure both the right of return for the Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the Jewish peoples self-determination?

Israel should have thought of that before it created all of those refugees.

Arabs should have thought of that before they attacked Israel.

What's the solution, here?

Another opinion. Got any proof of that?

 

[Shusha]

So the Jewish people are to be denied their rights to self-determination?

Why?

That is an interesting opinion. Where did you get it?

Come on. Don't play games.

How do we ensure both the right of return for the Arab Palestinians while also ensuring the Jewish peoples self-determination?

Israel should have thought of that before it created all of those refugees.

Arabs should have thought of that before they attacked Israel.

What's the solution, here?

Another opinion. Got any proof of that?

Sigh. As yours was.

Stop playing games. What's the solution? You have already said to me in other conversations that self- determination is the RIGHT of the Jewish people. How do we preserve those rights while also addressing the rights of the Arab (and Jewish) refugees?

 

[Sixties Fan]

But all this is only part of a continuing story. In 1940, one or another of the three great world Zionist leaders was in America throughout the year, giving speeches, holding meetings, and forming important alliances that would become essential to the Zionist cause during the historic decade to come. Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsky, and Weizmann did not win their race against history in 1940, but their missions to America formed a chapter in a larger Zionist chronicle, one that had begun more than a half-century earlier and would continue throughout the ensuing World War, culminating eight years later in the founding of the modern state of Israel.

Indeed, the three missions contributed to a dawning awareness on the part of a significant number of American Jews that their own futures were linked to that of the Jews in Europe and Palestine. Over time, this awareness, and the commitment it engendered, became more widespread and powerful, and would prove critical not only to the formation but to the survival and flourishing of the Jewish state.

(full article online)

David Ben-Gurion's 1940 Mission to Rouse the Fighting Spirit of American Jews

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ilan Pappe - The Zionist Ideology of the State of Israel.

 

[Sixties Fan]

At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two.

Here is a clear and typical example—in detail, which is where the devil resides—of Pappe’s handiwork. I take this example from The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. On February 2, 1948, a young Jewish scientist named Aharon Katzir came to see David Ben-Gurion, the chairman of the Jewish Agency Executive and the leader of the Jewish community in Palestine. Two months earlier, the General Assembly of the United Nations had recommended the partition of the country into two states. The Zionist establishment had accepted Resolution 181, but the Palestinian Arab leadership, and the surrounding Arab states, had rejected it—and Palestinian militiamen began to shoot at Jewish traffic, pedestrians, and settlements. The first Arab-Israeli war had begun.

(full article online)

The Liar as Hero
-------------

Ilan Pappe, a history lecturer at the University of Haifa, freely admits that, in his view, facts are irrelevant when it comes to the history of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. "Indeed the struggle is about ideology, not about facts, Who knows what facts are? We try to convince as many people as we can that our interpretation of the facts is the correct one, and we do it because of ideological reasons, not because we are truthseekers," Pappe said in an interview with the French newspaper Le Soir, Nov. 29, 1999.

Elsewhere, Pappe elaborated on his attitude toward historical investigation and academic objectivity: "Historical Narratives . . . when written by historians involved deeply in the subject matter they write about, such as in the case of Israeli historians who write about the Palestine conflict, is motivated also...by a wish to make a point" (History News Network, April 5, 2004.) A more complete collection of Pappe's statements repudiating the value of historical facts is available here.

In light of Pappe's openness about his contemptuous view of scholarship, and his rejection of historical facts in favor of ideology, it is negligent that Scott Wilson's profile of him omits this key context. The piece portrayed the Haifa historian as a "revisionist scholar" who languishes in "nearly complete isolation" in Israel supposedly due to his alleged myth-busting research and political views, in which he opposes the existence of a Jewish state, even within its 1948 boundaries. For example, Wilson quotes without challenge Pappe's absurd allegation that "My research debunked all of the lessons about Israel's creation that I had been raised on."

(full article online)

CAMERA: The Washington Post Ignores the Facts on Pappe

 

[Sixties Fan]

Remembering the Thirty-Five

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Sixties Fan]

Oh, Joy !!!

You found one more Jewish person who does what you love the most:

Say absolutely NOTHING.

"Israel is a white democracy" so on and so forth.......

All the things Tinmore loves to hear about Israel.

"Israeli framing"
-------------
Nope, I do not consider him a "self-hating Jew", just a Jew who has no idea about Judaism and what it means to be a Jew and following in the infamous footsteps of those like Paul of Tarsus and Pablo Christian. Two ex Jews who did everything they could to become rich at the expense of Judaism and all Jews.


With friends like this, Tin, you truly do not need to look for your brain.
Like all of them, you will never find it.

 

[Shusha]

LOL. Israel has succeeded in capturing the framing? Hardly. Just the opposite.