The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Shusha]

The foundational discussion is NOT terrorism. He is wrong. The foundational discussion is the right of the Jewish people to self-determination and sovereignty in their historical homeland.

 

[Shusha]

Its interesting where he discusses tribal nationalism. And labels it as a basis of Israeli nationalism. I think he is wrong. What I think is interesting about it is that Jewish nationalism was inclusive in many ways. Might have been. It was the backlash of Arab tribal nationalism which pushed Israeli nationalism into a more exclusive place. By necessity. And by necessity means "for survival". It was the Arab tribal nationalism's use of violence towards the Jewish people which compelled the Jewish people to defend themselves as a survival mechanism. (Again!). Without the Arab violence and their own tribal nationalism -- I think the Jewish nationalism would have been quite inclusive. Like the US.

 

[Shusha]

And he has some nerve discussing pan-nationalism in this context. Come on. Talk about framing the discussion.

 

[Shusha]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

Not true. The British "offered" the Palestinians a minority position in the government when they were over 90% of the population. Everything the Palestinians opposed, like the settler colonial project, went through anyway.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

Not true. The British "offered" the Palestinians a minority position in the government when they were over 90% of the population. Everything the Palestinians opposed, like the settler colonial project, went through anyway.

There is no Jewish settler colonial project.

Only the Indigenous Jewish people joining the other indigenous Jews on their ancient homeland to become sovereign over it again.

The Arabs, with their attacks and endless NOs to anything which would give Jews any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland are losers, and they hate losing.

That is their problem.

They lost all the wars against Israel.

To the VICTOR comes the spoils.

And Israel is living the fruits of its success, as the Arabs are living the fruits of their loss of wars, and loss of honor and the hatred of Jews they have learned from the Quran.

The Arab Muslim leaders need to abandon their shame culture and think about the future as oil and donations are not going to be there forever.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

Not true. The British "offered" the Palestinians a minority position in the government when they were over 90% of the population. Everything the Palestinians opposed, like the settler colonial project, went through anyway.

There is no Jewish settler colonial project.

Only the Indigenous Jewish people joining the other indigenous Jews on their ancient homeland to become sovereign over it again.

The Arabs, with their attacks and endless NOs to anything which would give Jews any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland are losers, and they hate losing.

That is their problem.

They lost all the wars against Israel.

To the VICTOR comes the spoils.

And Israel is living the fruits of its success, as the Arabs are living the fruits of their loss of wars, and loss of honor and the hatred of Jews they have learned from the Quran.

The Arab Muslim leaders need to abandon their shame culture and think about the future as oil and donations are not going to be there forever.

Thank you Mr. Israeli Talking Points.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

Not true. The British "offered" the Palestinians a minority position in the government when they were over 90% of the population. Everything the Palestinians opposed, like the settler colonial project, went through anyway.

There is no Jewish settler colonial project.

Only the Indigenous Jewish people joining the other indigenous Jews on their ancient homeland to become sovereign over it again.

The Arabs, with their attacks and endless NOs to anything which would give Jews any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland are losers, and they hate losing.

That is their problem.

They lost all the wars against Israel.

To the VICTOR comes the spoils.

And Israel is living the fruits of its success, as the Arabs are living the fruits of their loss of wars, and loss of honor and the hatred of Jews they have learned from the Quran.

The Arab Muslim leaders need to abandon their shame culture and think about the future as oil and donations are not going to be there forever.

Thank you Mr. Israeli Talking Points.

You are welcome, super fan of losers.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

Not true. The British "offered" the Palestinians a minority position in the government when they were over 90% of the population. Everything the Palestinians opposed, like the settler colonial project, went through anyway.

There is no Jewish settler colonial project.

Only the Indigenous Jewish people joining the other indigenous Jews on their ancient homeland to become sovereign over it again.

The Arabs, with their attacks and endless NOs to anything which would give Jews any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland are losers, and they hate losing.

That is their problem.

They lost all the wars against Israel.

To the VICTOR comes the spoils.

And Israel is living the fruits of its success, as the Arabs are living the fruits of their loss of wars, and loss of honor and the hatred of Jews they have learned from the Quran.

The Arab Muslim leaders need to abandon their shame culture and think about the future as oil and donations are not going to be there forever.

Thank you Mr. Israeli Talking Points.

You are welcome, super fan of losers.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

Not true. The British "offered" the Palestinians a minority position in the government when they were over 90% of the population. Everything the Palestinians opposed, like the settler colonial project, went through anyway.

There is no Jewish settler colonial project.

Only the Indigenous Jewish people joining the other indigenous Jews on their ancient homeland to become sovereign over it again.

The Arabs, with their attacks and endless NOs to anything which would give Jews any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland are losers, and they hate losing.

That is their problem.

They lost all the wars against Israel.

To the VICTOR comes the spoils.

And Israel is living the fruits of its success, as the Arabs are living the fruits of their loss of wars, and loss of honor and the hatred of Jews they have learned from the Quran.

The Arab Muslim leaders need to abandon their shame culture and think about the future as oil and donations are not going to be there forever.

Thank you Mr. Israeli Talking Points.

You are welcome, super fan of losers.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.

Empty threats. As always.

 

[montelatici]

Okay, so now I am on to Part 2.

He says (paraphrased): Had the Jewish people come to the land and said: We see this land as our homeland, we want to revive the Jewish Nation, a Hebrew nation, we want to speak Hebrew, we want to come back, we want a Hebrew university, Hebrew literature, we are being persecuted and we need a place of refuge. But we acknowledge and recognize an Arab peoples living here ... there would have been no conflict.

Dude! That is EXACTLY what happened. That is exactly what the Jewish people did. That is exactly what the international community supported.

Not true. The British "offered" the Palestinians a minority position in the government when they were over 90% of the population. Everything the Palestinians opposed, like the settler colonial project, went through anyway.

There is no Jewish settler colonial project.

Only the Indigenous Jewish people joining the other indigenous Jews on their ancient homeland to become sovereign over it again.

The Arabs, with their attacks and endless NOs to anything which would give Jews any sovereignty over their own ancient homeland are losers, and they hate losing.

That is their problem.

They lost all the wars against Israel.

To the VICTOR comes the spoils.

And Israel is living the fruits of its success, as the Arabs are living the fruits of their loss of wars, and loss of honor and the hatred of Jews they have learned from the Quran.

The Arab Muslim leaders need to abandon their shame culture and think about the future as oil and donations are not going to be there forever.

It has been a colonial project since at least 1899:

"Zionists plan to colonize Palestine in 1899 NY Times

An article about a Conference of Zionists published on July 20, 1899 in the New York Times depicts how the Conference sought to “colonize Palestine” and discussed the purchasing of land with English Zionists.
World Bulletin/News Desk

An article about a Conference of Zionists published on July 20, 1899 in the New York Times expresses that the Zionists “will colonize Palestine.”

The article explains that the conference discussed a paper from the English Zionist Federation “proposing the re-establishment of Judea as an independent State, suggesting the purchase of the Maccabean sites in Palestine, and the beginning of the work by the establishment of a Jewish colony and a Jewish Agricultural College there.”

It further clarifies that “The site to be purchased comprises about fifty acres, six miles from a station on the railroad between Jappa and Jerusalem, and within sight of the sea and a large stretch of the Palestinian coast.”

It notes that English Zionists have gathered 2,500 dollars in the currency of the period and request that quantity from the American Zionists.

The article also explains that “On motion of Dr. Wise, the Federation voted $100 as the nucleus of the required fund of $2,500, the remainder to be raised by subscriptions from the 125 societies and individuals, both Jews and Gentiles. A general appeal to the public will be made.”

It also conveys that delegates will be elected at the Zionist meeting in Baltimore.

The straightforward and comfortable manner with which the colonization is pursued is indicative how, before having to be concerned with the image of Zionism and public relations, Zionist leaders depicted their movement as a colonial mission during a time in which European nations were colonial powers. "

Zionists plan to colonize Palestine in 1899 NY Times - World Bulletin

 

[P F Tinmore]

There are two narratives, but one reality: Palestinian dispossession

I just finished reading Palestine The Reality: The Inside Story of the Balfour Declaration 1917-1938, by J.M.N. Jeffries, a British journalist for The Daily Mail at the time of the events discussed. Who would think that a 748-page book on the diplomatic history of the Balfour Declaration and its aftermath could be a page-turner, but this book definitely is. It’s a truly remarkable achievement and a fascinating read in many ways. First a bit of back story.

The book was published originally in Great Britain in 1940.

Regarding the significance of the book for us, I think it’s important for people to read an account by an honest observer of the formative events early on, someone who hasn’t yet had time to grow accustomed to the reality of the Jewish State in Palestine.

What Jeffries shows so dramatically is that there may be two narratives, but only one of them, the Palestinian one, has much connection to reality. As we see from his vantage point so clearly, the land of Palestine was stolen from its people by a major world power and given to another group of people who had no claim to it whatsoever.

There are two narratives, but one reality: Palestinian dispossession

 

[Shusha]

...there may be two narratives, but only one of them, the Palestinian one, has much connection to reality. As we see from his vantage point so clearly, the land of Palestine was stolen from its people ...

There is no space in the world to tell the narrative of the two existing peoples of the place where the one peoples exist and the other does not. Both peoples stories have a connection to reality. The land of "Palestine" WAS stolen from its people. It was stolen FIRST from its Jewish people, nearly three thousand years ago. To discount that "narrative" and pretend that it is not a part of "reality" is to deny not only reality -- but the relevance and significance of an entire people and their historical homeland. The Jewish peoples "reality" is just as real and significant and relevant as any other peoples. If you want to say that the land was stolen AGAIN or BACK from those who usurped and those who inherited the land from the Jewish people -- that's fine. I'll not argue. But to say that the Jewish people's claim to the land is outside "reality" is absurd.

 

[montelatici]

...there may be two narratives, but only one of them, the Palestinian one, has much connection to reality. As we see from his vantage point so clearly, the land of Palestine was stolen from its people ...

There is no space in the world to tell the narrative of the two existing peoples of the place where the one peoples exist and the other does not. Both peoples stories have a connection to reality. The land of "Palestine" WAS stolen from its people. It was stolen FIRST from its Jewish people, nearly three thousand years ago. To discount that "narrative" and pretend that it is not a part of "reality" is to deny not only reality -- but the relevance and significance of an entire people and their historical homeland. The Jewish peoples "reality" is just as real and significant and relevant as any other peoples. If you want to say that the land was stolen AGAIN or BACK from those who usurped and those who inherited the land from the Jewish people -- that's fine. I'll not argue. But to say that the Jewish people's claim to the land is outside "reality" is absurd.

It was stolen by the ancient Jews from the people living in the area before the Jews. Except for the Samaritans (as a people) adopted Judaism. These Jews and other people living in the area eventally adopted Christianity and then most adopted Islam. The people the Europeans stole the land from are the descendants of Jews and others that adopted Christianity first and then many of whom later adopted Islam.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

...there may be two narratives, but only one of them, the Palestinian one, has much connection to reality. As we see from his vantage point so clearly, the land of Palestine was stolen from its people ...

There is no space in the world to tell the narrative of the two existing peoples of the place where the one peoples exist and the other does not. Both peoples stories have a connection to reality. The land of "Palestine" WAS stolen from its people. It was stolen FIRST from its Jewish people, nearly three thousand years ago. To discount that "narrative" and pretend that it is not a part of "reality" is to deny not only reality -- but the relevance and significance of an entire people and their historical homeland. The Jewish peoples "reality" is just as real and significant and relevant as any other peoples. If you want to say that the land was stolen AGAIN or BACK from those who usurped and those who inherited the land from the Jewish people -- that's fine. I'll not argue. But to say that the Jewish people's claim to the land is outside "reality" is absurd.

It was stolen by the ancient Jews from the people living in the area before the Jews. Except for the Samaritans (as a people) adopted Judaism. These Jews and other people living in the area eventally adopted Christianity and then most adopted Islam. The people the Europeans stole the land from are the descendants of Jews and others that adopted Christianity first and then many of whom later adopted Islam.

Keep telling yourself that.

 

[montelatici]

...there may be two narratives, but only one of them, the Palestinian one, has much connection to reality. As we see from his vantage point so clearly, the land of Palestine was stolen from its people ...

There is no space in the world to tell the narrative of the two existing peoples of the place where the one peoples exist and the other does not. Both peoples stories have a connection to reality. The land of "Palestine" WAS stolen from its people. It was stolen FIRST from its Jewish people, nearly three thousand years ago. To discount that "narrative" and pretend that it is not a part of "reality" is to deny not only reality -- but the relevance and significance of an entire people and their historical homeland. The Jewish peoples "reality" is just as real and significant and relevant as any other peoples. If you want to say that the land was stolen AGAIN or BACK from those who usurped and those who inherited the land from the Jewish people -- that's fine. I'll not argue. But to say that the Jewish people's claim to the land is outside "reality" is absurd.

It was stolen by the ancient Jews from the people living in the area before the Jews. Except for the Samaritans (as a people) adopted Judaism. These Jews and other people living in the area eventally adopted Christianity and then most adopted Islam. The people the Europeans stole the land from are the descendants of Jews and others that adopted Christianity first and then many of whom later adopted Islam.

Keep telling yourself that.

No need, historical fact is historical fact.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

BTW, I am a typical Ashkenaz Jew of Eastern European/ Polish descent. I am taking a DNA test next week to see where my origins are, specifically if they're from the Middle East. I will be honest and post the results, one way or the other, even if I am descended from Khazars. (Incidentally, more than half of the Jewish population of Israel are from Mizrahi/ Middle Eastern descent, in any event.)

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Sixties Fan]

Jews were not granted Israel because of the Holocaust.

And it was not "somebody else's country". It is the Jewish Ancient homeland.
It was never "Palestinian" homeland. It was Muslim conquered land, Christian conquered land, Roman conquered land.

The Muslims always protected the Jews. Sure!!!!

What does Alex or George know? Nothing !

 

[rylah]

Palestinian Americans (Arabic: فلسطينيو أمريكا‎), are Americans of Palestinian ancestry. It is difficult to say when the first Palestinian immigrants arrived in the United States; however, most of the first immigrants to arrive were Christians escaping persecution in Ottoman Palestine in the late 19th century. Later immigrants came to the country fleeing the Arab–Israeli or Palestinian conflicts.

The right to return does not apply only to refugees.

What does it change, You said no country is obliged to accept foreign nationals.

I did.

Israel is not obliged to accept anyone who is a citizen of another country.
Jordan, Lebanon and Syria are obliged to accept their nationals who were illegal immigrants.

This should clear everything up for you.

It's pretty clear You try to hold the stick at the both ends.
Arabs came from a much wider variety of countries than the Jews, yet You call only one group foreigners, the one that originated in the land and bears its name.

Q. 2 posts ago You, stated no country is obliged to accept foreign nationals, so citizens of which country is Israel obliged to accept?