The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Boston1]

You are hallucinating if you think the Arabs were an indigenous people outside the Arabian peninsula.

Ever heard of a little ditty called the Arab conquest ? Right around say the 7th to 9th centuries ?

Say 3500 years AFTER the appearance of the proto Israeli peoples in the Canaan Valley area.

 

[Challenger]

UN 1514 (XV) is another in long series of general assembly votes that are NON BINDING. Suggestions or intended to lend moral support.

Oh good grief, GA resolutions in themselves are not binding on States, true, but they ARE effectively binding if they restate legal principles found in the UN Charter (which IS binding on all members) Customary International Law, Treaties, or ICJ Judicial decisions and can be used as a reference to those legal principles. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (GA 217) is one example, so is the Declaration on Elimination of Discrimination against Women (GA2263) and the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (GA1514). These three GA declarations have even been used by U.S. legal system since the late1970's as a source of legal principles that can be applied by the courts to determine matters of International law. GA resolutions can no longer be just dismissed with a blanket "they're non-binding".

 

[Challenger]

What is binding is the Geneva conventions ;--)

....really? Check in with your handlers, Zionist Israel considers the Geneva Conventions don't apply in the Occupied territories. Why Israel Is Not Violating Fourth Geneva Convention

 

[Challenger]

You are hallucinating if you think the Arabs were an indigenous people outside the Arabian peninsula.

Ever heard of a little ditty called the Arab conquest ? Right around say the 7th to 9th centuries ?

Say 3500 years AFTER the appearance of the proto Israeli peoples in the Canaan Valley area.

You are really confused aren't you? The Arab "conquerors" did not displace the indigenous people, nor did they convert them by force; they needed as wide a tax base as possible. The Roman elites relocated back to the Empire whose new borders now ran along the Taurus mountains. The natives were given local autonomy so long as they provided the required tribute. It took over 100 years for the native indigenous population of Palestine to convert to Islam and adopt Arabic as the lingua franca and Arabic culture. There is no historical evidence for any mass migration or mass displacement of peoples during the 7th to 9th centuries, in the region, so the people indigenous to Palestine in the 7th century are still the indigenous people of Palestine today, with the exception of course, of the mass influx of European Zionist colonists in the 20th century.

"Canaan valley"? Where's that? The only major valley in the area is the Jordan valley

 

[Challenger]

...Here's a thought, why don't you give all of Palestine to the Palestinian's and all the Israeli's can move to the US. We'll give you Wisconsin. The Mormons already got dibs on Utah.

Good Idea, or Montana; that's pretty empty. If Utah can cope with 15 million Mormons, Montana or Wisconsin should be able to absorb 5 million new "American citizens". They can even take their Wall with them, and wail at it there (although the noise might annoy the neighbours )

 

[Phoenall]

What is binding is the Geneva conventions ;--)

....really? Check in with your handlers, Zionist Israel considers the Geneva Conventions don't apply in the Occupied territories. Why Israel Is Not Violating Fourth Geneva Convention

WRONG what Israel says is the part of the Geneva convention applying to international conflicts does not apply once the self appointed rulers gave up their claims to the land under occupation. The P.A did not exist in 1967 when Israel occupied the land so the Geneva conventions don't apply

 

[Phoenall]

You are hallucinating if you think the Arabs were an indigenous people outside the Arabian peninsula.

Ever heard of a little ditty called the Arab conquest ? Right around say the 7th to 9th centuries ?

Say 3500 years AFTER the appearance of the proto Israeli peoples in the Canaan Valley area.

You are really confused aren't you? The Arab "conquerors" did not displace the indigenous people, nor did they convert them by force; they needed as wide a tax base as possible. The Roman elites relocated back to the Empire whose new borders now ran along the Taurus mountains. The natives were given local autonomy so long as they provided the required tribute. It took over 100 years for the native indigenous population of Palestine to convert to Islam and adopt Arabic as the lingua franca and Arabic culture. There is no historical evidence for any mass migration or mass displacement of peoples during the 7th to 9th centuries, in the region, so the people indigenous to Palestine in the 7th century are still the indigenous people of Palestine today, with the exception of course, of the mass influx of European Zionist colonists in the 20th century.

"Canaan valley"? Where's that? The only major valley in the area is the Jordan valley

It took a lot longer than 100 years as Rome left in the late 4C and islam was not invented in mecca until the mid 7C. It then took a few more hundred years before the lands outside of the Arabian peninsular where converted by force of arms to islam.
It was not always called the river Jordan you know

 

[Phoenall]

...Here's a thought, why don't you give all of Palestine to the Palestinian's and all the Israeli's can move to the US. We'll give you Wisconsin. The Mormons already got dibs on Utah.

Good Idea, or Montana; that's pretty empty. If Utah can cope with 15 million Mormons, Montana or Wisconsin should be able to absorb 5 million new "American citizens". They can even take their Wall with them, and wail at it there (although the noise might annoy the neighbours )

RACIST MUCH.

But if they did take the western wall what would hold up the carbuncles on top. And how quickly would you be demanding they be driven out because they are doing so much better than the old invaders.

 

[Challenger]

It took a lot longer than 100 years as Rome left in the late 4C and islam was not invented in mecca until the mid 7C. It then took a few more hundred years before the lands outside of the Arabian peninsular where converted by force of arms to islam.

Wow, what a spectacular display of historical ignorance.

It was not always called the river Jordan you know

What else was it called then?

 

[Shusha]

Here's a thought, why don't you give all of Palestine to the Palestinian's and all the Israeli's can move to the US. We'll give you Wisconsin. The Mormons already got dibs on Utah.

Really? And you don't think the Wisconsiners are going to have a problem with that? You think yet another expulsion in the Jewish people's history is going to be the solution to the problem? Its been done time and time again and yet the "Jewish problem" remains. No matter where in the world the Jewish people are everyone is still looking for some kind of solution to the Jewish problem.

Well, we are finished with other people looking for a "solution" to our existence. We went home. We returned to our homeland. And whatever "Palestine" is to the "Palestinians", it is ALSO the homeland of the Jewish people. It always has been.

And when we say "never again" we mean that never again will we be treated like a problem to be solved or shipped away and made to go elsewhere. We are exercising our rights to our homeland. And if we have to fight for it, then so be it.

 

[Challenger]

And you don't think the Wisconsiners are going to have a problem with that?

Why should they? Even if, like the Palestinians did, they did have a problem with that, they too can be ignored.

 

[Challenger]

...it is ALSO the homeland of the Jewish people...

Only because your fantasy novel tells you it is. If I were a Roman Catholic, would that give me the right to go to Italy and kick an Italian and his familly out of his home?

If you as a Jewish person want to live in a future Muslim Palestine, I wouldn't stop you or object, and neither would most Palestinians. Problem with the Zionist colonists there at the moment is, they don't just want to live there, they want to rule there as colonial masters in an exclusively Jewish state.

 

[Boston1]

It took a lot longer than 100 years as Rome left in the late 4C and islam was not invented in mecca until the mid 7C. It then took a few more hundred years before the lands outside of the Arabian peninsular where converted by force of arms to islam.

Wow, what a spectacular display of historical ignorance.

It was not always called the river Jordan you know

What else was it called then?

Uh, speaking of historical ignorance you might want to take a look at the following map.

Produced in 1709

Now here's the fun part. Its also one of the only places you'll see the word palestine in association with Canaan. The term palestine is actually very very rare on historical maps prior to about the mid 1800s

OK so Challenger here's a challenge for you ;--) Since you now know where Canaan is, can you point to the Canaan Valley ?????

Cheers

 

[Challenger]

It took a lot longer than 100 years as Rome left in the late 4C and islam was not invented in mecca until the mid 7C. It then took a few more hundred years before the lands outside of the Arabian peninsular where converted by force of arms to islam.

Wow, what a spectacular display of historical ignorance.

It was not always called the river Jordan you know

What else was it called then?

Uh, speaking of historical ignorance you might want to take a look at the following map.

Produced in 1709

Now here's the fun part. Its also one of the only places you'll see the word palestine in association with Canaan. The term palestine is actually very very rare on historical maps prior to about the mid 1800s

OK so Challenger here's a challenge for you ;--) Since you now know where Canaan is, can you point to the Canaan Valley ?????

Cheers

Hey, you got me on that one, no I can't. Can you? I found the river Jordan though. Nice European interpretation of Bible lands though, looks a lot like Middle Earth.

While we are on the subject of maps, here's a 17th century reproduction of a Roman map of the 4th 5th centuries, not a mention of a Canaan valley or Israel, just Palestine.

No idea what you are trying to prove or demonstrate, but I'll play. Your go.

 

[Boston1]

Well you were having trouble with where the Canaan Valley area was, so I showed you a historic map of Canaan.

Try and keep up

 

[Challenger]

So that's a resounding, "Boston1 can't point to the Canaan valley either" O.K. that was a waste of time. I'll bear that in mind the next time you want to play games.

 

[Boston1]

You seem to be having trouble following the conversation. You'd asked where the Canaan valley was so I provided you with a map of Canaan.

Maybe this one from the 1690s will help you discover your error

You might take note that this one doesn't make any mention of a place called palestine.

So the question is, can you find the valley ? Or are you seriously suggesting there are no valleys in canaan ;--)

Its also of note that the Judaic people today inhabit the exact same area where their ancestors first developed from the more primitive stone age inhabitants something like 6500 years ago.

As I'm sure the rest of us can recall in your post # 384 you asked

Quote

"Canaan valley"? Where's that? The only major valley in the area is the Jordan valley

End Quote

But my favorite part was you followed that up in post # 389 with

Quote

Wow, what a spectacular display of historical ignorance.

End Quote

A statement I can wholeheartedly agree with, but of course not for the reasons you intended when you made that statement. Particularly if you are going to insist the Arab conquest didn't involve the slaughter or forced expulsion of the lands it conquered. The Judaic people have always been highly resistive to forced conversions..

In any case, maybe now that you know where Canaan is, you can point out the Canaan valley to us.

 

[Phoenall]

And you don't think the Wisconsiners are going to have a problem with that?

Why should they? Even if, like the Palestinians did, they did have a problem with that, they too can be ignored.

Which Palestinians are those, the ones who had lived there for over 4,500 years, or the ones that invaded in 1947 and stayed as refugees.

 

[Phoenall]

...it is ALSO the homeland of the Jewish people...

Only because your fantasy novel tells you it is. If I were a Roman Catholic, would that give me the right to go to Italy and kick an Italian and his familly out of his home?

If you as a Jewish person want to live in a future Muslim Palestine, I wouldn't stop you or object, and neither would most Palestinians. Problem with the Zionist colonists there at the moment is, they don't just want to live there, they want to rule there as colonial masters in an exclusively Jewish state.

If you could show that they had stolen your home in 1948 and evicted you from it

There will never be a Jew living in a muslim Palestine the muslims have made this one of their laws. What Zionist colonists are those, which nation sent them out to colonise Palestine for that nation ?. How about a link showing that the Jews want to rule over all of Palestine as colonial masters. ( remember that parts of Egypt, Syria and all of Jordan are Palestine )

 

[Coyote]

I have a Mandate question and this would be the thread to ask it. The history seems so convoluted I can't find a straight answer from unbiased sources.

In various debates I've heard claimed that ALL of "Palestine" was given to the Jews by the Mandate, therefore the Palestinians can or should be sent to Jordan. Yet, when Israel declared independence - it did so with specific borders that are not the Mandate's. It then took more territory when it won a war waged against it. That territory is what is called "Occupied Territories" or, more recently by historical revisionists "disputed territories". What I'm wondering is, in terms of international law - what really belongs to Israel, and how much legal force does the mandate wield? Was the mandate later over-ruled by other agreements? RoccoR