The Personhood of the unborn needs to be settled

[BlindBoo]

They are not a person.

Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what a fetus becomes....Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what's inside an eagles egg.

No need to play stupid. The key word is becomes. Not is. And it night never become. Most pregnancies do not.

At any point along the continuum he or she is fully human.

It is always fully human, the question is at what point does it 's's rights equal or exceeds the mothers? It isnt a parasite or "lump of flesh". But neither does it have individual rights and responsibilities until birth.

That’s a slippery slope.

Putting that aside I don’t think you can say he or she is fully human and then in the same breath call it a parasite and a lump of flesh.

But to answer your question when it is a living human. That’s when. So conception.

So the fertility clinics are creating and freezing living humans then? Disposing of them is what? Murder?

 

[Likkmee]

Hey kid. What's your internal revenue iD # ?
Whaaaaaaaa Whaaaaaaaa

 

[Cecilie1200]

Laws are created by a belief system as to what is "good": or "bad".

Fundamental to the belief system embodied in the US Constitution is the conviction that individual freedom is "good", and that authoritarian government is "bad". And the core of individual freedom is the concept of self-ownership.

Yet Progressives have insisted on their collective agenda to empower the Federal government towards an authoritarian like state?

In fact, don't you support things like the Green New Deal? Don't you want the authoritarian state to "save" us from carbon emissions? Don't you want them to raise our taxes as they see fit, limit what we drive and what we live in and limit our travels as they see fit to accomplish this? Don't you want us to be forced to give up fossil fuels no matter what a financial burden this may place on the individual if it means "saving" the planet?

No. Your stereotypes fail you. I support none of those things. Progressives are promoting their own brand of fascism. Sadly, Republicans are no better.

No, Republicans are just recognizing that nature doesn't give a rat's fat furry ass for human philosophies of "fairness" and "equitability".

 

[OldLady]

Given how hard that is, expecially when you're poor, I'd really rather people aren't forced to give birth to children they don't want or can't afford. Forcing poor women to have babies is ridiculous. The rich will just go to Canada.

Yanno, if you don't want to be sullied with the responsibility of a child, simply practice abstinence. If not that, birth control. Don't wait until it is developing in your womb to say "I want control of my body!"

YOU HAD CONTROL OF YOUR BODY BEFORE YOU SPREAD THOSE LEGS OF YOURS.

Now I'm dirty. Time for breakfast and a shower.

YOU HAD CONTROL OF YOUR BODY BEFORE YOU SPREAD THOSE LEGS OF YOURS.
Whoa! There are two equally responsible people involved in that scenario, and it's about time everyone started remembering that.
No more of this slut shaming women who find themselves pregnant after engaging in sex which is considered good sport for the men and only nasty for the women.
Nuh-uh.

correct,, but only one of them can get pregnant and then go on to murder the child,,,

No woman can get pregnant on her own; it takes a male.

A woman chosing a termination of pregnancy is not committing murder. The developing embryo and fetus is a potential human in early stages and each fertilization of an egg will result in a different potential human. Like many many rolls of the dice, there is great variety in the human experiment. It is best to wait until the parents are ready to welcome and care for their children. This dice roll may not be at the right time. There will be other chances, as many as you wish to take.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Help young women who feel there is no other option to come up with a better plan. That's fine. But don't push your belief onto someone else by making abortion illegal. Doctors don't believe it is murder and the law does not believe it is murder and most of the people in this country do not believe it is murder. It is a termination of pregnancy. Make another roll of the dice when you are ready to accept Mother Nature's consequences for the act.

 

[progressive hunter]

Given how hard that is, expecially when you're poor, I'd really rather people aren't forced to give birth to children they don't want or can't afford. Forcing poor women to have babies is ridiculous. The rich will just go to Canada.

Yanno, if you don't want to be sullied with the responsibility of a child, simply practice abstinence. If not that, birth control. Don't wait until it is developing in your womb to say "I want control of my body!"

YOU HAD CONTROL OF YOUR BODY BEFORE YOU SPREAD THOSE LEGS OF YOURS.

Now I'm dirty. Time for breakfast and a shower.

YOU HAD CONTROL OF YOUR BODY BEFORE YOU SPREAD THOSE LEGS OF YOURS.
Whoa! There are two equally responsible people involved in that scenario, and it's about time everyone started remembering that.
No more of this slut shaming women who find themselves pregnant after engaging in sex which is considered good sport for the men and only nasty for the women.
Nuh-uh.

correct,, but only one of them can get pregnant and then go on to murder the child,,,

No woman can get pregnant on her own; it takes a male.

A woman chosing a termination of pregnancy is not committing murder. The developing embryo and fetus is a potential human in early stages and each fertilization of an egg will result in a different potential human. Like many many rolls of the dice, there is great variety in the human experiment. It is best to wait until the parents are ready to welcome and care for their children. This dice roll may not be at the right time. There will be other chances, as many as you wish to take.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Help young women who feel there is no other option to come up with a better plan. That's fine. But don't push your belief onto someone else by making abortion illegal. Doctors don't believe it is murder and the law does not believe it is murder and most of the people in this country do not believe it is murder. It is a termination of pregnancy. Make another roll of the dice when you are ready to accept Mother Nature's consequences for the act.

abortion is murder and this whole conversation is about other options,,,

and if you werent so dead set on killing as the first option this conversation wouldnt be a waste of time,,,

 

[ding]

Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what a fetus becomes....Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what's inside an eagles egg.

No need to play stupid. The key word is becomes. Not is. And it night never become. Most pregnancies do not.

At any point along the continuum he or she is fully human.

It is always fully human, the question is at what point does it 's's rights equal or exceeds the mothers? It isnt a parasite or "lump of flesh". But neither does it have individual rights and responsibilities until birth.

That’s a slippery slope.

Putting that aside I don’t think you can say he or she is fully human and then in the same breath call it a parasite and a lump of flesh.

But to answer your question when it is a living human. That’s when. So conception.

So the fertility clinics are creating and freezing living humans then? Disposing of them is what? Murder?

Are you sure about that? Or are they storing eggs and sperm? Those aren’t genetically distinct human beings. It’s just eggs and sperm.

 

[satrebil]

The issue of "survivability" is an ignorant argument. An infant cannot survive without the care of another. Should we be able to kill them too? How about hospital patients? If you're going to qualify someone as a human being simply by one's ability to be self sufficient you're opening up one big goddamn can of worms.

Ordinary care is obligatory for all persons, including infants. So no, you can't just kill them. Has nothing to do with being self-sufficient. Viability is the point where the organism has the all the bodily functions that sustain life (even though infants cannot provide for themselves).

So by your logic, the victim of a car accident with 2 collapsed lungs, therefore NOT having all of the bodily functions to sustain life, should just be left to die?

Now you're just being obtuse. No, you can't let this one just die either. The treatment to re-inflate the lungs would fall under ordinary care in any emergency room and they would be obliged to treat the victim.

No, I'm extending your logic to it's natural conclusion. You just don't like where it leads. If you're going to claim that a person only has the right to live on the basis of their ability to self-sustain, then this is what you get.

I find it interesting that you keep using the term "ordinary care". What could POSSIBLY be more ordinary then the human gestational process? It's literally how every single human being is produced.

Your logic fails. Treating a crash victim does not utilize another person's body or life against their will.

Your will was demonstrated when you consented to sex. News flash: Sex has the potential to make babies. This is not a state secret. An innocent should not be condemned to death simply because you lack self control and personal responsibility.

Furthermore, in many cases, WILL is completely irrelevant. I have to use my body every single day to protect and sustain my children, whether I want to or not. I have to go to work to keep a roof over their heads. I have to make them food. I have to bathe them. I have to clothe them. I have to get their injuries treated. If my toddler knowingly runs into traffic, it is my duty to retrieve him. If I don't do these things they will die and I will be charged with a crime. The argument of "well you can't FORCE me to use my body to support them" would be laughed right out of the courtroom. So spare me your false equivalencies.

 

[danielpalos]

Laws are created by a belief system as to what is "good": or "bad".

Fundamental to the belief system embodied in the US Constitution is the conviction that individual freedom is "good", and that authoritarian government is "bad". And the core of individual freedom is the concept of self-ownership.

Yet Progressives have insisted on their collective agenda to empower the Federal government towards an authoritarian like state?

In fact, don't you support things like the Green New Deal? Don't you want the authoritarian state to "save" us from carbon emissions? Don't you want them to raise our taxes as they see fit, limit what we drive and what we live in and limit our travels as they see fit to accomplish this? Don't you want us to be forced to give up fossil fuels no matter what a financial burden this may place on the individual if it means "saving" the planet?

No. Your stereotypes fail you. I support none of those things. Progressives are promoting their own brand of fascism. Sadly, Republicans are no better.

No, Republicans are just recognizing that nature doesn't give a rat's fat furry ass for human philosophies of "fairness" and "equitability".

why blame the Poor?

 

[danielpalos]

Given how hard that is, expecially when you're poor, I'd really rather people aren't forced to give birth to children they don't want or can't afford. Forcing poor women to have babies is ridiculous. The rich will just go to Canada.

Yanno, if you don't want to be sullied with the responsibility of a child, simply practice abstinence. If not that, birth control. Don't wait until it is developing in your womb to say "I want control of my body!"

YOU HAD CONTROL OF YOUR BODY BEFORE YOU SPREAD THOSE LEGS OF YOURS.

Now I'm dirty. Time for breakfast and a shower.

YOU HAD CONTROL OF YOUR BODY BEFORE YOU SPREAD THOSE LEGS OF YOURS.
Whoa! There are two equally responsible people involved in that scenario, and it's about time everyone started remembering that.
No more of this slut shaming women who find themselves pregnant after engaging in sex which is considered good sport for the men and only nasty for the women.
Nuh-uh.

correct,, but only one of them can get pregnant and then go on to murder the child,,,

No woman can get pregnant on her own; it takes a male.

A woman chosing a termination of pregnancy is not committing murder. The developing embryo and fetus is a potential human in early stages and each fertilization of an egg will result in a different potential human. Like many many rolls of the dice, there is great variety in the human experiment. It is best to wait until the parents are ready to welcome and care for their children. This dice roll may not be at the right time. There will be other chances, as many as you wish to take.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Help young women who feel there is no other option to come up with a better plan. That's fine. But don't push your belief onto someone else by making abortion illegal. Doctors don't believe it is murder and the law does not believe it is murder and most of the people in this country do not believe it is murder. It is a termination of pregnancy. Make another roll of the dice when you are ready to accept Mother Nature's consequences for the act.

a morning after pill would be better.

 

[TemplarKormac]

View attachment 261221

I do believe that if you are pro-abortion, you have nothing to say to anyone else about morality, and should be ashamed of flattering yourself like that.

silly, hyperbolic you............ nobody is pro abortion.

WHAAAAAAAT!?

Say that again, but slowly.

 

[BrokeLoser]

View attachment 261281

Conservatives:
“We want you to pay for your own children.”

Filthy Pieces Of Shits:
“What...you think my children are better off dead?”

The level of Loon from you LefTarded folks grows by the day.

Filthy Pieces of Shit: we wont help you with your kids but we sure as hell will force you to bear them.

LefTard Logic:
Filthy Pieces Of Shits = Those who expect people to pay for their own children

Not Filthy Pieces Of Shits = Those who expect others to pay for their children.

Folks, I’m not making this shit up.

inequality does that. i am not making it up either.

How about just staying in your homeland where you are an “equal”? Simple shit

 

[BlindBoo]

No need to play stupid. The key word is becomes. Not is. And it night never become. Most pregnancies do not.

At any point along the continuum he or she is fully human.

It is always fully human, the question is at what point does it 's's rights equal or exceeds the mothers? It isnt a parasite or "lump of flesh". But neither does it have individual rights and responsibilities until birth.

That’s a slippery slope.

Putting that aside I don’t think you can say he or she is fully human and then in the same breath call it a parasite and a lump of flesh.

But to answer your question when it is a living human. That’s when. So conception.

So the fertility clinics are creating and freezing living humans then? Disposing of them is what? Murder?

Are you sure about that? Or are they storing eggs and sperm? Those aren’t genetically distinct human beings. It’s just eggs and sperm.

Nope they are fertilized eggs. Conceived in a petri dish. I have a niece and nephew from a batch. They have ten left still frozen.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Can it walk, talk or chew gum? Does a fetus have any sentient awareness? Can it survivie outside the womb?

First, as the child is developing in the womb, it is reliant on the nutrients supplied to it by the mother. Her diet and physical condition determine the health of the baby (assuming a full term pregnancy)

Second, after birth, the child is again reliant on either of its parents to feed and nurture it. The amount of nurturing the child gets determines whether the child lives or dies.

Third, throughout childhood, the child is dependent on the parents for basic needs. This period is when the child should be taught how to care for themself. How well the child learns to take care of themself through their teenage years and adulthood will determine if they live or die.

The one key similarity? Dependence.

Now, to wrap that up...

Your key argument is that since the fetus depends on the mother, the fetus is not human and therefore part of the mother. Since it has not yet developed "sentience" as you so define it, it is not human.

WRONG.

If we used your argument, then the fetus, the baby, and the child would not be human. If that child is born with a cognitive disorder that robs he or she of their sentience or awareness, they cease to be human. None would be human until they shed their dependency on their parents or gained/regained the "sentient awareness." For the next decade or two (or the rest of their life for that matter), the child/adult would be a "potential human".

Your argument is flawed. Your argument is emotional.

And since I am not a homeless man in San Francisco, I am not going to rifle through more of your garbage post.

Have a good morning.

You have more patience than I do. I can't work up even this much ability to treat her posts as if they're coming from a semi-reasoning creature.

Use facts like ammo on a Vulcan cannon.

People will continue to make irrational arguments until someone obliterates them.

 

[EGR one]

My arm is an integral part of my body, but if I decide I wish to have it removed, without a medical necessity to do so, I would have a slim chance of finding a medical professional that would be willing to remove it, and society would probably put me in a loony bin for wanting to have it removed.

Yeah. That's the same basic argument. Should people have the right to do whatever they want with their body, or not? Should the government have the power to overrule our personal decisions because someone else objects?

Not quite the same, since abortion deals with the right to do whatever they want with another's body. However, I do agree that government should have no control over an individuals right to do whatever he/she wants with his/her own body.

 

[TemplarKormac]

At any point along the continuum he or she is fully human.

It is always fully human, the question is at what point does it 's's rights equal or exceeds the mothers? It isnt a parasite or "lump of flesh". But neither does it have individual rights and responsibilities until birth.

That’s a slippery slope.

Putting that aside I don’t think you can say he or she is fully human and then in the same breath call it a parasite and a lump of flesh.

But to answer your question when it is a living human. That’s when. So conception.

So the fertility clinics are creating and freezing living humans then? Disposing of them is what? Murder?

Are you sure about that? Or are they storing eggs and sperm? Those aren’t genetically distinct human beings. It’s just eggs and sperm.

Nope they are fertilized eggs. Conceived in a petri dish. I have a niece and nephew from a batch. They have ten left still frozen.

I wonder, this "they aren't human if they're not born" argument... what science is it based on? I would genuinely enjoy a scientific explanation of this argument.

Anybody? Or are we all just armchair scientists?

 

[Dragonlady]

No need to play stupid. The key word is becomes. Not is. And it night never become. Most pregnancies do not.

At any point along the continuum he or she is fully human.

It is always fully human, the question is at what point does it 's's rights equal or exceeds the mothers? It isnt a parasite or "lump of flesh". But neither does it have individual rights and responsibilities until birth.

That’s a slippery slope.

Putting that aside I don’t think you can say he or she is fully human and then in the same breath call it a parasite and a lump of flesh.

But to answer your question when it is a living human. That’s when. So conception.

So the fertility clinics are creating and freezing living humans then? Disposing of them is what? Murder?

Are you sure about that? Or are they storing eggs and sperm? Those aren’t genetically distinct human beings. It’s just eggs and sperm.

They are NOT storing eggs and sperm. They are storing frozen embryos.

 

[whitehall]

Regardless of your opinion of "personhood", Roe v Wade was bad law created by activist judges. The decision was based on a woman's Constitutional "right to privacy" but there is no right to privacy found in the Constitution.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what a fetus becomes....Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what's inside an eagles egg.

No need to play stupid. The key word is becomes. Not is. And it night never become. Most pregnancies do not.

Hey look...I'm not debating the hair splitting twisted semantics you whackos hide behind to justify your filth...That said, do you think it's odd that you defend an eagles egg the way you do?

I totally defend an eagle's right to raise its egg. Likewise I totally support a woman's right to bear her child. I oppose forced abortions on any woman.

Sure you do...haha...what a poor attempt to deflect.

That coming from someone supporting laws that punish abortion with a life sentence but rapists off with a comparative slap on the wrist...

Really? Please link and quote the post in which Broke expressed support for rapists getting off with a slap on the wrist, comparative or otherwise.

 

[ding]

At any point along the continuum he or she is fully human.

It is always fully human, the question is at what point does it 's's rights equal or exceeds the mothers? It isnt a parasite or "lump of flesh". But neither does it have individual rights and responsibilities until birth.

That’s a slippery slope.

Putting that aside I don’t think you can say he or she is fully human and then in the same breath call it a parasite and a lump of flesh.

But to answer your question when it is a living human. That’s when. So conception.

So the fertility clinics are creating and freezing living humans then? Disposing of them is what? Murder?

Are you sure about that? Or are they storing eggs and sperm? Those aren’t genetically distinct human beings. It’s just eggs and sperm.

Nope they are fertilized eggs. Conceived in a petri dish. I have a niece and nephew from a batch. They have ten left still frozen.

Then sure. No difference.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what a fetus becomes....Lets play stupid and pretend we don't know what's inside an eagles egg.

No need to play stupid. The key word is becomes. Not is. And it night never become. Most pregnancies do not.

Hey look...I'm not debating the hair splitting twisted semantics you whackos hide behind to justify your filth...That said, do you think it's odd that you defend an eagles egg the way you do?

You are obsessed with filth. Stop projecting it on others. It is not semantics. Now keep your filthy hands off of our rights.

View attachment 261281

A better question is, "Will YOU still want her dead and eviscerated in a biohazard bag the first time she's inconvenient AFTER she's born?"

Because you're out of your mind if you think WE are the ones who need to defend and justify ourselves, and that YOU are the ones who have the moral standing to demand it. When you get finished groveling and apologizing for being a soullless, evil blight on the face of humanity, MAYBE we'll be kind enough to allow you to stay in the room instead of kicking you back to your gutter.

So don't even START to flatter yourself that you're judging anyone.