The Pope takes back his Church

[Barb]

Shouldnt you be negging me for the accidental pos rep you sent me because of your inability to hit the right button?

Half done - isn't there a thread for that?

I salute you on your ability to hit the proper button, lets see if you can do it twice.

And technically, arent you only 1/3 of the way done?

2 negs to remove the pos rep
1 neg to give me the original negative points you intended to give me.

This thread isn't ABOUT you, Marty.

 

[martybegan]

Half done - isn't there a thread for that?

I salute you on your ability to hit the proper button, lets see if you can do it twice.

And technically, arent you only 1/3 of the way done?

2 negs to remove the pos rep
1 neg to give me the original negative points you intended to give me.

This thread isn't ABOUT you, Marty.

just trying to be helpful. Wouldnt want you hitting the wrong key again.

 

[Barb]

I see nothing in the Gospel of Jesus Christ that teaches us to be compel people to engage in certain commerce. Nor anything that teaches us to empower government to rob from some people and give to others. In fact, the scriptures clearly teach "Thou shalt not steal" also "Thou shalt not covet". When John the Baptist came preaching Repentence he taught the people to "be content with your wages."

Instead He preaches liberty and freedom to the captive. He gives each man a stewardship. It is between that man and God what he should do with that stewardship. He has commanded us to take care of the poor and sick and afflicted. Us. Not the government. We are to make a determination with our own stewardship and give freely.

The Lord does not compell people to do good. He allows them to choose it freely. He does not teach man to empower governments to rob people of their stewardships.

The Free market is not incompatible with the Gospel because the Gospel is liberty. God teaches men to govern themselves with His teachings.

Take it up with the Pope. HE happens to be on the CORRECT (rather than the "right") side of humanity

I have nothing to take up with him. My issue is with you who falsely pretend that taking care of the poor and the needy is somehow foreign to the Catholic Church, to any Christian Church, and to anyone on the right simply because we don't all thing we should be stealing money from others to "give".

If you want to take care of the poor, I strongly encourage you to. I try to do my part. But please stop trying to act as though we should have the government rob burden us so politicians can pretend to help the poor to get reelected.

The OP linked to the POPE's statement on the matter. Try to keep up.

 

[Vox]

It's a musing to observe what people, not being Catholics, not even theists, for that matter, would believe is happening in the structure which is not only beyond their understanding, but beyond basic knowledge.

 

[Vox]

I find it interesting that there are so many people who think that taking care of the poor and needy is something new that the Pope has started. I am not Catholic and even I am aware of the tremendous work the Catholic Church has done in providing humanitarian aid to those in need.

Pope Francis advocated for sane and inherently reasonable social policy at the NATIONAL level all over the world. I understand the concept is ideologically opposed to yours. I'm only questioning why you pretend to be confused.

No, he did not.

 

[Pennywise]

Clearly, and perhaps unintentionally, the Pope is placing himself at odds with American conservatives, for whom the above is their most sacred, deeply held tenet of rightwing dogma.

Like most idiots, you know nothing of Roman Catholics or Conservatives. The truth to salvation and good deeds is that they are every man's choice, which is totally compatible with liberty. The Pope is demanding introspection, not government confiscation of wealth.

Go to Catholic mass regularly and a good priest never stops challenging his parishioners to VOLUNTARILY give of themselves, to do for people in need. It's not about community organizing to raise taxes and spread the wealth.

“The laws of competition and the survival of the fittest” is fundamental conservative neo-Social Darwinism.

“As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized…” comports with conservative economic dogma where the specter of poverty and disadvantage serves to ‘motivate’ individuals to success. It comports with conservative dogma that humans are motivated solely by fear and greed, perfectly explaining rightist opposition to public education, social programs, and most recently the ACA.

It explains the conservative myth of ‘entitlement mentality,’ and the errant notion that Social Security, Medicare, and public assistance programs ‘perpetuate’ poverty and act as a ‘disincentive’ to human success.

The Pope correctly points out that conservative dogma is simply wrong, and we as Americans are better than what conservatives advocate.

You are wrong again, and an inept debater.

You know nothing of what you speak, just leftist talking points. I grew up Catholic so don't tell me what the Pope is talking about. All I ever heard from Sunday mass was to think beyond my own selfish nature and extend myself to others. It's a Catholic thing. Most people prefer to go to church and hear about how much Jesus loves them, then they can go home feeling like they are wonderful simply for being alive. I'm sure that fits you to a T.

 

[Barb]

It's a musing to observe what people, not being Catholics, not even theists, for that matter, would believe is happening in the structure which is not only beyond their understanding, but beyond basic knowledge.

My sainted grandma was Catholic - I was raised Lutheran.

A + musing is all one word.

"Beyond basic knowledge" is kind of the whole fucking POINT to my understanding of the universe.

But hey, you have a very nice day, a Happy Thanksgiving, and hopefully not too abrupt an awakening.

You know - just enough to pull your head out.

 

[Barb]

I find it interesting that there are so many people who think that taking care of the poor and needy is something new that the Pope has started. I am not Catholic and even I am aware of the tremendous work the Catholic Church has done in providing humanitarian aid to those in need.

Pope Francis advocated for sane and inherently reasonable social policy at the NATIONAL level all over the world. I understand the concept is ideologically opposed to yours. I'm only questioning why you pretend to be confused.

No, he did not.

Yes, he did too.

 

[JakeStarkey]

"because the Gospel is liberty" does not mean you are exempt from the two Great Commandments.

"because the Gospel is liberty" does not mean the secular state cannot step in because those who should know better refuse to do right.

Remember this! You no longer have the votes, son.

No one has claimed that anyone is exempt from the two great commandments.

The scriptures do not claim that we should neglect out power to do good and instead empower the government to rob people. The Gospel is to be lived without compulsion. We are to follow it because we choose to. Because it is our privilege to serve God and our fellow man. Not because we are forced to. "Choose this day whom you will serve."

The scriptures DO say clearly "THOU SHALT NOT STEAL". They also say "Thou shalt not covet..."

The poor and needy are not helped because of government action. Quite the opposite. the government keeps them poor and needy. The people who actually get the money from the government are those who contribute to the politicians campaign. Take the stimulus for example. That was supposed to help those in need. Instead, it was used to pay back campaign contributers with tax money.

Stop expecting someone else to take care of the poor. Stop expecting someone else to take care of you. God has given you the means to help both them and yourself already.

There is no sin in working hard just because it results in you getting money. Just be honest in your work. Don't cheat others. And don't falsely accuse your brethren of cheating you when you make bad choices and have no evidence of their fraud.

You are ALL over the map - that garbled collection of right wing talking points made absolutely no sense regarding what it responded to - and that is not a solid indication that you have the first clue what you're writing about.

He is caught in that deep and dark hole most in which Mormon libertarians reside, scrabbling unsuccessfully up its side.

 

[Derideo_Te]

So you can't connect how a 5-10% profit margin somehow results in the bankrupting of american families. That basically shows your entire question to CF is based on something you can't show or prove, thus showing it to be a pure appeal to emotion, and an attempted "gotcha" question.

You have not answered MY question, and you are not walking away from this with a win by default, no matter how much you want one now that you can't back up what you posted.

But I should expect this from you, same as the other progressive statists on the board, all bluster, no backing.

The onus remains on you to cite the teachings of Christ where he says to his disciples that a "5-10% profit margin" on healthcare is acceptable to God.

From the Gospel According to Martybegan

13-13. Verily did Jesus sayeth unto his disciples that a 5-10% profit margin when thy healeth the sick and suffering is blessed in the eyes of the Lord thy Father.

Nope, the onus is on you to how a 5-10% profit margin is the cause of american families bbeing forced into bankruptcy due to medical issues. its the crux of your question to CF, and yet you are completely unable and unwilling to answer it.

And all your snark and dodging can't hide the fact that you got called on something, can't answer it, and are basically thrashing around hoping I go away, and leave you alone.

not happening there slick.

Once again you have to squirm. My statement was "making a profit". You twisted that to be a "5-10% profit margin" so the onus remains on the one who has to resort to name calling because he cannot substantiate his own allegation.

 

[Derideo_Te]

So you can't connect how a 5-10% profit margin somehow results in the bankrupting of american families. That basically shows your entire question to CF is based on something you can't show or prove, thus showing it to be a pure appeal to emotion, and an attempted "gotcha" question.

You have not answered MY question, and you are not walking away from this with a win by default, no matter how much you want one now that you can't back up what you posted.

But I should expect this from you, same as the other progressive statists on the board, all bluster, no backing.

The onus remains on you to cite the teachings of Christ where he says to his disciples that a "5-10% profit margin" on healthcare is acceptable to God.

From the Gospel According to Martybegan

13-13. Verily did Jesus sayeth unto his disciples that a 5-10% profit margin when thy healeth the sick and suffering is blessed in the eyes of the Lord thy Father.

Are you seriously suggesting that Drs should not be able to use their skills to provide for themselves and take care of their families?

Since I never posted anything of that nature the onus is on you to substantiate that allegation.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Do you seriously believe that Jesus would condone making a profit off of a sick child that bankrupts a family?

Only if they kill the kids puppy first

Your conceding of the falsity of your allegation is duly noted.

I was mocking the Drama Llama approach. Poor people and poor nations do an awful job of fighting poverty. It's like fighting fire with matchsticks.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Only if they kill the kids puppy first

Your conceding of the falsity of your allegation is duly noted.

I was mocking the Drama Llama approach. Poor people and poor nations do an awful job of fighting poverty. It's like fighting fire with matchsticks.

In which case you still haven't substantiated your erroneous allegation.

 

[martybegan]

The onus remains on you to cite the teachings of Christ where he says to his disciples that a "5-10% profit margin" on healthcare is acceptable to God.

Nope, the onus is on you to how a 5-10% profit margin is the cause of american families bbeing forced into bankruptcy due to medical issues. its the crux of your question to CF, and yet you are completely unable and unwilling to answer it.

And all your snark and dodging can't hide the fact that you got called on something, can't answer it, and are basically thrashing around hoping I go away, and leave you alone.

not happening there slick.

Once again you have to squirm. My statement was "making a profit". You twisted that to be a "5-10% profit margin" so the onus remains on the one who has to resort to name calling because he cannot substantiate his own allegation.

A 5-10% profit margin is average for businesses, I actually clarified your statement a bit. The issue is still how this causes American families into bankruptcy due to medical bills, a statement made by YOU, and still not backed up.

CF made the statement you responded to, I asked for clarification on your question, and pages later you are still not answering me.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Nope, the onus is on you to how a 5-10% profit margin is the cause of american families bbeing forced into bankruptcy due to medical issues. its the crux of your question to CF, and yet you are completely unable and unwilling to answer it.

And all your snark and dodging can't hide the fact that you got called on something, can't answer it, and are basically thrashing around hoping I go away, and leave you alone.

not happening there slick.

Once again you have to squirm. My statement was "making a profit". You twisted that to be a "5-10% profit margin" so the onus remains on the one who has to resort to name calling because he cannot substantiate his own allegation.

A 5-10% profit margin is average for businesses, I actually clarified your statement a bit. The issue is still how this causes American families into bankruptcy due to medical bills, a statement made by YOU, and still not backed up.

CF made the statement you responded to, I asked for clarification on your question, and pages later you are still not answering me.

So you aren't even capable of substantiating your own figures? I will take that as a partial concession on your position. At least you are headed in the right direction now.

 

[Vox]

Pope Francis advocated for sane and inherently reasonable social policy at the NATIONAL level all over the world. I understand the concept is ideologically opposed to yours. I'm only questioning why you pretend to be confused.

No, he did not.

Yes, he did too.

no he did not.

having a grandmother a catholic does not make you "knowledgeable" . it just leaves you with no other option but to be a typo police

your whole "knowledge"is salon or huffpost opinions

 

[Derideo_Te]

No, he did not.

Yes, he did too.

no he did not.

having a grandmother a catholic does not make you "knowledgeable" . it just leaves you with no other option but to be a typo police

your whole "knowledge"is salon or huffpost opinions

Please ask an adult in your household to explain to you what the Pope actually said in the OP, Vox!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The Homeless Lobby / Poverty PAC | Depravity wraps itself in platitudinous twaddle.

If he cared half as much as you think he does he would sell off all the gold that is owned by the Catholic church and raise enough money to feed half the planet.

I don't think he, personally, "owns" what you think he does. What he does have is a platform, and with that he is one of the most influential men in the world. I am grateful that, at long, long last, someone in such an influential position is using that power to change attitudes, and maybe even hearts.

I don't think I said he owns anything, I said that, if he cared, he could sell off the gold and feed more people that he already does.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Do you seriously believe that Jesus would condone making a profit off of a sick child that bankrupts a family?

So it is the 5-10% profit margin that is the cause of the bankruptcy?

Should doctors accept a salary that bankrupts the family, should the nurses? the hospital staff?

Deflection from answering the question asked duly noted.

You're right.

Let's skip over the fact that your opinion here is based entirely in the dogmatic value that a human life's worth cannot be expressed in economic value. . . let's just pretend that you're correct.

People should not be going into the medical profession to profit. They should be going into the medical profession because people need to be helped. Let's assume that this isn't an opinion and that, somehow, this moral can be proven as "correct".

So let's stop paying doctors large salaries. Fuck that they had to pay their way through school and bust their ass for seven years, if that's the route they wanted to go they should've been willing to do it for free.

Let's nationalize all medicine from here on out, make sure those evil fuckers that blast millions of dollars in R&D and those greedy ass scientists who come up with the drugs in the first place aren't doing so to take our money. People that want to come up with new medicines should be doing so for the good of mankind, not for their pocket books. Let's just take their stuff. You know, as a society. . . for the children and all that.

And those dickheads selling insurance? We should simply do away with them, if you catch my drift. They shouldn't be paying peoples' medical bills only because those people paid into the insurance scheme, and they damn well shouldn't be doing it for a profit. They should pay for everyone's medical treatment because fuck 'em, they got the money and they need to help people.

So yeah, let's go all out and enforce your morality on the entire medical industry. Then, when we've removed all personal incentive, watch how quickly people smart enough to be surgeons divert into other more profitable majors.

Watch how quickly world class chemists start peddling their wares in other fields in stead of researching and inventing new medicines.

Watch how quickly people with the capital to play the insurance game start investing in other shit in stead, and, while you're at it, make sure your medical savings account is brimming, dummy.

Sorry, but this "culture of greed" has presided over the fastest technological growth spurt the world's ever seen. You can attribute a lot of it to abundant energy resources, but if you think that morally pressuring people to help each other is going to create the kind of innovation that a free market promotes, you're dreaming.

 

[Barb]

Yes, he did too.

no he did not.

having a grandmother a catholic does not make you "knowledgeable" . it just leaves you with no other option but to be a typo police

your whole "knowledge"is salon or huffpost opinions

Please ask an adult in your household to explain to you what the Pope actually said in the OP, Vox!

Maybe we can help him. Here is the link to the Pope's own writing on the subject:

Evangelii Gaudium, Apostolic Exhortation of Pope Francis, 2013

53. Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills. How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.

Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a “disposable” culture which is now spreading. It is no longer simply about exploitation and oppression, but something new. Exclusion ultimately has to do with what it means to be a part of the society in which we live; those excluded are no longer society’s underside or its fringes or its disenfranchised – they are no longer even a part of it. The excluded are not the “exploited” but the outcast, the “leftovers”.

54. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase; and in the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.

emphasis mine

Read the whole thing - Pope Francis writes clearly and quite well.