The Question No PROG Will Dare Answer

[BlindBoo]

My theory that leftists neither understand, care about, or think the debt affects them is being show clearly here. A simple number.....is that so hard to name? C'mon moonbats.....what is the LIMIT to the madness?

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I actually don't think some of the posters in this thread understand the Debt as distinguished from the yearly Deficit. Or perhaps they hope the other readers won't.

Under Reagan, who sure enough got dug up and blamed in this very thread, the US DEBT was a trillion dollars.

Now its 17 trillion dollars.

Obama runs up a trillion dollar deficit EACH year for awhile...then the Sequester and a recalcitrant House of Representatives force him to quit pissing away money as fast as he wants, so the yearly DEFICIT goes down by maybe 15%....and his Bolsheviks on this board take credit. In the meantime the DEBT of the USA keeps getting more and more out of control....Obama called it Unpatriotic when it was at about 7 trillion.

In the meantime, the obvious dodge of the clear question posed in the OP continues. Its getting embarrassing. Run Liberals run.

During RayGuns terms the Debt increased more than any modern day president.

http://www.skymachines.com/US-National-Debt-Per-Capita-Percent-of-GDP-and-by-Presidental-Term.htm

 

[BullKurtz]

The obvious answer for leftards is, "there is no debt ceiling, they want to tax and spend with utterly no limitations." If that causes the nation into default, they don't give a fuck, just as long as their welfare checks are coming in and their obama phones are still on.

I don't think they understand what's happening....or want to...this is scary shit when you first look at it so they refuse to look at it.....or concede they've been lied to for so long. When the unions figured out what Hussein was up to, they went haywire....he fixed it for them....or they think he did until their members see a 29 hour work week in January. The progs are mostly government hacks and teachers with tenure so they can mouth off with immunity about any cuts. Justice Roberts had it in his grasp to end this Barry-Care fiasco but chickened out.....he won't be forgotten for it.

 

[Camp]

You do know that the National Debt Clock reflects debt built up by all presidents don't you?
I'm not arguing that "O" isn't in a class all by himself, but he isn't the only president that is responsible for the almost $17 trillion dollars of the total debt. Some of the debt attributed to "O" comes from programs by other presidents, such as the annual debt created by Medicare Part D.
I'm a non-partisan who believes in the truth, no partisan hackery from this poster. Can you say that?

JESUS CHRIST.....HOW ABOUT A FUCKING NUMBER?!?!?!

You are demanding a number that is impossible to provide. When the shit hits the fan the nation will have to put aside bs politics and ideology and become pragmatist. Whenever the decision is made that survival efforts must dictate resolving the problem, drastic measures will be taken. How drastic will depend on how close to the edge we get. We could begin to resolve the problem today it not for the bs politics, ideological concerns and refusal to treat the issue in a pragmatic way. Pretty simple once the process begins. How much do we owe, how much do we need to operate and how do we increase our revenue. Cut programs and cut tax loopholes. Raise taxes and cut corportate subsidies. Keep cutting and raising taxes until the result is reached. The sooner we start the easier it will be. The later we start the harder it will be.
If you insist on a number, my response is zero. We should have zero debt. Pay as we go. Run short and we should be cutting cost and increasing revenue as we go. Credit should be used for temporary needs(war/natural desaster) and paid back right away.

 

[BullKurtz]

I'm signing off for the day. Any of you on the left want to stay on topic instead of meandering around the subject should feel free to suggest how to end this death-spiral of debt. It should be realistic and even-handed or why bother? We're all in the same boat now....best fix the hole before bothering to bail like we been doing.

 

[bendog]

No one actually "knows" the answer, even economists. You seem to assert you know the figure, but you cannot.

The tipping point is $20T....what's YOUR NUMBER?

The number upon which that creditor nations will no longer have faith that we can service the dept. I don't know what that is, and neither does anyone else. It is probably somewhere around 150% of gnp; however, that also depends upon how fast the econ is growing.

Personally, I'm optimistic for my kid. I think that, between the inevitable rise in the yuan, and what I think will be an inevitable fall in the value of the dollar, and increasing transportation and commodity costs, there will be a real chance to return a manftring economy to employ our less intellectually able workers. 1960 ... probably not. But, still, we maftr or assemble most of our food stuffs, cars, planes ..... I think clothing and textiles may come back, especially if we make it possible for people to get by on smaller pay checks ... by making healthcare, education and housing easily affordable through govt programs.

Yeah, I went there. But neoliberalism, or Thatcherism, is premised upon using govt to allow private investors to get in and out of biz markets. If some form of Obamacare is the cost, I can pay it, ideologically. Reluctantly.

So, the answer to your question is literally ANY amout of debt is sustainable so long as the economy GROWS FAST ENOUGH so that owners of debt think we can pay the interest.

Moreover, there's a SURPLUS already built into society that will come about when all we Boomers are dead and the millenials are working. Let's pray to God they don't elect another Bush who will squander the chance to bridge their generational debt gap.

 

[pinqy]

There isn't a trillion dollar deficit anymore you know. I think it's around 825 billion currently and expected to go down further next year saying sequester stays intact, which it looks like it will.

The deficit is shrinking a LOT faster then any point since 1948. In fact oddly the ONLY time the deficit actually goes down is UNDER A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT!!! Reagan? Bush Sr? Bush Jr? All grew the deficit every year they were in office.

But of course we don't hear about this from Right wingers.

SHRINKING eh? Does the debt look like it's shrinking too?

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

The thing about the "debt clock" that amazes me as much as anything?

"Official Unemployed"
11,231,052

"Actual Unemployed"
21,193,653

If that doesn't tell you how OUR government lies to us on a daily basis, then nothing will.

The "Actual Unemployment" is TWICE as high as they tell us. And they fools get away with it. Day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year.

So, to get your "actual" unemployment you're classifying as unemployed 2.3 million people who aren't trying to get a job and 7.9 million people who are working. Please explain how someone who is working is actually unemployed.

 

[RandallFlagg]

SHRINKING eh? Does the debt look like it's shrinking too?

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

The thing about the "debt clock" that amazes me as much as anything?

"Official Unemployed"
11,231,052

"Actual Unemployed"
21,193,653

If that doesn't tell you how OUR government lies to us on a daily basis, then nothing will.

The "Actual Unemployment" is TWICE as high as they tell us. And they fools get away with it. Day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year.

So, to get your "actual" unemployment you're classifying as unemployed 2.3 million people who aren't trying to get a job and 7.9 million people who are working. Please explain how someone who is working is actually unemployed.

What the hell are you talking about? I was reading the numbers from the debt clock. Look at it for yourself (if you are capable of comprehending). I didn't create those numbers out of thin air - they are right there for anyone to see.

geez.

 

[Hoffstra]

As long as interest on the debt doesn't go above 7% of the Federal Budget, we are ok.

 

[Uncensored2008]

As long as interest on the debt doesn't go above 7% of the Federal Budget, we are ok.

A Nazi, a leftist, and stupid...

You're a right trifecta...

 

[Hoffstra]

A Nazi, a leftist, and stupid...

You're a right trifecta...

Typical Tea Bagger response.

do you have anything but personal attacks?

maybe you'd like to comment on my threshold for interest on the debt?

 

[Rshermr]

A Nazi, a leftist, and stupid...

You're a right trifecta...

Typical Tea Bagger response.

do you have anything but personal attacks?

maybe you'd like to comment on my threshold for interest on the debt?

He is worried about the time when we tripled the national debt, and the economy blew up. Or the time when it was much higher, as a percent of gdp (which is the real measure of debt as any economist would tell him) and the economy blew up.
Actually, it did not blow up. But based on that, the poor guy thinks it will this time. Because we will have to pay it back, in his opinion. Because he has been told that is true. But he has NO idea whom we would have to pay back. Because the numbers are immaterial. It really does not matter.
Except that history would show that raising the national debt by targeted spending can help greatly to turn the economy around.
But then, if he wants to pay back the national debt, I will take all forms of payment.

 

[pinqy]

The thing about the "debt clock" that amazes me as much as anything?

"Official Unemployed"
11,231,052

"Actual Unemployed"
21,193,653

If that doesn't tell you how OUR government lies to us on a daily basis, then nothing will.

The "Actual Unemployment" is TWICE as high as they tell us. And they fools get away with it. Day after day, week after week, month after month and year after year.

So, to get your "actual" unemployment you're classifying as unemployed 2.3 million people who aren't trying to get a job and 7.9 million people who are working. Please explain how someone who is working is actually unemployed.

What the hell are you talking about? I was reading the numbers from the debt clock. Look at it for yourself (if you are capable of comprehending). I didn't create those numbers out of thin air - they are right there for anyone to see.

geez.

If you don't know where the number comes from or what it means, how is that any different from just making it up?

But what the idiot who runs the debt clock site claims is "actual unemployment" is the numerator of the U6 measure of underutilization (Table A-15. Alternative measures of labor underutilization) you can see from my link that the U6s unemployed plus marginally attached plus part time for economic reasons as a percent of the labor force plus marginally attached. Marginally attached are found at Table A-16. Persons not in the labor force and multiple jobholders by sex, not seasonally adjusted and part time for economic reasons at Table A-8. Employed persons by class of worker and part-time status
Unemployed plus marginally attached plus part time for economic reasons is11,316,000 +2,342,000 +7,911 = 21,569,000
So what you are calling "actual" unemployment, (and yes I mean you because you asserted it as fact) includes the marginally attached (who aren't looking for work) and part time for economic reasons, who are working.

And clicking on the "actual unemployment" shows the definition debt clock is using, which Is what I said.

 

[BullKurtz]

He is worried about the time when we tripled the national debt, and the economy blew up. Or the time when it was much higher, as a percent of gdp (which is the real measure of debt as any economist would tell him) and the economy blew up.
Actually, it did not blow up. But based on that, the poor guy thinks it will this time. Because we will have to pay it back, in his opinion. Because he has been told that is true. But he has NO idea whom we would have to pay back. Because the numbers are immaterial. It really does not matter.
Except that history would show that raising the national debt by targeted spending can help greatly to turn the economy around.
But then, if he wants to pay back the national debt, I will take all forms of payment.

WTF? Are you pretending to be Greenspan talking in riddles that are nothing more than gibberish? Every economist on the planet agrees with "this poor guy" that our grotesque borrowing has caught up with us. I have "no idea who to pay back"? Really? How about everybody who presents a T-Bill? Hello? "The numbers are immaterial"? You're high as a kite, right? This one amazes me...."targeted spending can GREATLY turn an economy around".....So we must be in much better shape with Barry Hussein blowing $6T on "green energy" in the last 5 years, right? How's Solyndra and the others doing...employing thousands of Americans, right? Get your ass outta this thread.....bullshit walks you fraud.

 

[Votto]

At least so far....maybe today we'll get a breakthrough.

HOW MUCH DEBT are you willing to allow the government shysters to put us in? What's the number when even the maoists say enough is enough? We're at $17T now....many economists think $20T is the tipping point. Obama has raised the debt-ceiling 7 times after screaming like a woman when Dubya did it. He's added $6T to the debt and continues to run $1T yearly deficits. After $20T, another financial meltdown of any kind, could tip us over into default. Surely you leftists don't believe Wall Street has stopped dealing in mortgage-based derivatives. Surely you don't believe criminal enterprises like Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley have stopped rigging the futures markets. So how much is enough....how close to the edge of diaster are you willing to tread?

They are willing to let debt increase until the system collapses and they have to "transform" society into a post-free market era.

You know, kinda like Obamacare. Create a program that is doomed to fail. Then when it destroys society offer them a single payer program. By that time they will be begging for it.

 

[BullKurtz]

As long as interest on the debt doesn't go above 7% of the Federal Budget, we are ok.

Are we? The numbers don't indicate we are "okay"...in fact they say with another 2008 style derivatives fiasco or a major terror attack or even another dot.com raid on venture-capital, we can quickly dissolve into financial chaos. All it takes is a panic attack on the part of our major banks....and we found out what steady,honest, and trustworthy fellas they are 5 years ago.

Over the next ten years, higher yields cause interest payments to swallow a greater share of the federal budget. Interest payments are expected to balloon from $223 billion this year to $823 billion in 2023, when the CBO estimates that 10-year notes will have a 5.2 percent interest rate.

National Debt Could Skyrocket As Interest Rates Rise | The Fiscal Times

Now imagine a 10% interest rate on T-Bills which is inevitable as the world sees we have no desire to stop borrowing....at 10% the interest alone is over $1.6T a year.....eating the entire budget even with massive tax increases.

 

[Rshermr]

He is worried about the time when we tripled the national debt, and the economy blew up. Or the time when it was much higher, as a percent of gdp (which is the real measure of debt as any economist would tell him) and the economy blew up.
Actually, it did not blow up. But based on that, the poor guy thinks it will this time. Because we will have to pay it back, in his opinion. Because he has been told that is true. But he has NO idea whom we would have to pay back. Because the numbers are immaterial. It really does not matter.
Except that history would show that raising the national debt by targeted spending can help greatly to turn the economy around.
But then, if he wants to pay back the national debt, I will take all forms of payment.

WTF? Are you pretending to be Greenspan talking in riddles that are nothing more than gibberish? Every economist on the planet agrees with "this poor guy" that our grotesque borrowing has caught up with us. I have "no idea who to pay back"? Really? How about everybody who presents a T-Bill? Hello? "The numbers are immaterial"? You're high as a kite, right? This one amazes me...."targeted spending can GREATLY turn an economy around".....So we must be in much better shape with Barry Hussein blowing $6T on "green energy" in the last 5 years, right? How's Solyndra and the others doing...employing thousands of Americans, right? Get your ass outta this thread.....bullshit walks you fraud.

You are an economic wasteland, me boy. So, we must have crashed when we had a considerably larger debt as a percent of gdp. Can you name that time, me poor ignorant con??? Have you an economist who you can provide a link to in a non partisan source that suggests that the debt is a big problem today?
Relative to what happens if someone cashes in a tbil, as they of course will, the same thing will happen as always, me boy.

Did it ever occur to you that the gov keeps selling bonds in perpetuity?? If they want to expand the economy, they can buy back bonds they have previously issued. If they want to contract the economy, they can sell bonds and take cash out of the economy. Is this too complex for you???

The problem with our economy is unemployment. It is NOT the deficit. Or, perhaps you would like to explain why economists, including those of the cbo, are wrong since they believe that gov spending has helped the economy. And more spending would help the economy again.

Now, there is the whole fraud statement, dipshit. Here is the problem. The gov has not spent $1T on green energy, me boy. So, why do you need to lie about such things??? Very tacky, and totally lacking in integrity.

Just trying to help, me boy. That you are ignorant of what deficits are, and how much stimulus spending there has been, is your problem. Not mine.

 

[Rshermr]

As long as interest on the debt doesn't go above 7% of the Federal Budget, we are ok.

Are we? The numbers don't indicate we are "okay"...in fact they say with another 2008 style derivatives fiasco or a major terror attack or even another dot.com raid on venture-capital, we can quickly dissolve into financial chaos. All it takes is a panic attack on the part of our major banks....and we found out what steady,honest, and trustworthy fellas they are 5 years ago.

Over the next ten years, higher yields cause interest payments to swallow a greater share of the federal budget. Interest payments are expected to balloon from $223 billion this year to $823 billion in 2023, when the CBO estimates that 10-year notes will have a 5.2 percent interest rate.

National Debt Could Skyrocket As Interest Rates Rise | The Fiscal Times

Now imagine a 10% interest rate on T-Bills which is inevitable as the world sees we have no desire to stop borrowing....at 10% the interest alone is over $1.6T a year.....eating the entire budget even with massive tax increases.

That is the kind of crap you get when you use The Fiscal Times as a source. Try useing an actual non partisan source, me boy. You may get results that are factual, instead of ideological.
The CBO says the following:

The economy’s gradual recovery from the 2007–2009 recession, the waning budgetary effects of policies enacted in response to the weak economy, and other changes to tax and spending policies have caused the deficit to shrink this year to its smallest size since 2008: roughly 4 percent of GDP, compared with a peak of almost 10 percent in 2009. If current laws governing taxes and spending were generally unchanged—an assumption that underlies CBO’s 10-year baseline budget projections—the deficit would continue to drop over the next few years, falling to 2 percent of GDP by 2015. As a result, by 2018, federal debt held by the public would decline to 68 percent of GDP.
CBO | The 2013 Long-Term Budget Outlook

Projections are for slight increases in the ratio of public debt to GDP by 2023. Nothing like the bs that you are posting from the FT. But what the hell, if you want to believe what you want to believe, why bother with rational sources for your information.

 

[Camp]

He is worried about the time when we tripled the national debt, and the economy blew up. Or the time when it was much higher, as a percent of gdp (which is the real measure of debt as any economist would tell him) and the economy blew up.
Actually, it did not blow up. But based on that, the poor guy thinks it will this time. Because we will have to pay it back, in his opinion. Because he has been told that is true. But he has NO idea whom we would have to pay back. Because the numbers are immaterial. It really does not matter.
Except that history would show that raising the national debt by targeted spending can help greatly to turn the economy around.
But then, if he wants to pay back the national debt, I will take all forms of payment.

WTF? Are you pretending to be Greenspan talking in riddles that are nothing more than gibberish? Every economist on the planet agrees with "this poor guy" that our grotesque borrowing has caught up with us. I have "no idea who to pay back"? Really? How about everybody who presents a T-Bill? Hello? "The numbers are immaterial"? You're high as a kite, right? This one amazes me...."targeted spending can GREATLY turn an economy around".....So we must be in much better shape with Barry Hussein blowing $6T on "green energy" in the last 5 years, right? How's Solyndra and the others doing...employing thousands of Americans, right? Get your ass outta this thread.....bullshit walks you fraud.

Very educational thread. You asked a question and it has been answered by a variety of people in a variety of ways dispite your attempt to flame it towards your actual agenda. You kind of give that away with the "6T green energy" lie and the Barry Hussein thing really wraps up what that agenda is. Thats OK. People tolerate people like you because however much of a bullcrapper you may be, you guys do sometimes lead to interesting discussions and no doubt, some folks get some sense of satisfaction from exposing the kind of crap you bullcrappers put out.

 

[Pete7469]

Oh great. Another ignernt rw who doesn't know what "raising the debt ceiling" really means.

Nor does he seem to know why it needs to be raised.

Keep walkin troll.....this isn't one of your kind's thread....you either put up or shut the fuck up here.

You'll find a few of those mouth breathing retards here pard, never expect an honest, intelligent conversation with them. For one they're too fucking stupid, and second they're not interested.

Fellow veteran here, US Air Force, 10/1979 - 9/1987, E-7, service connected disabled vet.

I actually have most of the bed wetters on ignore. Their posts are just too stupid to read. If I see their idiocy in someone else's quotes I might take the time to ridicule them but that's it. There's a Black Hole of Liberal Ignorance that no facts, logic or reason can penetrate. It's an incredible density that scientists should be studying instead of selling bullshit global warming myths.

OIF Vet here 2005, proudly still serving.

 

[Pete7469]

Incrementally increase the retirement age for SS benefits, decrease military spending. Simplify the tax codes (lower rates and remove all deductions). Tax all capital gains as ordinary income.

Even if we had the time to do that (we don't), all you'd cut is the military? And tax profits twice though capital gains? And make old people work longer? Seriously?

We have plenty of time. The US Treasury notes are the most secure investment in the world. Ordinary capital gains are already taxed at the same income bracket. Only long term capital gains receive a break and cap out 15% for no reason other than greed. There is no double tax on profit. Yes people are living much longer and are healthier than they were when SS was started.

Besides you wanted a number didn't you?

There was a time when the currency of Rome was traded everywhere in the civilized world.

You think the fed notes will be worth the paper they're printed on when our 400 BILLION dollar interest payment goes up? The interest rate is nearly ZERO, what happens if it hits %5?

The Huns will be burning down DC.