The Reason for Poverty Among Blacks is Not Racism

[IM2]

There's 6 whites to every 1 black.

Doesn't matter. You have 5 times everything needed to have zero crime but you commit the most.

 

[IM2]

Property values don't go down because of perception, they go down when things change for the negative. White Flight has been a term used in the past couple of generations. Are you telling me that blacks cannot maintain property value without whites? And if so, why not?

If you go to the horse races and keep laying money on the horse Silver Bells, but Silver Bells always loses the race, how long before you stop laying a bet on that horse? When people realize blacks are moving in, they naturally expect their neighborhood or city to replicate what happens to just about every other city when blacks move in. In fear of losing a hell of a lot of money or for the safety of their family, they get the hell away from the blacks.

If blacks would ever change this trend, that will eliminate white flight. But don't blame whites for the actions of blacks. It's disingenuous. As I stated before, whites can live with just about any other group of people except blacks, and it's not because of their pigmentation either.

Ray you keep repeating the same ignorant argument. The majority of the lawmakers in this country are white and public policy made by whites is the main problem. The claim of property values decreasing because of blacks is racist fake news. There are affluent black neighborhoods in Cleveland son and poor white ones. I live in Kansas and if I drive down any highway in this state, I see dead all white rural towns that look worse that the so called black slums you have created in your mind. And nobody is rushing to live in them. Property values are low and declining. It ain't because blacks are moving in. Boy, you're as ignorant as it gets.

 

[MarathonMike]

You apparently do not understand the definition of confusion since your comment lent nothing to clarify what you believe I'm confused about.

The bottom line is that you, IM2, Paul and the rest spend your day pointing your finger at everyone screaming RACIST!! That is a complete waste of time and accomplishes exactly nothing. Individuals who are Racist have no bearing on anyone's life but their own.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I don’t know where to start with all your bullshit.

1) Saying that racism is not to blame for the minority of blacks being in poverty - but their own choices, just as it is with whites - is not denigrating them. It’s pointing out that racism isn’t the cause.

2) Odd how you accuse me of feeling superior, and then you lash out - since you feel you can judge people - that my background is lacking. YOUR background is lacking. People raised right don‘t go around calling people evil, and when that is pointed out to them, double down and insist…..yes, you ARE evil. What kind of decent person with a proper upbringing does that?

3) And we are not allowed to describe any black person as angry? You are certainly angry, lashing out at people with nasty accusations simply because they fail to submit to your beliefs?

Finally, for the sixth (6th!) time: if racism is why 25% of blacks are in poverty, then why are 75% of blacks NOT in poverty?

Wow. More sanctimony from the woman who goes around accusing others of feeling superior.

YOU are telling Ray why he believes what he believes? Do you even hear the air of superiority that you reveal with that comment?

Lisa, if you are unable to read one or more statements and then draw a correct conclusion, while I am, then perhaps my critical thinking skills ARE superior to yours. However being more proficient in a particular area doesn't make me a better person than you, but it does make me better equipped to deal with bullshit arguments.

Let's say the following is a class assignment:

Ray from Cleveland BELIEVES that George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin.

The State of Florida has ruled that George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin.

Newsvine_Mariyam states that Ray from Cleveland BELIEVES George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin BECAUSE the State of Florida ruled that Zimmerman acted lawfully.

Newvine_Mariyam states further than Ray's beliefs are reinforced by other previous court cases in which black men have been killed by whites absent an imminent threat of grievous bodily injury or death, such as when the person shot is shot in the back while attempting to flee, as one example.

Did they not teach you deductive reasoning in class or did you not attend college? I'm not telling Ray what he believes, he told ME what he believes and I was pointing out that he's confident in his beliefs because they are back by rulings in our justice system which traditionally have been unfavorable to black people, black men especially.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Lisa, if you are unable to read one or more statements and then draw a correct conclusion, while I am, then perhaps my critical thinking skills ARE superior to yours. However being more proficient in a particular area doesn't make me a better person than you, but it does make me better equipped to deal with bullshit arguments.

Let's say the following is a class assignment:

Ray from Cleveland BELIEVES that George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin.

The State of Florida has ruled that George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin.

Newsvine_Mariyam states that Ray from Cleveland BELIEVES George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin BECAUSE the State of Florida ruled that Zimmerman acted lawfully.

Newvine_Mariyam states further than Ray's beliefs are reinforced by other previous court cases in which black men have been killed by whites absent an imminent threat of grievous bodily injury or death, such as when the person shot is shot in the back while attempting to flee, as one example.

Did they not teach you deductive reasoning in class or did you not attend college? I'm not telling Ray what he believes, he told ME what he believes and I was pointing out that he's confident in his beliefs because they are back by rulings in our justice system which traditionally have been unfavorable to black people, black men especially.

No you are deciding what Ray is thinking with no evidence at all. An objective person looking at the evidence and the testimony of the sole independant witness could only conclude self-defense. You are allowing your personal prejudices to affect your deductive reasoning. Previous court decisions had nothing to do with either the verdict, or Martin's actions that night. Martin had broken contact with Zimmerman. An average person would have gone to a safe place (in this case the father's home) and called 911 if he or she was being followed and in fear of harm. No reasonable person would hide and ambush a person they were afraid of when reasonable alternatives were available. The jury was never exposed to Martin's criminal history and the media deliberately played down his criminality and portrayed Martin as a innocent child murdered by an aggressive, racist adult.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Exactly. But Vine is so angry (oops….not allowed to described a black person as angry, she tells me) at whites who point out that blacks can and do rise from poverty due to their own choices that she can’t decipher the difference between us talking about our poor family backgrounds and her talking about her family background.

And my family background runs more parallel to what we are talking about in this thread: impoverished, persecuted grandparents who suffered horrible the bigotry against their people, and yet all their kids still managed to graduate from college. How so? Because they knew THEY and they alone were responsible for how their lives turned out, and they made the right choices.

And if I might circle back to upbringing, since Vine in her superior wisdom saw fit to criticize MINE - people who are brought up well have learned that you don’t blame other people for your own mistakes,

And which mistakes have I made Lisa?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

You might notice that the first is dated 1929 and the second is dated 1933. All of your excuses come from long ago and before the various equal rights laws were passed. Nothing in law or societal attitudes today prevents a Black American from being as successful as any other American.

Well you're wrong about the attitudes especially since a change in law doesn't guarantee a change in attitude or adherence to the new laws. There is still a lot of residual racism left over and I personally think it's a wonderful idea that the people below are removing the covenants from existing deeds yet preserving the deeds as originally written to show the history of this particular form of racism:

Law that keeps racist covenants in separate public record helps preserve history, top state court says​

By Debra Cassens Weiss​

April 4, 2022, 10:29 am CDT​

Image from Shutterstock.​

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The Washington Supreme Court has said a new state law strikes a balance between removing racial covenants from a home’s title while keeping them part of the public record.​

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The state supreme court said in a March 31 opinion the new law applies to the case of homeowner Alex May, who sought to remove a racially restrictive covenant on his deed and eliminate the restriction from the public record. The law was enacted after an appeals court ruled in May’s case that a court order striking the covenant should be included in the property record, but there is no need to alter existing records.​

​

The new law allows homeowners to get a court order to remove illegal covenants from chains of title. A homeowner takes the corrected document to county recording officials, who place it in the public records with a notation that the original document was corrected. County officials then update the indexes of each original document referenced in the court order, adding a note the original document is no longer the primary official record.​

​

The old document is then maintained separately by the county.​

​

Washington is one of the first states to adopt a statute requiring this process, according to Vicky Dalton, the Spokane County, Washington, auditor, who spoke with the Spokesman-Review.​

​

“This is really exciting because this is the case that’s going to help us test all those steps out,” Dalton said.​

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The restrictive covenant on May’s deed said: “No race or nationality other than the white race shall use or occupy any building on any lot, except that this covenant shall not prevent occupancy by domestic servants of a different race or nationality employed by an owner or tenant.”​

​

The Washington Supreme Court noted that in 1948, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in Shelley v. Kraemer that racially restrictive covenants are unenforceable but not illegal. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 made racially restrictive covenants illegal.​

Law that keeps racist covenants in separate public record helps preserve history, top state court says

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Lisa, if you are unable to read one or more statements and then draw a correct conclusion, while I am, then perhaps my critical thinking skills ARE superior to yours. However being more proficient in a particular area doesn't make me a better person than you, but it does make me better equipped to deal with bullshit arguments.

Let's say the following is a class assignment:

Ray from Cleveland BELIEVES that George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin.

The State of Florida has ruled that George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin.

Newsvine_Mariyam states that Ray from Cleveland BELIEVES George Zimmerman acted lawfully when he killed Trayvon Martin BECAUSE the State of Florida ruled that Zimmerman acted lawfully.

Newvine_Mariyam states further than Ray's beliefs are reinforced by other previous court cases in which black men have been killed by whites absent an imminent threat of grievous bodily injury or death, such as when the person shot is shot in the back while attempting to flee, as one example.

Did they not teach you deductive reasoning in class or did you not attend college? I'm not telling Ray what he believes, he told ME what he believes and I was pointing out that he's confident in his beliefs because they are back by rulings in our justice system which traditionally have been unfavorable to black people, black men especially.

It has nothing to do with what I believe. What I stated was law. I even provided the context of that law with a Florida state link.

Zimmerman is a minority himself. He's half white and half Hispanic. Of course the media can't get people to protest and riot over that. it's why their original reporting and follow ups were that Zimmerman was a white male.

It has nothing to do with past cases either or the race of those involved. It has to do with laws passed by the state legislature, again....which I posted to support my position.

Self defense is not a belief. You were either defending yourself or you weren't.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

They don't "jump in line ahead of them" they climbed the ladder faster. We all get it that blacks in the deep south had it bad up until the sixties. But many Blacks moved North and West and did quite well for themselves. Others moved and didn't do as well. There were, are and always will be bigots in all races and religions. A smart person doesn't allow a bigot to define them but achieves to spite the bigot.

Your opinion is not based in reality. How would you like to be a highly decorated officer risking your life fighting in WWII and have the German POWs treated better than you because they are white and you are black? That's just one example but it's a pretty glaring one.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

I've had about five different section 8 people living next door to me, and every single one was a problem. The last ones the husband shot at his wife through a kitchen window at 4:30 in the morning on a work night. Prior to that was the screaming and yelling that took place.

Yes, they are a problem, and they are destroying neighborhoods all across the country. Thank goodness it's been empty for about a year. So nice and quiet, people could actually sleep at night. Now that he fixed up all the damage in one of the units, he's showing it once again. When he finds renters, I'll be putting the police phone number back in my favorites in my cell phone because I know I'll be using it all the time like I have with the others.

Are they all black? What about the property owner?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Ray you keep repeating the same ignorant argument. The majority of the lawmakers in this country are white and public policy made by whites is the main problem. The claim of property values decreasing because of blacks is racist fake news. There are affluent black neighborhoods in Cleveland son and poor white ones. I live in Kansas and if I drive down any highway in this state, I see dead all white rural towns that look worse that the so called black slums you have created in your mind. And nobody is rushing to live in them. Property values are low and declining. It ain't because blacks are moving in. Boy, you're as ignorant as it gets.

So what does the race of lawmakers have to do with anything? Property values always decline when blacks move in. It's just a fact outside of affluent areas where only educated and civilized blacks can afford.

So where in Cleveland (which I have lived all of my life) are these affluent black areas at? I don't seem to know where they are, and I'm a retired local truck driver. And if there are any, why didn't the head of BLM move into one of them? Seems to me that Buy Lotsa Mansions did so in totally white areas.

But I'm always up to the challenge: Give me the name of any middle-class city where blacks took over that didn't have an increase in crimes, particularly violent crimes. I'll be glad to look them up and present my findings. It's supposed to rain all day Tuesday. If available, I'll even post the history of property values there. I'm not talking about 5% or 10% blacks, I'm talking about a majority of blacks where the makeup is 50% or more.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Are they all black? What about the property owner?

The property owner is from the middle-east. He buys rental property and charges outrageous prices that nobody would pay outside of Section 8. They get their vouchers, add money to them from their part-time jobs, and that's how they sneak into the suburbs. I've had fights with the guy about his tenants. I even threatened him that if I lose one tenant over his tenants, their noise, their disruption, I'll be suing him in court for my losses. His eyes lit up like he just met Jesus.

Yes, his tenants were all black.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Who said anything about reversing it? What we are saying is that it's not applicable to your situation today nor anybody else of your race.

Assuming you are not using the word "racism" as defined by any dictionary, and using the word to describe discrimination against black people, I'm sure it happens, but it's very rare these days, and certainly not nearly enough to hold a large percentage of people back, especially when the majority has moved well beyond that. The "damage" you speak of was not done to you, it was done to people before you ended up on this planet, many of whom you never even met.

There is a huge difference between going to jail for a DUI, or perhaps a traffic violation for not paying attention to your driving, and risking a huge lawsuit and reputation of your company. The risk is much greater with the latter which is why it's very rare.

Two things:
1. Are you going to apologize to me for calling me a liar when you said I do not have a Florida concealed carry permit?

2. Your opinion that racism "is very rare these days" is wrong and I don't know where you're getting your information. The EEOC has current stats, you don't believe them? Every state has their own civil rights office and they are in the year 2022, investigating and processing cases with findings of racial and other discrimination. You don't believe them either?

Then there is our criminal justice system. This guy immediately came to mind when I read that you believe racism is rare in our current day and age:

On May 26, 2017, Jeremy Joseph Christian fatally stabbed two white men and injured a third after he was confronted for shouting racist and anti-Muslim slurs at two black teenagers, Destinee Mangum and Walia Mohamed, on a MAX Light Rail train in Portland, Oregon.[1][2] Two of the victims, Ricky John Best of Happy Valley and Taliesin Myrddin Namkai-Meche of Portland, were killed; the third victim, Micah David-Cole Fletcher, survived serious wounds.​

​

Christian, a white supremacist[1] and self-described white nationalist,[3] was arrested and indicted soon after the attack on charges of murder, attempted murder, and other crimes,[4][5] including a separate hate-crime assault the day before the fatal attack.[6] In February 2020, following a jury trial, Christian was found guilty on all counts.[2] Christian was sentenced on June 24, 2020, to two life terms.[7]​

 

[MarathonMike]

Well, this thread has been dragged into a rabbit hole so allow me to bring it back. Lisa is 100% correct. Racism, specifically SYSTEMIC racism is not the cause of poverty in Black people. Certainly having a baby before you are financially or emotionally ready is about the worst thing you can do to yourself or your child. And again Lisa is 100% correct that it doesn't matter if your skin is White, Black, Brown or polka dot. Your trip into poverty is virtually guaranteed.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Can you name me a bank that ever called police because a black person looked suspicious, or a police officer that pulled over a black person when they had no infraction of the law?

Maybe the problem is because you're not black you're not aware of the things that happen to black people, sort of the equivalence to living in la la land.

This happens on a regular basis:
Arizona Bank Calls Police on Black Man Trying to Cash Check Received From Boat Sale
This one had guns drawn on him
https://www.usnews.com/news/enterta...-director-mistaken-for-bank-robber-in-atlanta

And urban legends? Really? A public records request can be used to verify police activity and what's reported in the story.

 

[JoeB131]

No Joe it's not the same. This doesn't seem to register. Ray and Lisa were taught racist beliefs. Paul has faced racism. All his life. Just like I have. Ray and Lisa believe what they do based on lies. Paul believes what he does because of the way he has seen whites treat him and other blacks. You really have got to start understanding this instead of creating a false equivalence.

Now don't try giving me some easy solution based on your opinion because until you live for years facing racism every day or the threat of it, you do not know how it feels.

Paul hates white people because of the way SOME white people act.
Lisa and Ray have black people because of the way SOME black people act.

I take the sensible position that you should only hate THAT PERSON.

Now, let's talk about one of my biases. I have as strong dislike of organized religion. Probably a side effect of 12 years of Catholic education. I have a particular contempt for Mormons. But I base that on what they actually believe, and how they act, not on who they are.

All those things went on while blacks were under Jim Crow. You need to quit dismissing how blacks feel with things like this. It makes you look racist. Paul is talking about what blacks have experienced. How about trying to discuss that instead of what you're doing?

I don't spend much time worrying about "Feelings". Funny thing, one of my best friends is a Filipina lady. The Philippines suffered under American colonization for something like 50 years, including the afformentioned war where 200,000 Filipinos were killed by American troops. Never heard her complain about that once, nor any other Filipino i've gotten to know over the years. She went from being an immigrant 16 years ago to being a director today.

Sure, racism is going to be thing you encounter, and it's wrong and we need to stop it. But it shouldn't be an excuse.

Ray you keep repeating the same ignorant argument. The majority of the lawmakers in this country are white and public policy made by whites is the main problem. The claim of property values decreasing because of blacks is racist fake news. There are affluent black neighborhoods in Cleveland son and poor white ones. I live in Kansas and if I drive down any highway in this state, I see dead all white rural towns that look worse that the so called black slums you have created in your mind. And nobody is rushing to live in them. Property values are low and declining. It ain't because blacks are moving in. Boy, you're as ignorant as it gets.

But wait, how can that be? If racism is so endemic, how is it there are poor white neighborhoods? Sounds to me that the problem is economic, not racial.

 

[Lisa558]

I never said I personally was better than anyone white, or anything to indicate that I believe that the black race is better than the white race.

I was talking about specific individuals here who happen to be white racists. Some are self-admitted white racists, the others keep saying things to indicate that they are racists yet pitch a hissy fit if you call them one.

Don't let them confuse you.

There are no white racists here. Only those who say that blacks who remain in poverty are doing it to themselves via their bad choices - mainly have a child out of wedlock they can’t afford - the same way poor whites do.

 

[Lisa558]

So now we're getting to the truth.

I guess you didn't read the part in the Compton article which stated that property values going down was due to the perceptions that whites had not due to any actual material facts, and the perceptions that they perpetuated that black people moving in was an indicator that the property values were going to go down. The article also mentioned that the black people in the mixed neighborhoods tended to keep their properties/gardens in better condition than the white residents and they stated that actual records from the agencies that tracks the mortgages I guess indicated that black people defaulted on their mortgages a lot less than the white people who were all in a panic about the blacks moving into their white neighborhood did.



I was not objecting to you all discussing your families, only to the double standard that you have when I bring up mine.

Maybe this will clear things up a bit however I'm not going to hold my breath.

You, as a white woman, chose to post on a public message board an allegedly benign recommendation as to how poor black people can climb out of poverty. Despite your protestations to the contrary, you singled out black people as the subject of your commentary, correction "poor" black people. That comment about poor white people [as well] does nothing to negate how your comment came across.

Poor black people are the demographic with the least amount of power in the social-economic hierarchy so your comment went over all well as if your thread had been entitled "The problem with the darkies".

Had you introduced your topic as an invitation to discuss the differences between blacks and whites living in poverty I believe you would have gotten a different response presuming though 1) that you want honest debate and 2) not merely a platform from which to denigrate black people, especially those living in poverty.

When it was pointed out to you that you singling out black people makes you look like a racist, instead of self-correcting you doubled-down and shifted into hypermode. When it was additionally pointed out to you that your premise is faulty because the white supremacist laws that were put in place at the founding of this country undergirds EVERY aspect of the lives of black people in the United States and therefore we don't start from the same place in our upward trajectory, instead of pondering how that could be and what the implications of something of that nature are, you along with the rest of USMB's resident racists went on the attack with the same old tired bullshit regarding black people. That nothing in our lives is within our control, that racism is just an excuse, we blame everything on racism, we're all failures, blah blah blah, yeah we've heard it all before.

You probably won't live long enough to ever realize the errors of your ways, but you're wrong as are your supporters. I've been giving you all the benefit of the doubt that you have the ability to expand your minds, do some real research and perhaps understand the perspectives of someone black who has lived the things we've explained to you all instead of you all just having read about them.

I understand what it feel like to not want to read or know about certain things, I get that. But if you choose to remain willfully ignorant about black people in America and our history that's certainly your choice and your right. But if you continue to make false statements about us or any of our history then that is a whole different situation because white racists lying on black people and lying about us traditionally has had the potential to cause harm to us.

And for the record, I have never indicated that I am "better" than you. That would be a very arrogant statement for anyone to make. On the other hand, there are a lot of white people who presume they are better than us with no supporting evidence of any sort. It's particularly amusing when they know little to nothing about their own history, the history of the U.S. and nothing but erroneous beliefs when it comes to black people EXCEPT for the fact that white people at one time in this country had the legal right to dominion over the black race. I'm sure they long for a return to such times.

I presume there are things that you are more knowledgeable about than myself just as I know there are things I'm more knowledgeable about than you, Ray and Monk. Part of it is because my dad taught us to seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave, the other part is because it's required as part of my profession.

What can you concede?

Ah! So you say would have approved if I had opened the thread about the different reasons blacks and whites are poor? Well, DUH. of course you would. That’s YOUR position: that blacks are poor (of the minority who are) because of racism.

Bit that is not why I opened the thread. I opened it to refute the blame that whites are getting because some SOME p blacks are poor. No, poor blacks are so because they are having children out of wedlock (a 75% illegitimacy rate is shameful) and not completing their schooling as a result.

And your sarcastic comment about “the problem with the darkies” shows that you inject racism into everything. MY point was that, generations after racism has been wiped from the books, it’s not fair to blame whitey for blacks’ poor decisions that result in their poverty.

And IM2, one of the worst racists on this forum, made my point himself. He angrily defended himself as being a successful black man - proudly explaining how he never fathered an out of wedlock child and he went to college. Bam! That’s my point! He made the right choices, and thus he isn’t stuck in poverty.

Until blacks are willing to accept that they are responsible for their own outcomes, and that f’ing when you’re a teen without birth control is almost guaranteed to result in a child you can’t afford, and a life of financial struggle - and that successful blacks TELL them that, rather than make excuses for them - I don’t see how the black poverty rate will go down.

 

[Lisa558]

Racism is an impediment. How much it holds you back depends on a whole lot of factors.

There have always been people who can help a person they want to succeed navigate around the obstacles that racism presents. But think about it, while being affluent certainly will help you with upward mobility, everyone knows that black people of celebrity status and mega fortunes STILL get harassed by the police, STILL get jammed up and the police called on them by the banks, if they are unrecognized STILL are treated with suspicion in some situations, etc.

UNTIL racism is removed completely, which personally, I don't believe it will be or can be, at least not during my lifetime, the suspicion and possibility that it has contributed to a negative outcome cannot be discounted. That is a scientific fact, or mathematical if you prefer.

I know you don't want to believe that racism has ANYTHING to do with ANY of the problems that black people face, even as we continue our upward climb, but that belief is just not factual.

Yes. Racism is an impediment. So is antisemitism. But one moves beyond poverty, and amidst bigotry, into outright affluence if smart and motivated enough, by making the right choices. The fact that some blacks are still in poverty, while the majority are NOT, speaks to the poor choices the poor blacks have made….NOT racism.

Just as IM2 said, he is a successful black man because he didn’t father an illegitimate baby and he went to college. Instead of blaming whitey for the fact that some blacks are still poor, he - and you - and ALL successful blacks should be emphasizing and teaching young black children that the way out of poverty is by NOT becoming an unwed teen mother and instead graduating from high school, at a minimum, and going on to get some sort of career or vocational training.

Instead, you’re trying to convince them that their failures are not their fault, but whitey’s. THAT type of message is the real impediment.

 

[Indeependent]

Let's see, 243 years that the United States has been in existence. 57 years since the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

That's 186 years of LAWFUL RACIAL DISCRIMINATION against black people versus 57 years where such RACIAL DISCRIMINATION is UNLAWFUL.

I see your bullshit claim of 58 years of "welfare" (you made a mistake, it's not 58 yet) and raise you 186+ years of reparations.

And you all should give your government welfare checks that you received during COVID back to the government if you're so opposed to "welfare".

Cry us a river.
I work in 3 Black towns where people are doing quite well because they actually studied instead of hanging out at the bar.