The Third Rail -- 3rd Party Thread

[Pogo]

I voted what I thought was the lesser of 2 evils when I voted for Dubya the first time, man was I wrong

I voted for Green (Nader). My state was going red regardless what I did anyway, so I made a statement, however small.

 

[Pogo]

OK, since the site seems to be channeling attention into the Clinton/Trump Duopoly, a/k/a Tweedle Dee/Tweedle Dumb, and since said Republicrat/Demoblican Duopoly is in dire need of some outside energy to challenge it, rather than just obsequiously follow along going "yes masters, may we have more of the same old thing", now therefore let us create this alternative channel for the candidates that are not named Clinton or Trump. Let this be the wellspring to make the case for, or simply to inform about, any candidates outside the System.

Some facts first:

Neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump have been nominated by a party. The respective parties must take that step at their conventions. In the Democrats' case Bernie Sanders is still running in hopes of usurping "pledged" Clinton delegates; in the case of the Republicans a similar "conscience" vote may nullify the primary results depending on how they address their own rules (they did something similar in 1912 when Teddy Roosevelt breezed through primary elections winning most of the states but was snubbed at the convention).

This thread will not be intended for those points; just pointing out the fact.

Fact Two: since the 1988 election, national televised debates have been run under the auspices of something called the Commission on Presidential Debates, which is an outright collusion by the two major party (singular intentional) to ensure that they can jointly negotiate what topics and what alternative candidates will be avoided, thus ensuring nobody who challenges their supreme Duopoly will get a voice in it. Hence the pressing need to bring those alternative voices out.

So bring forth your Gary Johnsons and your Jill Steins, your Darrell Castles and your Gloria LaRivas. Show us what they're about, and more importantly ---- what the issues and views are that the Duopoly doesn't want us to know about. As well, tell us who should be running as 3P if they didn't get the nomination of the Duopoly Party.

​

flacaltenn
Lucy Hamilton
boedicca

Whoa there sport. I reject your premise. You must be smoking some wicked stuff if you are classifying Trump as " yes master, can I have some more of the same old thing". You are aware that the GOP establishment hates the big orange clown, aren't you? On the Donkey side, sure, the pantsuit bull dyke is what the Dems forced down their followers throat. Nice try, but you missed on the premise, the orange clown is a long way from McCain or Romney.

I speak there of the robotic zombified thinking of "must..... vote ...... Democrat ..... or...... Republican.... ". It refers to the vision thing, or lack thereof, the binary thinking that the Duopoly is all there is. In any year.

And as I already pointed out in the OP --- neither Rump nor Clinton is a nominated candidate anyway, and there's no guarantee that they will be the nominees.

This thread is to counterbalance that binary zombiethink that seems to be locked not only into the Duopoly, but to their presumptive nominees before they've even been nominated.

I love that shit

You have a diverse audience here, Pogo. It includes people like me who don't have robotic, zombified thinking when it comes to politics. The duopoly isn't necessarily the fault of the electorate....but more likely owed to the way that debate participants are decided and how polls are administered.

I've looked into Johnson and Weld....heard them both speak and watched some of their convention. I've made a thoughtful, reasoned decision to not vote for them. Just as I have made a thoughtful, reasoned decision to vote for Clinton. You can run around calling every thoughtful Clinton voter or Trump voter a zombie if you like. Have a party.

In this cycle, the libertarians.......who should be on the debate stage.....have taken advantage of the train wreck going on in the GOP and the undeniable perception that Clinton is a lying bitch to gain some added notariety. That is fine. But...it doesn't make the libertarian platform any more attractive to people who are not zombies.

Again, like the other poster you're injecting the personal into where it didn't exist. This really ain't about boxing oneself into voting for "Clinton or Trump". It's about boxing oneself into voting for "Democrat or Republican". And again, neither one of those people has even been nominated.

On the more basic level it's about the intellectual throwing up one's hands and caving in. Like this site did when it put up a "candidate corner" and listed nobody except those two names. All that does is perpetuate the Same Old Thing. At base it's about breaking out of the binary thinking -- the dead-end idea that "I have to vote Duopoly because 'everybody else' is voting Duopoly".

Think of it if you like as a thread not advocating for or against any particular candidate, but a thread strongly against Groupthink.

 

[Two Thumbs]

OK, since the site seems to be channeling attention into the Clinton/Trump Duopoly, a/k/a Tweedle Dee/Tweedle Dumb, and since said Republicrat/Demoblican Duopoly is in dire need of some outside energy to challenge it, rather than just obsequiously follow along going "yes masters, may we have more of the same old thing", now therefore let us create this alternative channel for the candidates that are not named Clinton or Trump. Let this be the wellspring to make the case for, or simply to inform about, any candidates outside the System.

Some facts first:

Neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump have been nominated by a party. The respective parties must take that step at their conventions. In the Democrats' case Bernie Sanders is still running in hopes of usurping "pledged" Clinton delegates; in the case of the Republicans a similar "conscience" vote may nullify the primary results depending on how they address their own rules (they did something similar in 1912 when Teddy Roosevelt breezed through primary elections winning most of the states but was snubbed at the convention).

This thread will not be intended for those points; just pointing out the fact.

Fact Two: since the 1988 election, national televised debates have been run under the auspices of something called the Commission on Presidential Debates, which is an outright collusion by the two major party (singular intentional) to ensure that they can jointly negotiate what topics and what alternative candidates will be avoided, thus ensuring nobody who challenges their supreme Duopoly will get a voice in it. Hence the pressing need to bring those alternative voices out.

So bring forth your Gary Johnsons and your Jill Steins, your Darrell Castles and your Gloria LaRivas. Show us what they're about, and more importantly ---- what the issues and views are that the Duopoly doesn't want us to know about. As well, tell us who should be running as 3P if they didn't get the nomination of the Duopoly Party.

​

flacaltenn
Lucy Hamilton
boedicca

Gary is going to run and Bern should run as well, either as an (I) or SP.

Gary has no chance of doing more than 3% of the vote with the +/- 3%.

Trump actually is 3rd party; he's blending some con views with liber, but really he's a liberal.

The rest of the out parties have no chance, ever, unless we rid ourselves of the political process that forces the 2 party system on us.

every pary should have an equal shot and equal say in the debates.

If that means there are 50 people running for Pres, then so be it.

I sure would love to see more competition.

But obviously, at some point, the electoral college system would have to be dumped.

On balance, I could live with that.
.

In the computer age we are in now the need of the EC is pointless and actually waste more time than it would save.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I voted what I thought was the lesser of 2 evils when I voted for Dubya the first time, man was I wrong

I voted for Green (Nader). My state was going red regardless what I did anyway, so I made a statement, however small.

Dubya was a total fucking lying scumbag. If Dante were still haning out assignments to the Inferno, the entire fucking Bush clan would be down in the 9th Circle with the rest of the fucking traitors

 

[DigitalDrifter]

Just like in all past elections, a third party candidate this time around will have the same name: "L-O-S-E-R".

 

[flacaltenn]

Unfortunately the Green Party and others will likely NOT be on enough state ballots to represent the 270 electoral needed to win. But the LP will be. And I've worked closely with the Green Party on mutual ballot/debate access issues.

If the Johnson ticket polls 15% and the DNC/RNC crybabies STILL throw a fit --- it will be the BEST media coverage we could ever hope for.

If anyone wants a CURRENT view of Johnson/Weld -- CNN just did a 1 hour Libertarian Town Hall and ran the 2 guys through the wringer on everything from ISIS to prison reform and drug war policy. Easy to find the PodCasts or the summary on the web..

Unfortunately the Green Party and others will likely NOT be on enough state ballots to represent the 270 electoral needed to win.

False, the Green Party currently has access to 20 state ballots representing a total of 296 electoral votes.

Sorry about that.. I didn't add up the numbers. Time is VERY short and I doubt they will make 40 states..

 

[flacaltenn]

Just like in all past elections, a third party candidate this time around will have the same name: "L-O-S-E-R".

The only L-O-S-E-R-s are the idiots who when faced with 2 candidates who have the HIGHEST HISTORICAL negatives and the most power hungry meglomaniacs ever foisted on them --- Those idiots would vote for one of those terrible choices and poop on a perfectly good ticket with 2 socially liberal -- economic conservative governors with a PASSION to fix Washington D.C.. You're about to get run over by a train...

 

[G.T.]

If you Vote for me, I will campaign on rejuvenating a corrupt system and upon election, subsequently fold all of my views for the right price in US dollars. ca ching ca ching. Vote for me.

 

[HenryBHough]

While Sanders may have rolled over some of his supporters are sufficiently disgusted that they might wander off. But not all. I do expect a small but notable number of Sanders write-ins come November.

On the other hand, I believe when Hillary is thrown under the buy by the Soroscrats at their convention she will be sufficiently bitter to take the foundations billions and launch an independent run. Not that she might have any hope of victory but it's the closest she could come to putting a figurative bullet through the forehead of the party spurning her.

Do not underestimate the power of the bitch scorned.

 

[flacaltenn]

I speak there of the robotic zombified thinking of "must..... vote ...... Democrat ..... or...... Republican.... ". It refers to the vision thing, or lack thereof, the binary thinking that the Duopoly is all there is. In any year.

And as I already pointed out in the OP --- neither Rump nor Clinton is a nominated candidate anyway, and there's no guarantee that they will be the nominees.

This thread is to counterbalance that binary zombiethink that seems to be locked not only into the Duopoly, but to their presumptive nominees before they've even been nominated.

Seems pointless, either a dem or rep will be the next POTUS, and highly likely either Orange clown or pantsuit bull dyke.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. If you do what you've always done you'll get what you always got.

I agree but this is a team sport not just yourself. You cant make other people vote for a 3rd party no matter how much you want them too.

That isn't the point here. The point is something outside the Established Duopoly has the right to say "I exist". The point is to resist that binary thinking and open the possibilities.

I dont think the point is to obtain a hollow victory. Your actions have consequences outside of you making an idealistic point. You can resist binary thinking without cutting off your nose to spite your face. At some point there is a reality that needs to be addressed. The person that gets elected will appoint judges that interpret laws. They will also represent your country internationally. i always tell people to register as an independent if you want to make a point.

And what makes you think that only PEDIGREED people with an R or D after their names are CAPABLE of making logical and reasoned choices? In FACT -- if you ARE a R or a D -- we pretty much know your choices will be based on maintaining POWER and CONTROL and NOT in general best interests of the country.,.

 

[Asclepias]

Seems pointless, either a dem or rep will be the next POTUS, and highly likely either Orange clown or pantsuit bull dyke.

Self-fulfilling prophecy. If you do what you've always done you'll get what you always got.

I agree but this is a team sport not just yourself. You cant make other people vote for a 3rd party no matter how much you want them too.

That isn't the point here. The point is something outside the Established Duopoly has the right to say "I exist". The point is to resist that binary thinking and open the possibilities.

I dont think the point is to obtain a hollow victory. Your actions have consequences outside of you making an idealistic point. You can resist binary thinking without cutting off your nose to spite your face. At some point there is a reality that needs to be addressed. The person that gets elected will appoint judges that interpret laws. They will also represent your country internationally. i always tell people to register as an independent if you want to make a point.

And what makes you think that only PEDIGREED people with an R or D after their names are CAPABLE of making logical and reasoned choices? In FACT -- if you ARE a R or a D -- we pretty much know your choices will be based on maintaining POWER and CONTROL and NOT in general best interests of the country.,.

What in my post made you assume I thought that? Youre reading comprehension seems to have fallen several levels since we last tangled.

 

[flacaltenn]

OK, since the site seems to be channeling attention into the Clinton/Trump Duopoly, a/k/a Tweedle Dee/Tweedle Dumb, and since said Republicrat/Demoblican Duopoly is in dire need of some outside energy to challenge it, rather than just obsequiously follow along going "yes masters, may we have more of the same old thing", now therefore let us create this alternative channel for the candidates that are not named Clinton or Trump. Let this be the wellspring to make the case for, or simply to inform about, any candidates outside the System.

Some facts first:

Neither Hillary Clinton nor Donald Trump have been nominated by a party. The respective parties must take that step at their conventions. In the Democrats' case Bernie Sanders is still running in hopes of usurping "pledged" Clinton delegates; in the case of the Republicans a similar "conscience" vote may nullify the primary results depending on how they address their own rules (they did something similar in 1912 when Teddy Roosevelt breezed through primary elections winning most of the states but was snubbed at the convention).

This thread will not be intended for those points; just pointing out the fact.

Fact Two: since the 1988 election, national televised debates have been run under the auspices of something called the Commission on Presidential Debates, which is an outright collusion by the two major party (singular intentional) to ensure that they can jointly negotiate what topics and what alternative candidates will be avoided, thus ensuring nobody who challenges their supreme Duopoly will get a voice in it. Hence the pressing need to bring those alternative voices out.

So bring forth your Gary Johnsons and your Jill Steins, your Darrell Castles and your Gloria LaRivas. Show us what they're about, and more importantly ---- what the issues and views are that the Duopoly doesn't want us to know about. As well, tell us who should be running as 3P if they didn't get the nomination of the Duopoly Party.

​

flacaltenn
Lucy Hamilton
boedicca

Gary is going to run and Bern should run as well, either as an (I) or SP.

Gary has no chance of doing more than 3% of the vote with the +/- 3%.

Trump actually is 3rd party; he's blending some con views with liber, but really he's a liberal.

The rest of the out parties have no chance, ever, unless we rid ourselves of the political process that forces the 2 party system on us.

every pary should have an equal shot and equal say in the debates.

If that means there are 50 people running for Pres, then so be it.

Truth of the matter is --- The LP ticket is official. It contains 2 governors that are READY to make D.C. functional again. And they combine the BEST ideas from both the Left and the Right. Put the LP in the race and watch the train get established. ESPECIALLY after the horseshit that's gonna happen at both of the jackass conventions..

OR -- when the RNC/DNC starts whining like babies when Johnson/Weld starts polling 15% and they SHOULD be included in the debates.

 

[flacaltenn]

Self-fulfilling prophecy. If you do what you've always done you'll get what you always got.

I agree but this is a team sport not just yourself. You cant make other people vote for a 3rd party no matter how much you want them too.

That isn't the point here. The point is something outside the Established Duopoly has the right to say "I exist". The point is to resist that binary thinking and open the possibilities.

I dont think the point is to obtain a hollow victory. Your actions have consequences outside of you making an idealistic point. You can resist binary thinking without cutting off your nose to spite your face. At some point there is a reality that needs to be addressed. The person that gets elected will appoint judges that interpret laws. They will also represent your country internationally. i always tell people to register as an independent if you want to make a point.

And what makes you think that only PEDIGREED people with an R or D after their names are CAPABLE of making logical and reasoned choices? In FACT -- if you ARE a R or a D -- we pretty much know your choices will be based on maintaining POWER and CONTROL and NOT in general best interests of the country.,.

What in my post made you assume I thought that? Youre reading comprehension seems to have fallen several levels since we last tangled.

What was all that bluster aimed at then? If not that any choice OTHER than the 2 poor choices is "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? You think it's a WASTED vote? 49% of Americans ALWAYS cast wasted votes. You think those Sup CT. appointments could not be made by a 2 term governor of a MODERATE state?

 

[flacaltenn]

The libertarian party platform places no trust in government or elected officials. . Instead, it entrusts corporations and unelected leaders with the steering wheel.

It demands that government stay out of contractual agreements between individuals or other entities.....which ignores the fact that contracts don't exist without government's ability to enforce them.

Fun stuff. But not practical.

This is the type of general ignorance that is gonna DISAPPEAR once the process is OPENED to 3rd parties.. Too many people spouting off crap like "... it entrusts corporations and unelected leaders with the steering wheel":.

Here's a bit of reality for you.. Libertarian politicians have ALWAYS been adamant about COMPLETELY de-rooting Corporate welfare and handouts. You will not find people or candidates more signed up to do that job. NOTHING that exists on the markets already should be subsidize for corporations. The government should NEVER be picking winners and losers in the marketplace. THAT'S where the corporate -- govt collusion starts. And WE -- unlike your pansy 2 parties would end all that tomorrow. We are COMPLETELY in agreement with Bernie on those plans..

 

[Asclepias]

I agree but this is a team sport not just yourself. You cant make other people vote for a 3rd party no matter how much you want them too.

That isn't the point here. The point is something outside the Established Duopoly has the right to say "I exist". The point is to resist that binary thinking and open the possibilities.

I dont think the point is to obtain a hollow victory. Your actions have consequences outside of you making an idealistic point. You can resist binary thinking without cutting off your nose to spite your face. At some point there is a reality that needs to be addressed. The person that gets elected will appoint judges that interpret laws. They will also represent your country internationally. i always tell people to register as an independent if you want to make a point.

And what makes you think that only PEDIGREED people with an R or D after their names are CAPABLE of making logical and reasoned choices? In FACT -- if you ARE a R or a D -- we pretty much know your choices will be based on maintaining POWER and CONTROL and NOT in general best interests of the country.,.

What in my post made you assume I thought that? Youre reading comprehension seems to have fallen several levels since we last tangled.

What was all that bluster aimed at then? If not that any choice OTHER than the 2 poor choices is "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? You think it's a WASTED vote? 49% of Americans ALWAYS cast wasted votes. You think those Sup CT. appointments could not be made by a 2 term governor of a MODERATE state?

What bluster are you talking about? Yeah if you vote for someone that has no chance of winning then your vote is wasted. No one but you knows or cares that you voted for someone that wasnt even a blip on the radar. Where did you get this 49% figure? Did you just make that up? Governors dont appoint federal SP judges. What made you think they could?

FAQs: Federal Judges

"Supreme Court justices, court of appeals judges, and district court judges are nominated by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate, as stated in the Constitution. "

 

[LoneLaugher]

The libertarian party platform places no trust in government or elected officials. . Instead, it entrusts corporations and unelected leaders with the steering wheel.

It demands that government stay out of contractual agreements between individuals or other entities.....which ignores the fact that contracts don't exist without government's ability to enforce them.

Fun stuff. But not practical.

This is the type of general ignorance that is gonna DISAPPEAR once the process is OPENED to 3rd parties.. Too many people spouting off crap like "... it entrusts corporations and unelected leaders with the steering wheel":.

Here's a bit of reality for you.. Libertarian politicians have ALWAYS been adamant about COMPLETELY de-rooting Corporate welfare and handouts. You will not find people or candidates more signed up to do that job. NOTHING that exists on the markets already should be subsidize for corporations. The government should NEVER be picking winners and losers in the marketplace. THAT'S where the corporate -- govt collusion starts. And WE -- unlike your pansy 2 parties would end all that tomorrow. We are COMPLETELY in agreement with Bernie on those plans..

Sorry. The platform is clear. No PA laws. No Social Security. No regulations on health insurance providers. No pollution regulations.

It's a fantasy land where the public good is magically aligned with the profit motive.....and corporations do the right thing for society out of self interest.

It isn't practical. Go ahead and get pissy about it.

 

[Tehon]

Unfortunately the Green Party and others will likely NOT be on enough state ballots to represent the 270 electoral needed to win. But the LP will be. And I've worked closely with the Green Party on mutual ballot/debate access issues.

If the Johnson ticket polls 15% and the DNC/RNC crybabies STILL throw a fit --- it will be the BEST media coverage we could ever hope for.

If anyone wants a CURRENT view of Johnson/Weld -- CNN just did a 1 hour Libertarian Town Hall and ran the 2 guys through the wringer on everything from ISIS to prison reform and drug war policy. Easy to find the PodCasts or the summary on the web..

Unfortunately the Green Party and others will likely NOT be on enough state ballots to represent the 270 electoral needed to win.

False, the Green Party currently has access to 20 state ballots representing a total of 296 electoral votes.

Sorry about that.. I didn't add up the numbers. Time is VERY short and I doubt they will make 40 states..

They have roughly another month to gain more ballot access, but even if they don't maybe it isn't all that critical. The key is to garner 5% of the vote, winning obviously isn't realistic.

 

[flacaltenn]

That isn't the point here. The point is something outside the Established Duopoly has the right to say "I exist". The point is to resist that binary thinking and open the possibilities.

I dont think the point is to obtain a hollow victory. Your actions have consequences outside of you making an idealistic point. You can resist binary thinking without cutting off your nose to spite your face. At some point there is a reality that needs to be addressed. The person that gets elected will appoint judges that interpret laws. They will also represent your country internationally. i always tell people to register as an independent if you want to make a point.

And what makes you think that only PEDIGREED people with an R or D after their names are CAPABLE of making logical and reasoned choices? In FACT -- if you ARE a R or a D -- we pretty much know your choices will be based on maintaining POWER and CONTROL and NOT in general best interests of the country.,.

What in my post made you assume I thought that? Youre reading comprehension seems to have fallen several levels since we last tangled.

What was all that bluster aimed at then? If not that any choice OTHER than the 2 poor choices is "cutting off your nose to spite your face"? You think it's a WASTED vote? 49% of Americans ALWAYS cast wasted votes. You think those Sup CT. appointments could not be made by a 2 term governor of a MODERATE state?

What bluster are you talking about? Yeah if you vote for someone that has no chance of winning then your vote is wasted. No one but you knows or cares that you voted for someone that wasnt even a blip on the radar. Where did you get this 49% figure? Did you just make that up? Governors dont appoint federal SP judges. What made you think they could?

FAQs: Federal Judges

"Supreme Court justices, court of appeals judges, and district court judges are nominated by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate, as stated in the Constitution. "

Just not connecting here at all. I'll check my translations.. The 49% who WASTE their votes are the 49% who get "creamed" by the 51% in a stogey 2 way race. But of course you will say ---- .... "but they did that on PRINCIPLE".. Well of course. PRINCIPLED people are used to losing in politics. My LP has been 30 years AHEAD of policy and politics in America. We nominated an openly gay man as our FIRST candidate for Prez in the 70s. We were in favor of ending the War on drugs and replacing it with prison reform, medical supervision, and RATIONAL sentencing decades ago. We were called faggot lovers and dopers back then. And when we spoke out against war in Iraq and clearly said that Saddam should be let out of containment and the daily bombing of Iraq should end -- we were called ____ well you get the picture..

In those issues and in asset forfeiture, education choice, and ending corporate/govt collusion -- we've never changed. But America has consistently moved closer to our principles.

As far as the SupCt nominations you felt were too sensitive to jeopardize with trusting to a person without an R or D after their name. I was only saying that 2 moderate governors would likely choose a candidate that modeled America's values over the extreme PARTISAN values that you would get with a partisan party power whore. The kinda choice --- you prefer to follow over the cliff..

This election will help us. Since we're not afraid of losing. We can't. We are what we are. And even getting 10 or 15% in most states will save us $MILLs of dollars on ballot access for the next round. And MAYBE open up the American political process so that it is NOT the "duopoly" that the OP is talking about. We are looking forward, not to gain POWER --- but to present a clear clear choice to the electorate. We won't ever pander for votes.

 

[Moonglow]

Who is running on the Bull Moose ticket?

 

[flacaltenn]

The libertarian party platform places no trust in government or elected officials. . Instead, it entrusts corporations and unelected leaders with the steering wheel.

It demands that government stay out of contractual agreements between individuals or other entities.....which ignores the fact that contracts don't exist without government's ability to enforce them.

Fun stuff. But not practical.

This is the type of general ignorance that is gonna DISAPPEAR once the process is OPENED to 3rd parties.. Too many people spouting off crap like "... it entrusts corporations and unelected leaders with the steering wheel":.

Here's a bit of reality for you.. Libertarian politicians have ALWAYS been adamant about COMPLETELY de-rooting Corporate welfare and handouts. You will not find people or candidates more signed up to do that job. NOTHING that exists on the markets already should be subsidize for corporations. The government should NEVER be picking winners and losers in the marketplace. THAT'S where the corporate -- govt collusion starts. And WE -- unlike your pansy 2 parties would end all that tomorrow. We are COMPLETELY in agreement with Bernie on those plans..

Sorry. The platform is clear. No PA laws. No Social Security. No regulations on health insurance providers. No pollution regulations.

It's a fantasy land where the public good is magically aligned with the profit motive.....and corporations do the right thing for society out of self interest.

It isn't practical. Go ahead and get pissy about it.

No one EVER said that SS is off the table. Certainly not for those who are expecting it. But the American public needs to know that the SS shortfalls are a MAJOR component of the yearly deficit right now. We are IN the crisis that everyone knew was coming 30 years ago. And instead of bleeding $15 to $30Bill a year right now, we could have REDUCED that substantially while the fund was running surpluses --- by stopping Congress from STEALING from it.

Pollution reduction would IMPROVE -- if plant operators were allowed to make INCREMENTAL changes to their plants -- rather than being required to incorporate in EVERY damn change if they apply for PERMISSION to make changes. And the states are MORE than capable of litigating pollution cases. In fact -- their motivations are HIGHER than having the litigation centered at the Federal level. Storm run-off is a great example. Laws written for highly developed, highly URBAN states cost other states $BILLs per year to comply to "one size fits all" edicts from up high..