The Truth about Mormons

[JakeStarkey]

You are leaving out the truth that most marriages in that day and age did not occur that young.

You believe in a counter-conspiracy theory that LDS marriage patterns followed the norm from the 1840s to the 1880s, particularly in the plural marriages, and that is where this argument goes. Even if your contention about first marriages is true (it is not), that is a red herring to distract from the plural marriages, which is the issue here.

Sorry, but that's how it is.

 

[daws101]

You are leaving out the truth that most marriages in that day and age did not occur that young.

You believe in a counter-conspiracy theory that LDS marriage patterns followed the norm from the 1840s to the 1880s, particularly in the plural marriages, and that is where this argument goes. Even if your contention about first marriages is true (it is not), that is a red herring to distract from the plural marriages, which is the issue here.

Sorry, but that's how it is.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are leaving out the truth that most marriages in that day and age did not occur that young.

You believe in a counter-conspiracy theory that LDS marriage patterns followed the norm from the 1840s to the 1880s, particularly in the plural marriages, and that is where this argument goes. Even if your contention about first marriages is true (it is not), that is a red herring to distract from the plural marriages, which is the issue here.

Sorry, but that's how it is.

Good reads disproving Daws can be found at

Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage by B Carmon Hardy ...

Doing the Works of Abraham, Mormon Polygamy: Its Origin, Practice, and Demise B Carmon Hardy . . . .

In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith Todd Compton

 

[Avatar4321]

I would like a full explaination of why Mormans baptise dead people of other faiths and of people who claimed an avout disbelief in a god. I would like to know how Mormans do not see this practice as disrepect for others views and wishes.

Christ stated that unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Baptism is the entry way into the Kingdom because it is a symbolization of the death of the old sinner and rebirth in Christ of becoming a new Person. It's also signifies an acceptance of the covenants we make God to accept Jesus Christ, to remember Him and Keep His commandments. And by doing so God promises to give us the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yet, there is an obvious dilemna here. If we can only enter into the Kingdom of Heaven through Baptism, then what about all those people who died without hearing the Gospel in this life? God is not unjust. He gives them the same opportunities we have.

The time between our deaths and resurrection is a time where missionary work will continue among the dead. When Christ died on the cross, he went to the Spirit world and preached the Spirits who were held in captivity between death and resurrection. Peter talked about this in First Peter where he testified that "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)

We've learned more specifics about what Christ did during the three days between His death and resurrection in D&C 138:

6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

So Christ organized the righteous to preach liberty to those who had not had the chance to repent on earth, those who had not heard the Gospel and those who sinned as those who were lost in the flood as Peter mentioned. But we still have this issue of Baptism being necessary. So how is this reconciled?

Through baptism for the dead. As Christ acted as a proxy taking on the transgression for our sins, so we are called to act as proxies to be baptized on behalf of those who cannot be baptized for themselves. Many of those who had no chance to do so in this life or who were mislead and decieved in this life and thus didn't have a chance to enter into the covenant with God.

We do this on their behalf so they can have a choice whether to accept it or reject it if they choose to. And doing so we reaffirm our testimonies of the resurrection. For as Paul stated "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor 15:29). Our actions are pointless without our faith in the resurrection. If there is no resurrection, nothing we do matters. If there is a resurrection, it's very clear why we do it, so that those who have passed on before us can likewise have hope through Christ as we do.

I know that was a bit long winded, but it's not exactly a quick topic. If you want to know more about the practice I suggest reading the revelations Joseph Smith Jr recieved that are D&C 127 and D&C 128.

 

[daws101]

You are leaving out the truth that most marriages in that day and age did not occur that young.

You believe in a counter-conspiracy theory that LDS marriage patterns followed the norm from the 1840s to the 1880s, particularly in the plural marriages, and that is where this argument goes. Even if your contention about first marriages is true (it is not), that is a red herring to distract from the plural marriages, which is the issue here.

Sorry, but that's how it is.

Good reads disproving Daws can be found at

Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage by B Carmon Hardy ...

Doing the Works of Abraham, Mormon Polygamy: Its Origin, Practice, and Demise B Carmon Hardy . . . .

"In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" Todd Compton

these are mormon writers?

 

[daws101]

I would like a full explaination of why Mormans baptise dead people of other faiths and of people who claimed an avout disbelief in a god. I would like to know how Mormans do not see this practice as disrepect for others views and wishes.

Christ stated that unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Baptism is the entry way into the Kingdom because it is a symbolization of the death of the old sinner and rebirth in Christ of becoming a new Person. It's also signifies an acceptance of the covenants we make God to accept Jesus Christ, to remember Him and Keep His commandments. And by doing so God promises to give us the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yet, there is an obvious dilemna here. If we can only enter into the Kingdom of Heaven through Baptism, then what about all those people who died without hearing the Gospel in this life? God is not unjust. He gives them the same opportunities we have.

The time between our deaths and resurrection is a time where missionary work will continue among the dead. When Christ died on the cross, he went to the Spirit world and preached the Spirits who were held in captivity between death and resurrection. Peter talked about this in First Peter where he testified that "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)

We've learned more specifics about what Christ did during the three days between His death and resurrection in D&C 138:

6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

So Christ organized the righteous to preach liberty to those who had not had the chance to repent on earth, those who had not heard the Gospel and those who sinned as those who were lost in the flood as Peter mentioned. But we still have this issue of Baptism being necessary. So how is this reconciled?

Through baptism for the dead. As Christ acted as a proxy taking on the transgression for our sins, so we are called to act as proxies to be baptized on behalf of those who cannot be baptized for themselves. Many of those who had no chance to do so in this life or who were mislead and decieved in this life and thus didn't have a chance to enter into the covenant with God.

We do this on their behalf so they can have a choice whether to accept it or reject it if they choose to. And doing so we reaffirm our testimonies of the resurrection. For as Paul stated "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor 15:29). Our actions are pointless without our faith in the resurrection. If there is no resurrection, nothing we do matters. If there is a resurrection, it's very clear why we do it, so that those who have passed on before us can likewise have hope through Christ as we do.

I know that was a bit long winded, but it's not exactly a quick topic. If you want to know more about the practice I suggest reading the revelations Joseph Smith Jr recieved that are D&C 127 and D&C 128.

where I come from we call that rationalizing

 

[JakeStarkey]

Todd is a temple-going LDS writer and historian of renown.

Carmon is a former Stake President and historian who voluntarily left the LDS church many years.

I am sure you have read of Richard L. Bushman? Read his church-renowned Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling .

The fact is this: plural marriage relationships in age dynamics among the LDS and other polygamous Mormon sects have always been dysfunctional in relation to non-LDS marriages in American history.

 

[daws101]

Todd is a temple-going LDS writer and historian of renown.

Carmon is a former Stake President and historian who voluntarily left the LDS church many years.

I am sure you have read of Richard L. Bushman? Read his church-renowned Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling .

The fact is this: plural marriage relationships in age dynamics among the LDS and other polygamous Mormon sects have always been dysfunctional in relation to non-LDS marriages in American history.

so their writing is far from objective.?

 

[Avatar4321]

well thanks, but I was a mormon, first hand experience and all that!

You'd be amazed how many people have told me that who have been lying through their teeth or completely ignorant of what the Church actually taught. Not saying you are one. But it happens more often than I'd like to see.

you're right I'm not one.
but that's off topic at least in this part of the thread the point was did the founders of the LDS church have sex with under age females, the answer is yes they did.
that makes them no different than any other 19th century Christian group ,since the average marring age was between 13-16 years for women and 17 to 20 for men at the time.
the rub came in this thread when the "Mormons" denied it,either directly or indirectly.

problem is there is no evidence of that. As Im sure any married man can attest to, just because you are married doesnt mean there is any sex. Absent children or eye witness testimony, there cant be any evidence.

Not to mention it completely fails to address that in the Church marriage can occur for 1) Time
2) Time & Eternity, or just for 3) Eternity. And while it's not common nowadays among the living, at the beginning of the Restoration there were many of the plural marriages which were merely sealings for Eternity and had absolutely no binding in mortality and which provided none of the marital benefits of mortality.

It's possible that some of the plural marriages were consumated. But there is no evidence of it. Especially not with "underage girls" which you have pointed out were quite of age for the time period.

 

[Avatar4321]

Without appearing "silly"...What is the TRUTH about the underwear?

In short, they are a symbolic reminder of the covenants we make when we enter into the Endowment covenants in the Temple. Nothing magic about it. Nor have I ever see anyone but critics who want to sensationally attack the Church claim otherwise. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some mormon made some comment sometimes to give them reason to.

 

[daws101]

You'd be amazed how many people have told me that who have been lying through their teeth or completely ignorant of what the Church actually taught. Not saying you are one. But it happens more often than I'd like to see.

you're right I'm not one.
but that's off topic at least in this part of the thread the point was did the founders of the LDS church have sex with under age females, the answer is yes they did.
that makes them no different than any other 19th century Christian group ,since the average marring age was between 13-16 years for women and 17 to 20 for men at the time.
the rub came in this thread when the "Mormons" denied it,either directly or indirectly.

problem is there is no evidence of that. As Im sure any married man can attest to, just because you are married doesnt mean there is any sex. Absent children or eye witness testimony, there cant be any evidence.

Not to mention it completely fails to address that in the Church marriage can occur for 1) Time
2) Time & Eternity, or just for 3) Eternity. And while it's not common nowadays among the living, at the beginning of the Restoration there were many of the plural marriages which were merely sealings for Eternity and had absolutely no binding in mortality and which provided none of the marital benefits of mortality.

It's possible that some of the plural marriages were consumated. But there is no evidence of it. Especially not with "underage girls" which you have pointed out were quite of age for the time period.

so you're going with the old if nobody saw it or more accurately if nobody talked about it,it did'nt happen ploy .
the "absent children" statement does not wash...why ? simple "how do you know who your daddy was because your mama said so" old southern saying.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Todd is a temple-going LDS writer and historian of renown.

Carmon is a former Stake President and historian who voluntarily left the LDS church many years.

I am sure you have read of Richard L. Bushman? Read his church-renowned Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling .

The fact is this: plural marriage relationships in age dynamics among the LDS and other polygamous Mormon sects have always been dysfunctional in relation to non-LDS marriages in American history.

so their writing is far from objective.?

The writings of Bushman (loved by the LDS authorities and hierarchy), Compton (respected by historians pro- anti- and neutral), and Hardy (considered by all the best historian of the three) are, yes, very objective.

You have not read any of the three.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You'd be amazed how many people have told me that who have been lying through their teeth or completely ignorant of what the Church actually taught. Not saying you are one. But it happens more often than I'd like to see.

you're right I'm not one.
but that's off topic at least in this part of the thread the point was did the founders of the LDS church have sex with under age females, the answer is yes they did.
that makes them no different than any other 19th century Christian group ,since the average marring age was between 13-16 years for women and 17 to 20 for men at the time.
the rub came in this thread when the "Mormons" denied it,either directly or indirectly.

problem is there is no evidence of that. As Im sure any married man can attest to, just because you are married doesnt mean there is any sex. Absent children or eye witness testimony, there cant be any evidence.

Not to mention it completely fails to address that in the Church marriage can occur for 1) Time
2) Time & Eternity, or just for 3) Eternity. And while it's not common nowadays among the living, at the beginning of the Restoration there were many of the plural marriages which were merely sealings for Eternity and had absolutely no binding in mortality and which provided none of the marital benefits of mortality.

It's possible that some of the plural marriages were consummated. But there is no evidence of it. Especially not with "underage girls" which you have pointed out were quite of age for the time period.

Horse crap, Avatar. Bushman, Compton, Hardy, Johnson, Bennett, and on and on and on, will all disagree with you. Plural marriages by General Authorities (many of them, including some of Smith's) were consummated.

Those who are knowledgeable about these matters have watched with disbelief at the growing disinformation by non-scholars, such as yourself, who, despite the journals, diaries, and commentaries of leading authorities of the LDS church, suggest that plural marriage was not all that big of a deal.

If you insist it isn't, and since I know you are a smart person, your disbelief of the obvious is willful. That's a shame.

You begin your education here http://www.lds.org/search?lang=eng&query=smith+plural+marriage

 

[HUGGY]

I would like a full explaination of why Mormans baptise dead people of other faiths and of people who claimed an avout disbelief in a god. I would like to know how Mormans do not see this practice as disrepect for others views and wishes.

Christ stated that unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, He cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Baptism is the entry way into the Kingdom because it is a symbolization of the death of the old sinner and rebirth in Christ of becoming a new Person. It's also signifies an acceptance of the covenants we make God to accept Jesus Christ, to remember Him and Keep His commandments. And by doing so God promises to give us the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Yet, there is an obvious dilemna here. If we can only enter into the Kingdom of Heaven through Baptism, then what about all those people who died without hearing the Gospel in this life? God is not unjust. He gives them the same opportunities we have.

The time between our deaths and resurrection is a time where missionary work will continue among the dead. When Christ died on the cross, he went to the Spirit world and preached the Spirits who were held in captivity between death and resurrection. Peter talked about this in First Peter where he testified that "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6)

We've learned more specifics about what Christ did during the three days between His death and resurrection in D&C 138:

6 I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter, and as I read I was greatly impressed, more than I had ever been before, with the following passages:

7 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 “Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

10 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” (1 Peter 4:6.)

11 As I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me, and I saw the hosts of the dead, both small and great.

12 And there were gathered together in one place an innumerable company of the spirits of the just, who had been faithful in the testimony of Jesus while they lived in mortality;

13 And who had offered sacrifice in the similitude of the great sacrifice of the Son of God, and had suffered tribulation in their Redeemer’s name.

14 All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.

15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness, and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand.

16 They were assembled awaiting the advent of the Son of God into the spirit world, to declare their redemption from the bands of death.

17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

18 While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared, declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful;

19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.

20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;

21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

22 Where these were, darkness reigned, but among the righteous there was peace;

23 And the saints rejoiced in their redemption, and bowed the knee and acknowledged the Son of God as their Redeemer and Deliverer from death and the chains of hell.

24 Their countenances shone, and the radiance from the presence of the Lord rested upon them, and they sang praises unto his holy name.

25 I marveled, for I understood that the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the house of Israel, endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them unto repentance;

26 And yet, notwithstanding his mighty works, and miracles, and proclamation of the truth, in great power and authority, there were but few who hearkened to his voice, and rejoiced in his presence, and received salvation at his hands.

27 But his ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection;

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

36 Thus was it made known that our Redeemer spent his time during his sojourn in the world of spirits, instructing and preparing the faithful spirits of the prophets who had testified of him in the flesh;

So Christ organized the righteous to preach liberty to those who had not had the chance to repent on earth, those who had not heard the Gospel and those who sinned as those who were lost in the flood as Peter mentioned. But we still have this issue of Baptism being necessary. So how is this reconciled?

Through baptism for the dead. As Christ acted as a proxy taking on the transgression for our sins, so we are called to act as proxies to be baptized on behalf of those who cannot be baptized for themselves. Many of those who had no chance to do so in this life or who were mislead and decieved in this life and thus didn't have a chance to enter into the covenant with God.

We do this on their behalf so they can have a choice whether to accept it or reject it if they choose to. And doing so we reaffirm our testimonies of the resurrection. For as Paul stated "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" (1 Cor 15:29). Our actions are pointless without our faith in the resurrection. If there is no resurrection, nothing we do matters. If there is a resurrection, it's very clear why we do it, so that those who have passed on before us can likewise have hope through Christ as we do.

I know that was a bit long winded, but it's not exactly a quick topic. If you want to know more about the practice I suggest reading the revelations Joseph Smith Jr recieved that are D&C 127 and D&C 128.

So what you are saying is that the only way somebody can protect their corpse from a further degradation than death is to hire a hit man to cap any of you whack jobs that think they have the right to sneak up on your dead body and mumble some mumbo jumbo over your remains. I'll get right on that. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Avatar4321]

so you're going with the old if nobody saw it or more accurately if nobody talked about it,it did'nt happen ploy .
the "absent children" statement does not wash...why ? simple "how do you know who your daddy was because your mama said so" old southern saying.

No. Im saying if no one saw it or talked about it, we have no evidence.

The only other way to know is if there were children. Which there are none.

 

[Avatar4321]

Horse crap, Avatar. Bushman, Compton, Hardy, Johnson, Bennett, and on and on and on, will all disagree with you. Plural marriages by General Authorities (many of them, including some of Smith's) were consummated.

Those who are knowledgeable about these matters have watched with disbelief at the growing disinformation by non-scholars, such as yourself, who, despite the journals, diaries, and commentaries of leading authorities of the LDS church, suggest that plural marriage was not all that big of a deal.

If you insist it isn't, and since I know you are a smart person, your disbelief of the obvious is willful. That's a shame.

You begin your education here The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Search

There is no evidence Joseph Smith ever consumated a single plural marriage. And I find it amazing you are simply assuming i know nothing about it. Never said anything about Brigham or other General Authorities after the practice was well known. But then they arent ever the ones accused of going after "underage girls"

 

[Avatar4321]

So what you are saying is that the only way somebody can protect their corpse from a further degradation than death is to hire a hit man to cap any of you whack jobs that think they have the right to sneak up on your dead body and mumble some mumbo jumbo over your remains. I'll get right on that. Thanks for the heads up!

No dead bodies are involved. I would think that's obvious.

 

[JoeB131]

I would like a full explaination of why Mormans baptise dead people of other faiths and of people who claimed an avout disbelief in a god. I would like to know how Mormans do not see this practice as disrepect for others views and wishes.

You mean like Mitt's father in law....

 

[daws101]

I would like a full explaination of why Mormans baptise dead people of other faiths and of people who claimed an avout disbelief in a god. I would like to know how Mormans do not see this practice as disrepect for others views and wishes.

You mean like Mitt's father in law....

and several million other non mormons.
Here's a bit of irony, I once said to our bishop "isn't it wrong to baptize other people into this faith after they're dead"?
he said "they'er dead and won't care.
odd as the Mormon's believe the soul survives death!!!!

 

[JakeStarkey]

You ask for testimony.

3. But did Joseph Smith obey the commandment and have sex with his wives?

Compton writes: "Because of claims by Reorganized Latter-day Saints that Joseph was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Joseph's wives) affirmed repeatedly that Joseph had physical sexual relations with his plural wives-despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American religion which otherwise would have prevented mention of sexual relations in marriage."

- Faithful Mormon Melissa Lott (Smith Willes) testified that she had been Joseph's wife "in very deed." (Affidavit of Melissa Willes, 3 Aug. 1893, Temple Lot case, 98, 105; Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 156.)

- In a court affidavit, faithful Mormon Joseph Noble wrote that Joseph told him he had spent the night with Louisa Beaman. (Temple Lot Case, 427)

- Emily D. Partridge (Smith Young) said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him. (Temple Lot case (complete transcript), 364, 367, 384; see Foster, Religion and Sexuality, 15.)

joseph smithIn total, 13 faithful latter-day saint women who were married to Joseph Smith swore court affidavits that they had sexual relations with him.

- Joseph Smith's personal secretary records that on May 22nd, 1843, Smith's first wife Emma found Joseph and Eliza Partridge secluded in an upstairs bedroom at the Smith home. Emma was devastated.
(William Clayton's journal entry for 23 May (see Smith, 105-106)

- Smith's secretary William Clayton also recorded a visit to young Almera Johnson on May 16, 1843: "Prest. Joseph and I went to B[enjamin] F. Johnsons to sleep." Johnson himself later noted that on this visit Smith stayed with Almera "as man and wife" and "occupied the same room and bed with my sister, that the previous month he had occupied with the daughter of the late Bishop Partridge as his wife." Almera Johnson also confirmed her secret marriage to Joseph Smith: "I lived with the prophet Joseph as his wife and he visited me at the home of my brother Benjamin F." (Zimmerman, I Knew the Prophets, 44. See also "The Origin of Plural Marriage, Joseph F. Smith, Jr., Deseret News Press, page 70-71.)

- Faithful Mormon and Stake President Angus Cannon told Joseph Smith's son: "Brother Heber C. Kimball, I am informed, asked [Eliza R. Snow] the question if she was not a virgin although married to Joseph Smith and afterwards to Brigham Young, when she replied in a private gathering, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that."" (Stake President Angus M. Cannon, statement of interview with Joseph III, 23, LDS archives.)

Joseph Smith Polygamy Sex LDS Mormon