The Truth about Mormons

[no1tovote4]

I honestly don't have the patience to read all that. It is undoubtedly more of the same jargon as before. I skimmed through it and all I really needed to see is that you think because of the Old Testament fulfillment of the Law of Moses, YOU think that there are no prophets today. But you claim God is the same yesterday today and forever. You still never answered my scripture from Amos 3:7 which states that "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secrets to his servants the prophets."
You dodge topics all day long and jump to something else. Can't we just agree to disagree? You don't like us, you don't like our teachings so that's fine, you won't convince me and I won't convince you so let's go our separate ways.

I'll shorten it for you.

[synopsis]

First it was clear that he spoke of the portion that speaks of being "born again", and how Jesus explained to Nicodemus and the Samaritan woman at the well.

Then he explained that Jesus tore the veil placed between individuals and their Creator. That all can access Christ's forgiveness and therefore any religion that hides portions in secrecy is not of God, but of those who set up the religion.

[/synopsis]

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[chloe]

why didnt jesus have a religion?

 

[B94]

Truthspeaker

Is it true that Joseph Smith killed 2 people by shooting them as stated here by John Taylor ? -

He, however, instantly arose, and with a firm, quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, approached the door, and pulling the six-shooter left by Brother Whellock from his pocket, opened the door slightly, and snapped the pistol six successive times; only three of the barrels, however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, two of whom, I am informed died

(History of the Church, vol. 7, pp.102-3)

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truthspeaker

Is it true that Joseph Smith killed 2 people by shooting them as stated here by John Taylor ? -

(History of the Church, vol. 7, pp.102-3)

I believe it is true. Good for Joseph, I wish he would have shot a few more.

 

[sky dancer]

I believe it is true. Good for Joseph, I wish he would have shot a few more.

Really? You wish Joseph Smith would have killed more people? Is that what 'saints' do? Kill people?

 

[Eightball]

I believe it is true. Good for Joseph, I wish he would have shot a few more.

Not the true definition of a "martyr" either.

By the way, how did Joseph Smith carry 230 lbs of gold plates and even run with them?

He was known to have had surgery years before on his leg, and didn't have a strong leg to stand on.

Also, as I understand, the American Indian when converted to Mormonism is supposed to go through a skin color change and become white, like a typical caucasian.

Why is it that the BOM has had atleast 4,000 changes since 1830?

Why did some of the witnesses to the Golden Plates end up being removed from the church?

Why is their Greek words, and even a french word in the BOM?

Did Joseph Smith Jr. get arrested in N.Y. under the vagrancy laws that included seers, treasure hunters, etc.?

Why did Joseph Smith Jr. get jailed in the Carthage Jail. What had he done.

Why does the church liken Joseph Smith Jr.'s martyrdom to Jesus Christs? Did Jesus try to escape or fight it out with his accusers, and even kill some of them?

Christians in the Roman Colloseum went to their deaths without a fight.

Stephen a member of the early Christian church was stoned to death for his Christian faith, and didn't fight back, but actually prayed for his accusers.

Paul took whippings, and all kinds of incarceration for his faith, but never once fought his captors, nor killed or hurt anyone. He willingly submitted to the govermental authorities.

 

[ABikerSailor]

why didnt jesus have a religion?

Yeshua (Jesus) did have a religion. He was Jewish. Matter of fact, that is the reason He was in Jerusalem when He was crucified, He was there to celebrate Passover.

He debated with rabbis in the Temple, He did a lot of things, and was pretty observant also.

 

[Truthspeaker]

No, you have not.........and you know it too.

You've done what most Mormons do when confronted with biblical truth, or the truth about your founders.......You do the good old "side step" and evade the question.

You didn't read my posts because I know you couldn't have read through all the pages that fast. Therefore you remain in your ignorance of our faith. Please if you read my posts, prove it and tell me where I didn't address any of your questions.

 

[ABikerSailor]

You didn't read my posts because I know you couldn't have read through all the pages that fast. Therefore you remain in your ignorance of our faith. Please if you read my posts, prove it and tell me where I didn't address any of your questions.

Actually, the onus is on you Truthspeaker. If you know where it is, as well as if you were the person who wrote it, it is up to you to go back and find the number of the post that backs up your assertion.

Otherwise, you'll be forfeit the discussion on fouls.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Really? You wish Joseph Smith would have killed more people? Is that what 'saints' do? Kill people?

Please Sky, you must understand, he shot those people while defending himself and his fellow prisoners, one of them his brother, from an angry mob of anti-mormons who painted their faces black and murdered his brother before he shot them. I don't see what is wrong with this.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Please Sky, you must understand, he shot those people while defending himself and his fellow prisoners, one of them his brother, from an angry mob of anti-mormons who painted their faces black and murdered his brother before he shot them. I don't see what is wrong with this.

That sounded vaguely islamic in its delivery........

 

[Truthspeaker]

Truthspeaker--

Tell us about what you call modern day prophets? What are prophets?

We have 'tulkus' in our tradition. They are like spiritual geniuses. They incarnate with qualities already present as small children and they develop rapidly when they meditate.

Are prophets like this?

For us a prophet is a person that is the mouthpiece of God, much like moses was the mouthpiece of God for Israel at the time. Prophets have firsthand knowledge of the mind of god because they speak with him directly so there can be no doubt or confusion among the people. When the prophet speaks, we believe he is conveying the will of the Lord and not trying to take advantage of the people. Today the prophet would be Thomas S. Monson. He is truly a great spiritual leader and a wise and kind man who has a firm testimony of Jesus.

 

[Truthspeaker]

That sounded vaguely islamic in its delivery........

wow, unbelievable.

 

[sky dancer]

Please Sky, you must understand, he shot those people while defending himself and his fellow prisoners, one of them his brother, from an angry mob of anti-mormons who painted their faces black and murdered his brother before he shot them. I don't see what is wrong with this.

I think you wishing a saint could have killed MORE people is wrong, at least, it is to me, from my ethical perspective.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Nor is there any evidence that Jesus was the son of a god. Just faith. Go figure....

There actually is plenty of evidence of pre columbian transoceanic contact between the old world and the new world.
Response to the Smithsonian Institute Statement on the Book of Mormon

Response to the Smithsonian Institute Statement on the Book of Mormon

 

[Truthspeaker]

so did God make satan too?

God organized all the intelligences into their original forms. Some chose to disobey him and others to follow, but yes God did make Satan. He did not make him into what he is though.

 

[sky dancer]

How can Joseph Smith be considered a martyr when he offered resistance and killed two people?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Not the true definition of a "martyr" either.

By the way, how did Joseph Smith carry 230 lbs of gold plates and even run with them?

He was known to have had surgery years before on his leg, and didn't have a strong leg to stand on.

Also, as I understand, the American Indian when converted to Mormonism is supposed to go through a skin color change and become white, like a typical caucasian.

Why is it that the BOM has had atleast 4,000 changes since 1830?

Why did some of the witnesses to the Golden Plates end up being removed from the church?

Why is their Greek words, and even a french word in the BOM?

Did Joseph Smith Jr. get arrested in N.Y. under the vagrancy laws that included seers, treasure hunters, etc.?

Why did Joseph Smith Jr. get jailed in the Carthage Jail. What had he done.

Why does the church liken Joseph Smith Jr.'s martyrdom to Jesus Christs? Did Jesus try to escape or fight it out with his accusers, and even kill some of them?

Christians in the Roman Colloseum went to their deaths without a fight.

Stephen a member of the early Christian church was stoned to death for his Christian faith, and didn't fight back, but actually prayed for his accusers.

Paul took whippings, and all kinds of incarceration for his faith, but never once fought his captors, nor killed or hurt anyone. He willingly submitted to the govermental authorities.

Now this is not a bad list of questions. I have dealt with some but some are new.
As for the weight of the gold plates, please understand first that Joseph made a full recovery, a miracle in itself considering the surgery he went through and was known to be one of the strongest physical specimens in the state. He wrestled often and engaged in stick pulling, a test of strength back in the day. He was quite capable of lifting a whole person on his back and carrying them for some time as he demonstrated. We have all seen soldier running with deadweight humans on their backs in war. 250 pounds in a small block is much easier to lift than a human shape. However the plates were not as heavy as you make them out to be, there were many factors to consider. see this nifty link.
Metals, Weapons, and the Book of Mormon (Mormon Answers/LDSFAQ)

As for native americans undergoing a skin change that is a badly misinterpreted teaching and is false doctrine. It has been confused with the black skin curse temporarily placed on the seed of Laman in book of mormon times. That curse was lifted completely by the time of 3 Nephi, when there was described as "neither were there any manner of -ites, all being in one, the children of Christ." There has been an ungodly amount of confusion about race and skin color in Mormonism. I have already discussed it though in detail. Please read the whole thread and you will see it.

As for witnesses of the plates who left the church: None of them ever retracted their statements regarding what they saw, because of the fear of the Lord. It just goes to show that people say they want to see miracles and then they will follow God, but it's not seeing signs or wonders that saves you, it is making a lifelong commitment to God and keeping it. It is hard for everyone. Truly sad that some fell away.


As for changes in the book of mormon, this is a great question and deserves an equally great answer. See nifty link #2
LDS FAQ: Changes in the Book of Mormon

As for greek words and the french word adieu in the book, These were words that we borrow and use in engish and still understand. I think everyone knows the meaning of adieu who speaks english. Those words are still communicable in english and serve as a better translation as far as impact and meaning from the reformed egyptian. You could say farewell but it doesn't quite have the same formality and impact as adieu.

Next question. Joseph Smith was arrested many times because of false accusations but not once was ever convicted of a crime. He was each time acquitted.

He was incarcerated on charges of prohibiting freedom of the press when he ordered the destruction of the anti-mormon press that was calling for all of it's readers to "mobilize and rid ourselves of this Mormon plague. Let this issue be decided by powder and ball!"
Freedom of the press does not include the right to preach genocide and violence against a community. As Governer he was acting to keep the public peace. I believe he would have been acquitted again.

Joseph's martyrdom was definitely not equivalent to Jesus's. They were both voluntary as Joseph decided not to run from arrest and knew he would be slain, but just because he fought back doesn't take away his martyrdom.
Jesus was completely passive because he had a different mission. To submit to every affliction. Joseph was not required nor are we required to do what Jesus did. There was a totally different set of circumstances and nothing comes close to the sacrifice of Christ.
definition of martyrdom:
The term martyr (Greek μάρτυς martys "witness") is most commonly used today to describe an individual who sacrifices his or her life (or personal freedom) in order to further a cause or belief for many. Long ago, it initially signified a witness in the forensic sense, a person called to bear witness in legal proceedings. With this meaning it was used in the secular sphere as well as in both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible.[1] The process of bearing witness was not intended to lead to the death of the witness, although it is known from ancient writers (e.g. Josephus) that witnesses, especially of the lower classes, were tortured routinely before being interrogated as a means of forcing them to disclose the truth. During the early Christian centuries the term acquired the extended meaning of a believer who is called to witness for his or her religious belief and on account of this witness endures suffering and death. In the English language, the term is a loanword, and often used with the extended meaning of someone who has been killed for his religious belief. The death of a martyr or the value attributed to it is called martyrdom.

Just because some may have not fought back doesn't mean that when they were cast into the middle to fight for their lives against lions or crocodiles that others didn't fight back. It is okay to fight for your life and still be a martyr. I don't know why you think passive death is required but you are wrong.

You cannot possibly answer back in less than a day because of the amount of reading required to finish in those links, so don't pretend you read them by responding back today. I will no longer answer you at that point as you will be exposed as a liar.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I think you wishing a saint could have killed MORE people is wrong, at least, it is to me, from my ethical perspective.

Well I respect your opinion but my view is different. The Book of Mormon says we should"defend your families even unto bloodshed."
Which I wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[Truthspeaker]

How can Joseph Smith be considered a martyr when he offered resistance and killed two people?

A martyr is not required to not offer resistance.
The term martyr (Greek μάρτυς martys "witness") is most commonly used today to describe an individual who sacrifices his or her life (or personal freedom) in order to further a cause or belief for many. Long ago, it initially signified a witness in the forensic sense, a person called to bear witness in legal proceedings. With this meaning it was used in the secular sphere as well as in both the Old Testament and the New Testament of the Bible.[1] The process of bearing witness was not intended to lead to the death of the witness, although it is known from ancient writers (e.g. Josephus) that witnesses, especially of the lower classes, were tortured routinely before being interrogated as a means of forcing them to disclose the truth. During the early Christian centuries the term acquired the extended meaning of a believer who is called to witness for his or her religious belief and on account of this witness endures suffering and death. In the English language, the term is a loanword, and often used with the extended meaning of someone who has been killed for his religious belief. The death of a martyr or the value attributed to it is called martyrdom.