The Truth about Mormons

[Eightball]

You are ill man. seriously weird.

There is a sickness indigenous to man.......Pride?

Does it ring a bell of familiarity?

If I'm ill because I believe the Word of God/bible is complete, and totally capable of directing man's ways, and instructing him in the way to go and how he must make a finality to his pursuit to God through the redeeming blood, and sacrificed life of Christ, who does not have a spiritual brother named Satan, and is God, as He succinctly stated to those ready to stone Him to death for Blasphemy(claiming to be God)..............Then yes, I'm ill; very, very, ill. And very very humbly glad to be ill in that way.

 

[Skeptik]

There is a sickness indigenous to man.......Pride?

Does it ring a bell of familiarity?

If I'm ill because I believe the Word of God/bible is complete, and totally capable of directing man's ways, and instructing him in the way to go and how he must make a finality to his pursuit to God through the redeeming blood, and sacrificed life of Christ, who does not have a spiritual brother named Satan, and is God, as He succinctly stated to those ready to stone Him to death for Blasphemy(claiming to be God)..............Then yes, I'm ill; very, very, ill. And very very humbly glad to be ill in that way.

Do you think you know more about Mormonism that Truthspeaker does? That's all he is saying, isn't it, that someone who is a part of the faith knows more about it than someone who is not?

As for the Bible....

Are you really going to assert that the Bible is the complete word of God?

Are you aware of the history of how the modern Bible came to be?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Standard response when you're out of arguments.

Truthspeaker, you're full of shit.

Again I am not arguing my religion over someone elses. This thread is about the truth of what we believe, I have already defended all attacks and you and 8-ball are only on this thread to insult me and mormonism. Not to learn anything about the truth of what we believe.

 

[Truthspeaker]

There is a sickness indigenous to man.......Pride?

Does it ring a bell of familiarity? So i guess I should learn from you, the master of all humility.

If I'm ill because I believe the Word of God/bible is complete, and totally capable of directing man's ways, and instructing him in the way to go and how he must make a finality to his pursuit to God through the redeeming blood, and sacrificed life of Christ, who does not have a spiritual brother named Satan, and is God, as He succinctly stated to those ready to stone Him to death for Blasphemy(claiming to be God)..............Then yes, I'm ill; very, very, ill. And very very humbly glad to be ill in that way.

Believe what you want and I respect your beliefs. but to say that god cannot or would not ever speak anything new that is not in the bible is both arrogant and ignorant. Had you done research on the chronologically last written book of the Bible you would have known that the book of John was the last to be written. Interesting that individuals responsible for putting together the bible decided not to put the book in chronological order. I think they were afraid that putting the book of John last would have destroyed their craft. Take a gander at the last verse of John which would be John 21:25. It reads And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

Instead the "scholars" in charge of putting together the bible into it's current cannon decided to end with REvelation 22:19-21, verse 19 was misinterpreted to mean that no more books can come. "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Are you kidding? John was clearly talking about the book of Revelation only. Otherwise we cannot accept most of the New Testament. It is abundantly clear that God would continue to communicate with his children rather than just abandon them.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Believe what you want and I respect your beliefs. but to say that god cannot or would not ever speak anything new that is not in the bible is both arrogant and ignorant. Had you done research on the chronologically last written book of the Bible you would have known that the book of John was the last to be written. Interesting that individuals responsible for putting together the bible decided not to put the book in chronological order. I think they were afraid that putting the book of John last would have destroyed their craft. Take a gander at the last verse of John which would be John 21:25. It reads And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.

Instead the "scholars" in charge of putting together the bible into it's current cannon decided to end with REvelation 22:19-21, verse 19 was misinterpreted to mean that no more books can come. "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Are you kidding? John was clearly talking about the book of Revelation only. Otherwise we cannot accept most of the New Testament. It is abundantly clear that God would continue to communicate with his children rather than just abandon them.

For such a devout believer in God, you sure as hell don't realize that you're supposed to capitalize His Name everytime.

But......I'm sure you knew that, as you've told us time and again how gifted you are with noticing the details.

Second question........Do you capitalize moroni's name all the time, or just some of the time?

 

[AllieBaba]

Is the thing about capitalizing God's name in the bible somewhere?

 

[ABikerSailor]

Yeah.....it is......we are told to be respectful of Father at all times.

 

[Skeptik]

I believe god refers to any deity, while God refers to one's personal god.

 

[KittenKoder]

The word god is a title of position not a name.

 

[Eightball]

Actually various translations capitalize "God" and others don't. The NIV doesn't normally, but the NASB does, and I'd assume the KJV that the Mormons semi-respect, but consider corrupted like the others does capitalize references to God, also. I.E. His, Him, Lord, God, Himself, Emanuel, Adonai, Jehovah, Jesus,

 

[Eightball]

The Temple Endowment Ceremony
Masonic Roots of Mormonism..

This is an excerpt from an article by Mark Hines, M.A.

Some Mormons do not realize that their temple Endowment ceremony was copied directly from rites in Masonry. The Mormon temple ceremony has no connection whatsoever with Christianity. On March 15, 1842, Joe Smith became an Entered Apprentice Mason, and the next day he became a Master Mason. The usual thirty-day wait between degrees was waived by Abraham Jonas, Grandmaster of the Illinois Lodge.

Joe Smith admitted to being a Mason in his History of the Church (vol. 4, p. 551).

Under the date of March 15, 1842 his entry is, "In the evening I received the first degree in Free Masonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office" (History of the Church vol. 4, p. 551).

The very next day he noted becoming a Master Mason, "I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree" (Ibid., p. 552).

Dr. Reed Durham, who was president of the Mormon History Association, noted:

"There is absolutely no question in my mind that the Mormon ceremony which came to be known as the Endowment, introduced by Joseph Smith to Mormon Masons, had an immediate inspiration from Masonry. It is also obvious that the Nauvoo Temple architecture was in part, at least, Masonically influenced. Indeed, it appears that there was an intentional attempt to utilize Masonic symbols and motifs. . . ." (Mormon Miscellaneous, pub. David C. Martin, October, 1975, pp. 11-16).

Less than two months after becoming a Master Mason, Joe Smith introduced the Endowment ceremony. For the Endowment ceremony, Joe Smith copied Masonic rites from a book called Freemasonry Exposed (1827) by William Morgan. When one compares the Nauvoo ceremony with the Masonic rite in Morgan's book, one easily sees the Masonic influence on the Mormon rite. The two rites resemble each other to the point of being identical at places. Morgan's account was an exposé of his local York Rite's "Craft" degrees.

One can easily see the similarities between Masonic and Mormon rites. The penalty for revealing the First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, Smith copied from the penalty of disclosing the first degree (Entered Apprentice) of Freemasonry.

Mormon text: "We, and each of us, covenant and promise that we will not reveal any of the secrets of this, the first token of the Aaronic priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign or penalty. Should we do so, we agree that our throats be cut from ear to ear and our tongues torn out by their roots" (W. M. Paden, Temple Mormonism, 1931, p. 18).

Mason text: "I will . . . never reveal any part or parts, art or arts, point or points of the secret arts and mysteries of ancient Freemasonry . . . binding myself under no less penalty than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the roots. . . ." (William Morgan, Freemasonry Exposed, 1827, pp. 21-22)

Compare the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood with the Second Degree (Fellow Craft) oath:

Mormon text: "We and each of us do covenant and promise that we will not reveal the secrets of this, the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood, with its accompanying name, sign, grip, or penalty. Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field" (Paden, p. 20)

Mason text: "I . . . most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear . . . that I will not give the degree of a Fellow Craft Mason to any one of an inferior degree, nor to any other being in the known world . . . binding myself under no less penalty than to have my left breast torn open and my heart and vitals taken from thence . . . to become a prey to the wild beasts of the field, and vulture of the air. . . ." (Morgan, p. 52).

Besides similar penalties, there are also similar signs, arm positions, ear whisperings, passwords and handgrips. For instance, compare the "First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood" grip with the "First Degree" Masonic grip:

Mormon text:
Peter - "What is that?"
Adam - "The first token of the Aaronic Priesthood."
Peter - "Has it a name?"
Adam - "It has."
Peter - "Will you give it to me?"
Adam - "I can not, for it is connected with my new name, but this is the sign" (Paden, p. 20).

Mason text:
"What is this?"
Ans. "A grip."
"A grip of what?"
Ans. "The grip of an Entered Apprentice Mason."
"Has it a name?"
Ans. "It has."
"Will you give it to me?"
Ans. "I did not so receive it, neither can I so impart it." (Morgan, pp. 23-24).

Joe Smith copied the Mormon Endowment ceremony directly from the Blue Lodge degrees of Freemasonry, and he borrowed Masonic symbolism, such as the Masonic markings on underwear Mormons wear. Over the right breast in Mormon underwear is a carpenter's square, and over the left, a mason's compass. The opening at the navel is symbolic of the evisceration penalty for disclosing Mormon secrets. Mormons are taught that their underwear, and in particular its Masonic markings, "will be a shield and a protection" to them from the power of the destroyer (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, vol. 2, p. 295).

When the underwear becomes worn, Mormons may use the garment as, say, a rag only if they cut out and burn the patches with the Masonic square and compass. The occult power is in the Masonic symbolism.

Ashamed and embarrassed about Smith's copying Masonic rites for the Endowment ceremony, Mormon officials expunged the Five Points of Fellowship and the Penalties from the Endowment in 1990. (Top)

 

[AllieBaba]

So we're agreed there's nothing about capitalizing the word "God" in the bible and that it is irrelevant.

Thank you.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Actually various translations capitalize "God" and others don't. The NIV doesn't normally, but the NASB does, and I'd assume the KJV that the Mormons semi-respect, but consider corrupted like the others does capitalize references to God, also. I.E. His, Him, Lord, God, Himself, Emanuel, Adonai, Jehovah, Jesus,

The Mormons do NOT consider the Bible corrupted. You keep making that lie as if it were true.

 

[Eightball]

The Mormons do NOT consider the Bible corrupted. You keep making that lie as if it were true.

Shows you how much you know about your own faith/religion.

 

[Skeptik]

Shows you how much you know about your own faith/religion.

I didn't know that RetiredGySgt was a Mormon also.

Church doctrine is that the Bible is correct so far as it has been translated correctly.

Actually, there is no mystery about LDS doctrine. It is succintly summed up in the Articles of Faith.

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Dude 8-ball, you have no understanding of what the free masons are so you think that our religion is just copied from it. If you knew the history of the free masons it is a tradition passed down from Solomon's Temple and the signs and symbols that happened there. Over the years some of the symbols had been lost to time and misinterpreted as well. Joseph Smith, interested in the popular Masonry of the day, joined to see what all the fuss was about. It is not a religion, free masonry, it is more of a social club where people use the signs that the original stone masons copied from the temple ceremonies of Solomon's Temple, which was of God, to distinguish themselves from another.
In Masonic meetings they talk with each other about the meaning of life and religion.
However Joseph, being a prophet, inquired of the Lord concerning the true meaning of these symbols from masonry.
He was revealed which signs were true, and which should be eliminated as not having the true symbolism. It was part of the restoration of the gospel or "restitution of all things, spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:14-15.
It's no secret that Joseph was a Mason. Nothing to be ashamed of either. In fact it turns out yet again to be a strong stamp of authenticity of the prophet.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Yeah.....it is......we are told to be respectful of Father at all times.

If I was trying to have perfect punctuation all the time, I would have tried a little harder Professor Sailor. Thank you for grading my posts. I already know they are getting a low grade from you so I didn't bother to fix the spelling or punctuation errors.

Oh yeah, I don't remember where we capitalized the name MORONI but if you could refresh my memory, I could clarify the reason why. Anywhoo, We do captilize the name of God and Jesus in Scripture.

 

[Truthspeaker]

As for the Bible, I wouldn't say it has been corrupted, but it is no longer a secret that it has been tampered with. For one, the original manuscripts included in the bible are nowhere to be found. The few original translations from the greek are missing pages, gee, I wonder why
Then the most suspicious blatant attack on the true word of God was the Nicean creed, in which, Constantinople, the pagan Roman emperor decided to try and unify the peope by forcing leaders of the church to get together for a great debate and compromise over what books and interpretations should be included in the bible.
No prophet or apostle was present to quell the debate but instead man was left to his own uninspired wisdom. Several valuable books were voted out of the original cannon. There was a great show called "Banned from the Bible" that just aired on the History Channel. I just watched it and so should you.Check this out.http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/12-19-2003/0002079002&EDATE It is plain to see that all knowledge and wisdom is not contained in one book, but from the ever speaking mouth of God.

We are grateful that there is anything even left of the Bible.

 

[Eightball]

Dude 8-ball, you have no understanding of what the free masons are so you think that our religion is just copied from it. If you knew the history of the free masons it is a tradition passed down from Solomon's Temple and the signs and symbols that happened there. Over the years some of the symbols had been lost to time and misinterpreted as well. Joseph Smith, interested in the popular Masonry of the day, joined to see what all the fuss was about. It is not a religion, free masonry, it is more of a social club where people use the signs that the original stone masons copied from the temple ceremonies of Solomon's Temple, which was of God, to distinguish themselves from another.
In Masonic meetings they talk with each other about the meaning of life and religion.
However Joseph, being a prophet, inquired of the Lord concerning the true meaning of these symbols from masonry.
He was revealed which signs were true, and which should be eliminated as not having the true symbolism. It was part of the restoration of the gospel or "restitution of all things, spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began." Acts 3:14-15.
It's no secret that Joseph was a Mason. Nothing to be ashamed of either. In fact it turns out yet again to be a strong stamp of authenticity of the prophet.

My friend, my Dad was a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Freemson, and went through all the chairs of the Lodge, and was a "Worshipful Master"!!!!!!!!

My sister was a Job's Daugher, and worked her way to "Honored Queen" of her Bethel!!!!!!!!

I have a nice ancient copy of the "Morals and Dogmas Of Freemasonry" by the venerated Albert Pike, whom Freemasons don't like to tell anyone that he was a high up official in the KKK!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't give me any bloviating about what I don't know about Freemasonry. I lived with it all my life. My Uncles were Freemasons, my dad was gone every Friday night of my growing up, attending his meetings.

My Grandmother was a full blown LDS, and her husband, Frederick, was an Episcopalean. They married and lived in Salt Lake City. Frederick owned two Saloons in Salt Lake City. Though not LDS, he also was a craftsman and helped build the Mormon Tabernacle. I have a beer mug from his saloon that dates back to the later 1800's that says Pabst's of Milwaukee, on it and has a picture of the Bee Hive, on one side and Brigham Young's picture on the other side!

I've done extensive study of Mormonism, also working with Ex-Mormons for Jesus in Portland Oregon, back in my bible school days.

You don't have to be LDS to know your religion, and where it's pushing doctrinally. Just takes a little scratching of the surface and all the skewed stuff just spews out.

What a "haughty" statement by the LDS to say that the bible is "ok" so long as it is translated correctly or is correct with the original.

What gives the LDS church and it's hierarchy the cajones or credentials to judge the bible's credentials when their BOM has had over 4,000 major and minor changes?

The whole core of true Christianity is built upon the "grace" of God. Grace=unmerited favor. That's what God extended to us through the sacrificing of His Son's life in our place(The passover lamb).

The whole LDS concept is rolled up in one basic revealing; you must continue to do good works to reach a levels in the after-life. They take the James chaper 4 statement of "My faith has works" said by James and construe that to mean that works is what God desires or needs for us to prove ourselves worthy. This is so anti-biblical, and so out of context. James first of all was talking to Christians, not unsaved. He was letting the "saved" know that a "naturally"expression of their new, saved life through the blood of Christ, will be revealed in good works, or works that are a result of the prompting of God's resident Spirit, or Holy Spirit in these Christian's souls.

Faith or belief is said over and over again, in the bible, then comes works as a result of becoming a changed or new creature/creation in Christ Jesus. It is very straight forward, yet the LDS church "keys in" on the James passaged takes it out of context, makes it the key reason that they must go out on missions, knock on peoples doors, and all kinds of works of kindness.

God owns thousands of cattle on a thousand hills! Meaning, God doesn't need our wealth, our charity, our works to make Him happy with us or Himself.

God is most please with us, because with contrite, and humble hearts we finally surrendered in our hearts and admitted that He/Jesus must become, or be Lord of our lives. Not just in name, but in actual reality. To call Him, "Lord Jesus" and to live our own way and reason devoid of supplication, prayer, and humility before most righteous Creator, is to be a hypocrite, and illiterate of the ramifications of His title, "Lord".

Lord, means to rule, to have sway and way before our wills.

It means that, though we have free-will, we have a very important responsibility to appropriate to Him, what He is worthy or deserving-of. If indeed He made all things, then He is most competent to take care of our needs as well. Self, is our battlefield. Will we allow that metaphorical throne in our soul to have ourselves seated on it, or will we rightfully allow Christ to take that thrown at the very center of our being?

The LDS church is a manmade mishmash of do's and don't's not unlike the thousands of extra laws that the Jews added to the 10 commandments. Jesus was born into an environment or nation/Israel that was literally hamstrung by do's and don't laws. The Pharisee's, of His time were supposed to be the ethical and religious guides of the people, but instead they were men obsessed with power, and position, and control of the people through a myriads of laws that had nothing to do with faith in God.

God just wants us. We have only one major responsiblity. We must as an act of our God given wills, believe with all our hearts that Jesus is source of forgiveness of past, present, and future sins, and that He/Jesus was the only possible human being who could fullfill God's righteous desire. Christ was the only unblemished lamb/human who could fullfill God's righteous judgement upon rebellious, and sin natured man.

So, our part is to accept, belief, and then rest in Christ's finished work. Also believe/accept that fact that Christ has also given us the H.S. to guide, counsel, and direct us not with shouting, and guilt, but with gentle, loving persuasion, as we are called God's adopted sons and daughters.

How can we know that Mormonism is the new or better truth? Shall it be decided by a burn bosom testimony that could easily be counterfeited by Lucifer? Or shall we rest upon the Word, and the Word only to validate what is from God and what is not?

The LDS church encourages it's people to believe upon visual, audible, and dream like occurrences to validate the Mormon church as "the church".

Paul says, "No!" Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."!

 

[Truthspeaker]

Jesus said, "Go and do thou likewise."
Jesus states in Matthew chapter 5 verse 48"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect."
Why would Jesus command us to do something impossible? Because he wants us to try, then his grace will do the rest.