The Truth about Mormons

[ABikerSailor]

Of course freedom of speech means freedom to lie. Who always tells the truth? That doesn't, of course, mean that someone who says something that you disagree with is lying necessarily.

And, when I said "Thank you for defending her", the pronoun "her" didn't refer back to TS. We often speak of the country in the feminine, don't we?

Whether or not you think that Mormonism is a "derivative of other religions" really is not relevant to understanding just what Mormon beliefs are, nor is it supportable from the standpoint of the religion's originator. Just how versed in comparative religions do you think Joseph Smith could have been? Sure, there are going to be similarities between any two belief systems. So what?

Don't usually hear the pronoun "her" very often anymore. Sorry.

I don't mind the similarities, I just mind the way that their religion twists it.

 

[Avatar4321]

You grew into a mature adult? Really?

Can't tell it from what you're posting here idiot.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[Avatar4321]

Don't usually hear the pronoun "her" very often anymore. Sorry.

I don't mind the similarities, I just mind the way that their religion twists it.

Twists it how? Im curious whether you even really know what you are so upset over.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Twists it how? Im curious whether you even really know what you are so upset over.

Yeah, I do know what I'm upset over.

 

[Avatar4321]

Yeah, I do know what I'm upset over.

Yeah... that really didn't answer my question.

 

[ABikerSailor]

The way that they twist some of their beliefs which are clearly based in Judaism.

 

[Avatar4321]

The way that they twist some of their beliefs which are clearly based in Judaism.

I really hate when Im right sometimes.

 

[Eightball]

The basic premise of this thread was Truthspeakers attempt to project a theme of dialogue about beliefs, but was really not open to anything, but his beliefs. When confronted with very distinct, and obvious controversial positions by his founders and church doctrinal positions, he/Truthspeaker would "dodge" everytime.

In fact every "comeback" was, "I answered your question!", and he hadn't, and knew he hadn't.

You must understand, that Mormonism is a "works" based belief or religion, that drives it's adherents to work at gaining God's pleasure or "atta boys/girls" by evangelizing the heck out of the populous, via bicycles, white dress shirts, neck ties, black slacks, short haircuts, etc........

Christianity is not based on "works" but based on "grace". Works are indeed part and partial of a Christian's life, but works of a Christian does not affect their relationship with God. As mentioned before, a father can't revoke sonship from his son. Whether the son goes out on a wild binge and moves 20,000 miles away, he's still his father's son.

Most of what are referred to in mainstream Christianity as Christian cults, tend to devalue the divinity of Jesus, or water down His signifigance as God incarnate, and make Him into a lesser being, of created origin...i.e. An angel, a prophet, etc....but heavens no, not the Son of God!

Secondly, the Christian cults tend to weigh-down the member with so many do's and don'ts in order to please God, that it is just mind boggling.

Skeptics of any system of belief, in my opinion would assess any system of belief by going to the basic doctrines of the system, and check them out for themselves.

The Mormon religion is a mishmash of confused and contradictory ordinances and cultic rituals, with constantly changing or modified stances to protect themselves from widespread accusations of rascism, sexism, etc.

It was but a few years ago, that African Americans could not join or have any involvement in the Mormon Priesthoods. Why? Their dear old accurate prophets claimed that people of the negroid race were decedents of Cain............Yes, Cain, who killed the Righteous Able out of jealousy. Talk about stereotyping a billions of human beings to second class status in their church!...........

But somehow, when under public scrutiny, their prophet/president, had a "word from god", and they changed that practice and now people of the Negroid race were welcome to participate in thei Mormon Priesthoods.

Polygamy: Their prophets of old said it was ok..........The U.S. Government got pretty mad and was going to withhold statehood from Utah,..............Here came another Epiphany from God............All of sudden, God changed His mind and said, plural marriages are out.

Joseph Smith's testimony of meeting up with this ange called Moroni, and receiving these golden plates with "reformed Heiroglyphics" printed upon them is just another bunch of bull feathers. To this day, not one linguist in the ancient language of heiroglyphics will substantiate this new Heiroglyphics that J.S. Smith Jr. received and then translated via a "seers" stone in his hat.

Folks........J.S. Jr. used a seers stone while scamming folks in New York with his dad J.S. Sr.. The man had a history of conning and scamming people. He went on crazy treasure hunts in the New York, and got lots of people to give him investment money to do these bogus schemes.

The American people are patient, and tolerant folks for the most part, but they won't tolerate illegal activities in their communities or anyone propagating them. This is why J.S. Jr., was run out of every city and was pushed West to Salt Lake.

J.S. jr.s death was rewritten by their church to project a persecuted man of god, who was killed by very people in Illinois; when in fact he was in prison in Illinois for breaking into a newspaper publisher's shop and attempted or did damage the printing press. It was printing material that didn't shine favorable on J.S. jr.'s group and their activies.

If I was a skeptic.......this religion would raise more red flags than an Olympic ceremony.

 

[Dr Grump]

religion would raise more red flags than an Olympic ceremony.

Funny. All religions and their tenets do that for me...all the time...

 

[Skeptik]

The basic premise of this thread was Truthspeakers attempt to project a theme of dialogue about beliefs, but was really not open to anything, but his beliefs. When confronted with very distinct, and obvious controversial positions by his founders and church doctrinal positions, he/Truthspeaker would "dodge" everytime.

No, the basic premise of this thread was to explain just what Mormon beliefs are, not to debate the truth of those beliefs.

 

[Eightball]

No, the basic premise of this thread was to explain just what Mormon beliefs are, not to debate the truth of those beliefs.

If you as a skeptic were to check into the teachings of the LDS church, you would see very clearly that Truthspeaker's "motiv operandi" was clearly a "wolf in sheeps" clothing attempt on this board.

They/LDS attempt to project or explain their position as a starting point of discussion, then they move in for the "sale".

When one starts a thread on this forum or other similar ones, and wants to tell everyone about their system of belief, are they expecting "Oohs, and Awe's" and agreement? Maybe? This is the religion section of this web forum, and when you present your doctrinal beliefs, it is expected, that you will get inquiries, agreement, and disagreement, debate, .........and especially questions concerning possible inconstitencies.

There was a book written some years ago by Josh MacDowell, called, "Evidence Demands A Verdict". The title is appropriate for this section of the forum; namely religion or beliefs.

You avatar or moniker your name as a "Skeptic". Nothing wrong with that. We should all be sceptics, or we'll can get the old perverbail "wool" pulled over our eyes, and end up in a bad situation.

There is however a dividing, or parting point when scepticism butts heads with "wisdom", and refuses to accept the obvious, or just is enjoined to perpetual argument for the sake of creating or perpetuating differences. That is the beginning of "ignorance", with strong underlying currents of rebelliousness to support it's precarious position.

Again, it is "wise" to question all things. It is a natural and protective thing to do as a human being. It is also exhibited in the animal world to lesser and greater extents.

During Jesus' time there were sceptics too. In fact after Pentacost, and the gradual growth of the early Christian church their were a people of Berea, that were very devout to the "Way" or Christianity, and even when Apostles of Christ would meet with them and share testimonies and teachings, the Bereans would immediately go to scripture to validate/agree, or not accepty what they heard. The Apostle Paul commended them for not accepting what he taught them, hook, line and sinker.

That is not the sign of a cult. A cult teaches, but cautions it's adhere to avoid any and all other possibilities. You are not supposed to "test" what your elders tell you. You accept their teaching as the truth.

 

[Avatar4321]

That is not the sign of a cult. A cult teaches, but cautions it's adhere to avoid any and all other possibilities. You are not supposed to "test" what your elders tell you. You accept their teaching as the truth.

Then I think according to your standards, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot be a cult. Because at the essence of the it's teachings is to ask questions and learn from God. In fact, no one can be baptized into the Church until they do this.

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is. (Moroni 10:3-6)

This is the promise that comes with the Book of Mormon. That the Lord will reveal through revelation it's veracity.

In fact, Joseph Smith's own account tells that he the reason he was on the path he was on is because he had questions none of the local denominations could answer and eventually came accross James 1:5-6 stating that if any man lack wisdom he could ask God.

In fact, it's a long standing mormon commandment to ask questions and to learn:

7 And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith; (D&C 109:7)

77 And I give unto you a commandment that you shall teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom.

78 Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand;

79 Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—

80 That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you. (D&C 88:77-80)

One of the first things Joseph Smith did after organizing the Church and after moving to Kirtland was to organize a school. The School of the Prophets as it was called was a place where the various leaders could meet and learn not only doctrine but other things as well. They had Hebrew lessons because Joseph wanted to be able to understand the Bible in the original Hebrew.

And the most reoccuring theme taught is not to believe just because they said something but to go and find out from God yourself. There has never been a request for blind obedience. Brigham Young stated:

I will say a few words in regard to your belief in being led, guided, and directed by one man. Brother Jackman has said that our enemies hate the fact of our being led by one man. Thousands of times my soul has been lifted to God the Father, in the name of Jesus, to make that verily true in every sense of the word, that we may be led by the man Jesus Christ, through Joseph Smith the Prophet. You may inquire how we are to know that we are so led. I refer you to the exhortation you have heard so frequently from me. Do not be deceived, any of you; if you are deceived, it is because you deceive yourselves. You may know whether you are led right or wrong, as well as you know the way home; for every principle God has revealed carries its own convictions of its truth to the human mind, and there is no calling of God to man on earth but what brings with it the evidences of its authenticity....

What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually (Brigham Young, "Eternal Punishment," Journal of Discourses, reported by G.D. Watt 12 January 1862, Vol. 9 (London: Latter-Day Saints Book Depot, 1862), 150.)

In fact, several prominent Latter-day Saints have spoken against "blind obedience"

Latter-day Saints are not obedient because they are compelled to be obedient. They are obedient because they know certain spiritual truths and have decided, as an expression of their own individual agency, to obey the commandments of God. We are the sons and daughters of God, willing followers, disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ, and "under this head are [we] made free." (Mosiah 5:8)

Those who talk of blind obedience may appear to know many things, but they do not understand the doctrines of the gospel. There is an obedience that comes from a knowledge of the truth that transcends any external form of control. We are not obedient because we are blind, we are obedient because we can see. (Boyd K. Packer, "Agency and Control," Ensign, May 1983, 66)

Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. No Prophet of God, no Apostle, no President of a Stake, no Bishop, who has had the spirit of his office and calling resting upon him, has ever asked a soul to do anything that they might not know was right and the proper thing to do. We do not ask you to do anything that you may not know it is your duty to do, or that you may not know will be a blessing for you to do.

If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil. (Josehp F. Smith, Collected Discourses, ed. Brian H. Stuy, Vol. 3 (Burbank, B.H.S. Publishing, 1987-1992)

Now, we do not believe in blind obedience, but we do believe in discerning obedience. Every one of us is entitled to enjoy discernment. What is discernment? It is recognizing the difference between right and wrong, or developing clearness of judgment or insight. If we are living the Gospel we are entitled to enjoy the light of the Holy Spirit to guide and bless us, to enable us to judge rightly. We do not have to accept the judgment or counsel of the man who stands at the head of the Church here upon the earth; but we will know that the things he advises are right, if we will divorce ourselves from personal or political desire or ideas. We should strive to enjoy the spirit of discernment. The Apostle Paul tells us that one of the gifts of the Holy Ghost is the discernment of spirits. In like manner one of the gifts is discernment of right and wrong. What a wonderful thing it will be when we shall all learn correct principles, and have the discernment to govern ourselves in righteousness. Then we shall grow in justice and fair dealing, we shall avoid strife and contention, we shall enact and administer equitable laws, and improve in temporal and spiritual things. The Lord will prosper this people temporally as well as spiritually if we control our selfish feelings and strive to carry out his purposes. (Sylvester Q. Cannon, Conference Report, April 1937, Afternoon Meeting, 83-84)

Now I know I've said a lot. But I am sure you can see from Latter-day Saint scripture and leaders that there is absolute encouragement of finding out and learning the truth for oneself. In fact, its an absolute fear of the Apostles that people will blindly obey and not rely on the Spirit for discernment.

Man cannot be saved in ignorance. That is why the Apostle Peter taught us to add knowledge to our faith.

 

[AllieBaba]

The Apostle Paul commended them for not accepting what he taught them, hook, line and sinker.

That is not the sign of a cult. A cult teaches, but cautions it's adhere to avoid any and all other possibilities. You are not supposed to "test" what your elders tell you. You accept their teaching as the truth.

Paul also encouraged people to contact those who actually had seen Jesus, to obtain their testimony if they doubted his.

The truth is, nobody who lived at the time of Jesus ever challenged his ability to perform miracles nor did they challenge the apostles' veracity as they traveled around, teaching.

 

[chloe]

I thought faith is kind of like blind obediance.

 

[Eightball]

I thought faith is kind of like blind obediance.

That's absolutely opposite of biblical teaching.

 

[Agnapostate]

Paul also encouraged people to contact those who actually had seen Jesus, to obtain their testimony if they doubted his.

The truth is, nobody who lived at the time of Jesus ever challenged his ability to perform miracles nor did they challenge the apostles' veracity as they traveled around, teaching.

These absurd comments indicate an ignorance of the development of early Christianity. Early Christians formed into multiple sects that made modern sect divisions appear trivial and petty. Each sect had their own books purporting to be written by disciples of Jesus, with alternate sects claiming that Jesus was wholly divine or that he was wholly human, claiming that there was one god, two gods, ten gods, or even three hundred and sixty five gods.

Then again, you are audacious enough to supply "evidence" that allegedly proves the veracity of the Bible, while ignoring evidence that disproves it, as well as textual criticism which documents the scribal additions to this "infallible" book, so it is not surprising that you would be unaware of this.

 

[chloe]

That's absolutely opposite of biblical teaching.

oh ok

 

[Eightball]

oh ok

Romans Chapter of New Testament, authored by the Apostle Paul. Chapter 10 verse 17.....NIV Translation

"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the Word of Christ."

Now other translations use "Word of God" which is the same as "Word of Christ"; as God proclaimed and Christ Himself proclaimed to be God, or the "I AM".

The bible is our "Word of God" today. So faith is not blind, but is believing in the testimony of these authors of all the books of the bible, both Old and New Testament.

The bible was trully written down or recorded by men, but the difference between Mark Twain, or Grisham or Plato, is that these men/authors of the bible were inspired by God's Spirit.

Also, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, that are nearly 2,000 years old that were created not long after Jesus' life, contain a nearly complete copy of the O. T. book of Isaiah. When it was compared with our current bible translations, it was word for word the same!

Now in just 180 years since it's creation in 1830, the Book of Mormon has been changed over 4,000 times. What will the Book of Mormon look like texturally in 2,000 years at that rate of change?

One of God's attributes mentioned throughout the bible is His omnipotence.

Lets let Merriam Webster(dictionary) define this attribute.

1om·nip·o·tent
Pronunciation: \-tənt\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin omnipotent-, omnipotens, from omni- + potent-, potens potent
Date: 14th century
1often capitalized : almighty 1
2: having virtually unlimited authority or influence <an omnipotent ruler>
3obsolete : arrant
— om·nip·o·tent·ly adverb

So you can see by the evidence alone of the zero change in 2,000 years of one major portion of the bible, that God, through His omnipotent power, can protect His Word that He gives to His people or creation.

Man is fallible, and finite. God is infallible, and infinite. The Mormons doctrines have changed so many times since that religion's inception, that it will make you dizzy.

The bible says that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The Mormon god, is one thing yesterday, something different today, and who knows what tomorrow.

As I've mentioned previously, the LDS church strategically changes is doctrinal stances as the political and ethical, secular rules of society change. True Christianity as reflected even in the book of Acts, that is a beginning of the early church, is as applicable to present life as it was back then. Within the bible is also cultural reflections of the time of it's writing, and often cults will latch onto those cultural revealings from the scripture and make them doctrinal stances. One must discern scripture with the absolute inclusion of the Holy Spirits counsel.

This is why, when people trully become Christians, their hunger for the bible will grow by leaps and bounds. Their hunger for secular literature doesn't grow or change necessarily, but for what's revealed within the pages of the bible does indeed. This is an evidence of true conversion of one's soul or person. Man does not make himself a Christian by being the son or daughter of devout Christian parents. True Christianity is a "one on one" encounter with God, through the person's contrite, and humble recognition of God's Son as their one and only ultimate Saviour, and thence Lord for the rest of their lives.

 

[Avatar4321]

Paul also encouraged people to contact those who actually had seen Jesus, to obtain their testimony if they doubted his.

The truth is, nobody who lived at the time of Jesus ever challenged his ability to perform miracles nor did they challenge the apostles' veracity as they traveled around, teaching.

I dont know about that. I dont doubt that Jesus and the Apostles preformed many miracles. But i wouldnt say no one challenged them simply because we have no record of it.

But then I dont really see how miracles challenging skeptics invalidates the miracle. So it doesnt bother me if someone does doubt it.

 

[Avatar4321]

Man is fallible, and finite. God is infallible, and infinite. The Mormons doctrines have changed so many times since that religion's inception, that it will make you dizzy.

Having studied it indepth, I can promise you the doctrines are the same today as they were originally. Im not sure where you are getting this idea that the doctrines have changed so many times, but it's not accurate.

But then I suppose beleving in ongoing revelation is tough for some people to accept because they get their own ideas of what things should be and when God clarifies things, they think God has changed when in reality their views of what was from God was just wrong.