The Truth about Mormons

[Eightball]

Please Refute This Or Any Part Of This? This information was presented by biblical centered Christian organization that doesn't "hate" Mormons, but is very strongly concerned and impassioned for their eternal destiny. - Eightball

The Plain Truth about the Mormons

The Mormon movement began with "the prophet" Joseph Smith, Jr. in the year 1820. Joe (as he was known) was born to some rather strange parents in 1805. His mother, Lucy, was involved in occult practices and visions, while his father, Joseph, Sr., consumed much time with imaginary treasure digging (including the booty of Captain Kidd).

According to Mormon writings (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:1-25), on a day in 1820, Joe was praying in the woods when he received a vision from God the Father and Jesus. It was revealed to Joe that the church was in apostasy and he was the chosen one to launch a new dispensation.

Being unwilling to drop his current occupation of money-digging with his father (while using "peep stones" and "divining rods"), Joe put his "calling" on hold for three years. Then, according to his own account (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1:29-54), he was paid a bedside visit by the angel Moroni in 1823. Moroni, who professed to be the glorified son of a man named Mormon (who had been dead 1400 years), told Joe about a book of golden plates which contained "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel." This book was said to have been buried at Cumorah Hill, near Palmyra, New York, some 1400 years earlier by the man named Mormon. Four years later (1827), Joe supposedly dug up the golden plates along with a gigantic pair of spectacles which he called "the Urim and Thummim." The spectacles were for translating the hieroglyphics on the plates. With the help of his only legal wife and a friend named Oliver Cowdery, Joe translated the plates and published the Book of Mormon in 1830. Later that same year, Joe, his wife, his brothers (Hyrum and Samuel), and Cowdery established the "Church of Jesus Christ," which is known today as the "Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints."

The Book of Mormon contains many plagiarisms of the King James English (at least 25,000 words). This is strange since the plates were supposed to have been in the ground many centuries before the King James Bible was completed in 1611! The Book of Mormon also contains many errors such as claims of elephants in the Western Hemisphere and advanced metal producing capabilities in America before 400 A.D. (See Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults for a fine study in the errors of the Mormon Bible)

The Mormons, under Smith's command, turned out to be a rough bunch. Joe was a polygamist with at least twenty- seven wives (some say over 60 wives). The whole gang left New York for Ohio, and then moved to Missouri. The Missouri governor ran them out of the state, so they settled in Nauvoo, Illinois, and built the state's largest city. In 1844, Joe and Hyrum were thrown in jail. Then an angry mob stormed the jail and murdered them both. Naturally, this "martyrdom" insured the perpetual reverence of the great "prophet" Joseph Smith.

The "church" then split. The Smith family headed for Independence, Missouri and started what is now the "Recognized Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints." However, the majority of Smith's followers chose Brigham Young as their new captain.

To escape U.S. laws, Young led the Mormons from Nauvoo to Salt Lake City in 1847 (which then belonged to Mexico). For the next thirty years, Young and his "saints" laid the foundation stones of the Mormon cult.

Little known to most Mormons, Young was a rather rough and ruthless character. In 1857, he commanded Bishop John D. Lee to murder a wagon train of over one hundred helpless non-Mormon immigrants. Twenty years later Lee was convicted and executed by the U.S. Government. Young escaped punishment, and his role in the Mountain Meadows Massacre has escaped the Mormon history books.

Young spent most of his "ministry" dodging the law to continue the immoral practice of polygamy. At the time of his death in 1877, Young had seventeen wives and fifty-six children.

Today the Mormon church is administrated by its "General Authorities." These authorities consist of the "First Presidency," the "Counsel of Twelve Apostles," the "First Quorum of the Seventy" and its presidency, the "Presiding Bishoprick," and the "Patriarch of the Church."

Male Mormons over twelve years of age are divided into priesthoods. The Aaronic order is the lesser priesthood, and the Melchizedek order is the higher.

The church is divided into thousands of "wards" and "stakes," with over 2000 branches and 180 missions, and over 5,000,000 members.

Mormons are very missionary-minded people, with over 26,000 active missionaries. However, much of this missionary army consists of young men and women in their early twenties who must serve two years in missionary work while supporting themselves.

The Mormon people of today are highly respected in our society, but there is nothing respectable about their doctrines. Some are as follows:

The Deity of Man Promoted

Mormons teach that man can become God, and that God was once a man:

"God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted immortal resurrected man!" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 322-23, 517, 643)
"...God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens..." (Journal of Discourses, V6, P3, 1844)
"As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become." (Lorenzo Snow, quoted in Milton R. Hunter, the Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 105-106)

This is plain and simple heresy. Nowhere does the Bible say or imply that God was ever a man, or that man can become God! Malachi 3:6 says, "For I am the LORD, I change not..." How could this be true if God was once a man? Genesis 1:1 states that God existed "in the beginning" before man was ever created. John 4:24 states that God is a "spirit," and Jesus tells us in John 1:18 that no man has seen God at any time. Numbers 23:19 says that "God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man that he should repent." God has always been God, and no one has ever "become" God.

Deity of Jesus Christ Denied

The Deity of Jesus Christ is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, yet the Mormons deny this truth. Exalting man to "god status" is apparently alright, but Jesus Christ is not acknowledged as the eternal Son of God in the Mormon church. The Mormon Jesus was a preexisting spirit who was exalted, just as Mormon followers hope to be exalted someday.

God is a Trinity (I Jn. 5:7), and the second Member of that Trinity is the Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1 says that "the Word was God," and John 1:14 tells us that "the Word was made flesh." Jesus Christ is the Word incarnate, and John 1:1 tells us that the Word was God; so Jesus Christ is God.

Jesus allowed Thomas to address Him as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28. In Isaiah 9:6, He is called "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father," and we read in Micah 5:2 that Jesus is "from everlasting."

Our Lord allowed people to worship him in John 10:38 and in Matthew 14:33, and since He is "God with us" (Mat. 1:23) He also has power to forgive sins (Mk. 2:5). Jesus Christ is clearly Deity, yet this doctrine is denied by the Mormons.

Multiple Authorities

The Bible declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isa. 8:20) However, the Mormon Church claims that other writings, such as the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith's writings are also authoritative. In fact, Joseph Smith taught his people to doubt the accuracy of the Bible: "...it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of men, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 10)

Mormon Writings Support Polygamy

"...if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then he is justified; he cannot commit adultery...And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery." (Doctrines and Covenants, 132:61, 62)

Jesus Christ held a slightly different view (Mark 10:6- 9). There is no way a man can be "one flesh" with more than one woman. A man and his wife are supposed to picture Christ and his church (Eph. 5:23-32), but this symbolism is shattered by the Mormon heresy of Polygamy.

True Church Theory

The Mormon book, The Pearl of Great Price, claims that all other Christian groups are "corrupt" and are an "abomination" in God's sight (Joseph Smith, 2:19). Such claims as this are based on the unscriptural assumption that the Lord Jesus Christ has a specific religious organization on the earth today, complete with a name, a membership, and a leadership, which makes up His "true church." This doctrine is found nowhere in God's word. Everyone who has received Christ as their Saviour is a member of His church, which is a spiritual body of born-again believers (Eph. 4:4; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18-24; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 19:7; 5:9-10; 21:9).

Other False Teachings

The Mormons deny the Trinity and the existence of a literal burning Hell, yet they promote polytheism (many gods), baptism for the dead, and the notion that Jesus and Satan were originally spirit brothers! Friend, make no mistake about it--Mormonism is a dangerous cult. In the eyes of man, the Mormons seem very respectable, but the light of God's word reveals the true wolves behind the sheep clothing. Jesus said, "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (Mat. 7:15) Don't look at their nice families, their clean-cut hair, and their friendly "missionaries." LOOK AT THEIR DOCTRINES! (I Tim. 4:1)

There is no way to cover all of the Mormon heresies in a tract this size. For further reading, we recommend our publication, The Bible Believer's Handbook of Heresies, which sheds light on many of the heresies being taught today in the name of our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Salvation through Works

Mormons believe that one's salvation is based on such good works as baptism, good deeds, missionary work, and following Mormon teachings. In The Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, justification by faith in Jesus Christ is called a "pernicious doctrine" twice and he states that it has been "an influence for evil." (pp. 107, 480) Bruce McConkie once stated at Brigham Young University that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is "improper and perilous" (Church News, March 20, 1982, p. 5)

Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Romans 4:5 says that salvation comes to those who do not work for salvation, but believe on Jesus Christ instead!

Jesus Christ came into this world to lay down His sinless life for YOU--to pay for your sins because you couldn't. Jesus is your only hope for salvation. Only by receiving Him as your Saviour can you enter the gates of Heaven. There is no other way. "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by me." (John 14:6) "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

The Lord Jesus Christ has come and PAID for your sins by shedding His own Blood on Calvary. By receiving Him as your Saviour, you can be WASHED from all your sins in His precious Blood (Rev. 1:5; Col. 1:14; Acts 20:28; I Pet. 1:18-19). Notice these important words from Romans 5:8-9: "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Jesus PAID your way to Heaven! Your church cannot save you! Only by receiving Jesus Christ as your Saviour can you escape the damnation of Hell. Are you willing to forsake YOUR righteousness and receive Jesus Christ as your Saviour, your ONLY HOPE for Salvation? Romans 10:13 says, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:9 says, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Why not pray right now and ask the Lord to come into your heart and cleanse you from all sin? He will save you just as He promised.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So many outright lies and half truths as to be pointless to answer. Spread your hate somewhere else.

 

[jillian]

So many outright lies and half truths as to be pointless to answer. Spread your hate somewhere else.

Frankly, anyone arguing "faith" is pretty pointless. People believe what they believe... And so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, who cares what other people find beneficial in their lives?

 

[Skeptik]

Please Refute This Or Any Part Of This? This information was presented by biblical centered Christian organization that doesn't "hate" Mormons, but is very strongly concerned and impassioned for their eternal destiny. - Eightball

I didn't read the whole rant, as it wasn't worth my time, but this total falsehood did catch my eye as I scrolled through:

Deity of Jesus Christ Denied

The Deity of Jesus Christ is a fundamental doctrine of Christianity, yet the Mormons deny this truth. Exalting man to "god status" is apparently alright, but Jesus Christ is not acknowledged as the eternal Son of God in the Mormon church. The Mormon Jesus was a preexisting spirit who was exalted, just as Mormon followers hope to be exalted someday.

From the Articles of Faith:

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

Actually, if you want to know that Mormons believe, just follow the above link. Beliefs are summarized in one page, a lot more efficient reading than this thread.

 

[Eightball]

So many outright lies and half truths as to be pointless to answer. Spread your hate somewhere else.

Maybe you should spread your accusations of "hate" somewhere else?

As I've said before, my posts aren't from a position of hate, but of rebuttal, and Christian concern/love for the fate Mormons, as well as others who are "lost" in accordance with what the bible terms, "lost".

I don't hate people that refute my biblical faith. Jesus didn't hate folks who didn't accept what he succinctly laid down or communicated in the bible.

The "hate" mantra goes along with your churches "we are a persecuted people" mantra.

Have there been lynchings, of Mormons lately? If so, that is a hate crime.

Have people critiqued Mormonism........Most definetly......and found it lacking.........Most definetly. Is that a hate crime or hating Mormons........Hardly.

Jesus came to save the sick............and He didn't mean the physically sick, but the spiritually sick, and ignorant.

He made Himself so awfully plain and easy to understand as revealed in the N.T., and even emphasized He was, and is the "I AM". So we had a revealing of God in the Flesh/incarnate. Not a glorified man who did good works to earn godhood......

He said He was the Way and the Truth and the Light, and that no man could see or have a relationship with the Father except by "Me/Jesus".

The Jews didn't understand plain old faith, and continued to bury themselves in the "Laws" in order to please God. All along, God was telling the Jews, and Gentiles that if one little jot or tittle of the law was missed or violated, then one was doomed to death and separation from God.

So Jesus bridged this infinite gap between man and God, with His sacrificed life, as He was the only human who was sinless, and fitting to be that unblemished, Passover Lamb that could put an end to God's judgement upon sinful mankind.

Man's Responsibility: To accept Christ in their heart, objectively, as the One and Only subsitute or sacrifice for their sinful lives, and then accept that forgiveness by faith, objectively, and receive the Holy Spirit, as a seal and guarantor from God, that they were saved.

Visions and miracles cannot be trusted to be authored by God. Even Pharoahs magicians duplicated some of the miracles that Moses performed before Pharoah.

God wants us to depend on the bible over any and all miracles, visions, dreams, and other phenomena.

In the end times, the bible says that most of the worlds population will be duped by visions, and false Christs, and will ultimately go down the "Wide" or popular road, and will totally miss the "narrow" or challenging road of faith in God's promises set down and protected through the ages.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Dude, your are like a maniac with a shotgun that doesn't run out of ammo.

I stole that from someone on these boards.

Except with you the ammo is really weak. It's clear to see that you just copy and paste from anti- mormon websites and your whole mission is to try and prove mormon doctrine wrong. You can't do it. You won't win anymore than I would win if I tried to convert you.

Your sources are entirely questionable, your lack of history is astounding concerning the compilation of the bible or ancient languages. Your arrogance is hilarious. Your scriptures are grossly taken out of context whether from the bible or book of mormon. I have answered every question in your ridiculous essays. But you are so bloodthirsty that you keep coming back for more. Ok, fine, you will just continue to embarass yourself.

 

[Eightball]

Dude, your are like a maniac with a shotgun that doesn't run out of ammo.

I stole that from someone on these boards.

Except with you the ammo is really weak. It's clear to see that you just copy and paste from anti- mormon websites and your whole mission is to try and prove mormon doctrine wrong. You can't do it. You won't win anymore than I would win if I tried to convert you.

Your sources are entirely questionable, your lack of history is astounding concerning the compilation of the bible or ancient languages. Your arrogance is hilarious. Your scriptures are grossly taken out of context whether from the bible or book of mormon. I have answered every question in your ridiculous essays. But you are so bloodthirsty that you keep coming back for more. Ok, fine, you will just continue to embarass yourself.

My questionable sources are the bible, and newspaper accounts, and actually from your own church's historical accounts.

Care to share with the forum about of the Planet "Kolob" and it's signifigance to Mormon doctrine?

Also, Brigham Young's teaching about "blood atonement" when sins are too great for Jesus to forgive? What must a good Mormon do to the Mormon who has sinned beyond forgivenness?

Did Adam and Eve come from Planet Kolob?

Of course my inquiries are coming from the basis of "hatred" for Mormons......Not! If you might tackle looking at Eightball's past threads and posts, you won't find one "iota" of hate towards anyone.

 

[Truthspeaker]

My questionable sources are the bible, and newspaper accounts, and actually from your own church's historical accounts.

Care to share with the forum about of the Planet "Kolob" and it's signifigance to Mormon doctrine?Thanks for posting something that doesn't take an hour to read finally.
OK, now we are getting somewhere by asking questions and having a discussion.
Kolob is simply the star closest to planet on which God resides. No big deal. It was shown to Adam and many prophets who were privy to the information. It is not important for us to know in regards to our salvation however.

Also, Brigham Young's teaching about "blood atonement" when sins are too great for Jesus to forgive? What must a good Mormon do to the Mormon who has sinned beyond forgivenness?You totally misunderstand the hypothetical message of President Young. Brigham was simply asking if we would be willing to do like Abraham who was asked to kill his own son as a sacrifice to God. It was an act of obedience that didn't seem to make sense at the time but because Abraham knew that God was just, obeyed anyway.
We are not authorized or asked to kill anyone to atone for the sins of anyone. But if we were, would we be willing to do the same as Abraham? There are a few examples in scripture where the Lord commands righteous people to slay another. Usually it is the wicked being slain except for cases like Isaac.
If a person's sins are not covered by Jesus Christ's atonement, then it is of their own choosing.
That is why the scriptures talk over and over about "ridding ourselves of the blood of our brethren."

Did Adam and Eve come from Planet Kolob? Yes. No big deal.

Of course my inquiries are coming from the basis of "hatred" for Mormons......Not! If not hatred then gross misunderstanding of our doctrine If you might tackle looking at Eightball's past threads and posts, you won't find one "iota" of hate towards anyone.I have tackled every one of your posts and would tend to disagree with you but if I am wrong and you are not full of hate, then you are just full of error

 

[Eightball]

Might you elaborate on what the Mormon church teaches are those who can't be forgiven by the Lord Jesus Christ, or the category of sin/sins that cannot be atoned for by the blood of The Lord Jesus Christ? Could you substantiate this via the bible?

Note: Isaac was indeed a good person, but God's command to Abraham to take Isaac up to be sacrificed was a "test" of Abramham's faith in the true nature of God..i.e love, compassion, forgiveness, etc.. "That God would prepare a way, i.e. Isaac would not die. A Ram was provided.

Take note that many people were slain by the Israelites in the O.T., by command of God, but it is stated that those who died before the crucifixion and ressurrection of Christ will have their "moment" from the grave of old to say, "yeah" or "nay" before the post crucified Jesus Christ. The bible still seems to substantiate that atonement is still in the realm of Christ's work at the cross and not in man's hands(B. Young).

Aside from B. Young saying that man can take another man's life in blood atonement for sins, allegedly beyond Christ's ability or scope of redemption, could you please give some specific bible verses that substantiate this?

Also, could you please reference in the bible where it is taught or told that Adam and Eve came from the planet Kolob?

Where in the bible does it say, that us humans can achieve Godhood?

Who in Mormon doctrine determines where bible scripture is correct, and where it is not correct?

Where in the bible does God actually say, that He/God is for or blesses multiple marriage? If you reference verses where bible characters had more than one wife, that is not a carte' blanc approval, but a tolerance and forebearance on God's part.

Knowing that James 4:11 is referring/talking to Christians/saved who are not working to be saved, where does the bible specifically say "in context" that to be saved one must perform satisfactorily "faith plus good works"?

In Romans 3:23, " For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." is quite specific. Yet Paul, the inspired author of Romans, also says in following passages/verses that Christ sacrifice was for all of humanity, both Jew and gentile.

Where in the bible does it state that before human being's were born or conceived that they were alive as spirits?

Where in the bible does it substantiate that one's earthly marriage will continue in heaven?

Does the bible teach that Jesus had a brother named Lucifer?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You can ONLY be saved if you accept Jesus and repent of your sins. IF you choose to either not ask for Jesus forgiveness , fail to repent or continue your wicked ways PURPOSEFULLY Jesus will not save you.

The exception being those that have not been taught about Jesus. They will be given a chance to learn and accept Jesus as their savior after Judgement Day.

 

[Avatar4321]

Please Refute This Or Any Part Of This? This information was presented by biblical centered Christian organization that doesn't "hate" Mormons, but is very strongly concerned and impassioned for their eternal destiny. - Eightball

Yeah, I believe that. Right.

Is it really that difficult to learn the truth as it is rather than as corrupt individuals who would no longer be able to collect money from their flocks if the truth got out sees it?

If they are so concerned about my Eternal Destiny, why do they have to lie about what I believe. Why do they have to lie period?

This is one of the ultimate questions which I had to ask myself when I was studying the Restoration. If those who fight against it are so right, why do they have to lie? It just didnt make sense. And its not like they are just misinterpreting things. They out and out lie. And what gets me is all you have to do is read the freaking title page of the Book of Mormon to start to see where they are lying. It's ridiculous.

If your position is accurate, you dont have to lie about others to prove your points. It's as simple as that.

 

[Avatar4321]

Frankly, anyone arguing "faith" is pretty pointless. People believe what they believe... And so long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, who cares what other people find beneficial in their lives?

And by what standard do we judge that it doesnt hurt anyone?

 

[Avatar4321]

Maybe you should spread your accusations of "hate" somewhere else?

As I've said before, my posts aren't from a position of hate, but of rebuttal, and Christian concern/love for the fate Mormons, as well as others who are "lost" in accordance with what the bible terms, "lost".

I don't hate people that refute my biblical faith. Jesus didn't hate folks who didn't accept what he succinctly laid down or communicated in the bible.

The "hate" mantra goes along with your churches "we are a persecuted people" mantra.

Have there been lynchings, of Mormons lately? If so, that is a hate crime.

Have people critiqued Mormonism........Most definetly......and found it lacking.........Most definetly. Is that a hate crime or hating Mormons........Hardly.

Jesus came to save the sick............and He didn't mean the physically sick, but the spiritually sick, and ignorant.

He made Himself so awfully plain and easy to understand as revealed in the N.T., and even emphasized He was, and is the "I AM". So we had a revealing of God in the Flesh/incarnate. Not a glorified man who did good works to earn godhood......

He said He was the Way and the Truth and the Light, and that no man could see or have a relationship with the Father except by "Me/Jesus".

The Jews didn't understand plain old faith, and continued to bury themselves in the "Laws" in order to please God. All along, God was telling the Jews, and Gentiles that if one little jot or tittle of the law was missed or violated, then one was doomed to death and separation from God.

So Jesus bridged this infinite gap between man and God, with His sacrificed life, as He was the only human who was sinless, and fitting to be that unblemished, Passover Lamb that could put an end to God's judgement upon sinful mankind.

Man's Responsibility: To accept Christ in their heart, objectively, as the One and Only subsitute or sacrifice for their sinful lives, and then accept that forgiveness by faith, objectively, and receive the Holy Spirit, as a seal and guarantor from God, that they were saved.

Visions and miracles cannot be trusted to be authored by God. Even Pharoahs magicians duplicated some of the miracles that Moses performed before Pharoah.

God wants us to depend on the bible over any and all miracles, visions, dreams, and other phenomena.

In the end times, the bible says that most of the worlds population will be duped by visions, and false Christs, and will ultimately go down the "Wide" or popular road, and will totally miss the "narrow" or challenging road of faith in God's promises set down and protected through the ages.

The thing is, you arent critiquing mormonism. You don't know what it is.

Ive seen no evidence that God wants us to rely on the Bible above all else. This concept is found no where in the Bible. In fact, as cited before, Christ specifically chewed out the Pharisees because they claimed to believe the scriptures above all else and ignored God.

We are supposed to live off every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Not just the words He spoke thousands of years ago.

And the scriptures are correct, many will miss the narrow and challenging road of faith. Because they will continually put up stakes and say "I will believe this and nothing more". Man has never been damned for believing too much, just unbelief.

 

[Avatar4321]

My questionable sources are the bible, and newspaper accounts, and actually from your own church's historical accounts.

Really? So that article with no reference is in the Bible? Which part?

Care to share with the forum about of the Planet "Kolob" and it's signifigance to Mormon doctrine?

Sure, it's a reprentation of Jesus Christ and used to teach that we need to look to Him for light. I recommend reading it sometimes.

Also, Brigham Young's teaching about "blood atonement" when sins are too great for Jesus to forgive? What must a good Mormon do to the Mormon who has sinned beyond forgivenness?

It's not a difficult concept. If Christ's blood doesnt cover you, you have to pay for your sins. You either have an atonement for your sins or you pay. Seriously, the Bible isnt too hard to understand.

Did Adam and Eve come from Planet Kolob?

Since Kolob is a representation of Christ, the question could be answered several ways. But it is quite irrelevant to the doctrines of the Gospel. Much as what type of wood Noah used to build the Ark would be irrelevant.

Of course my inquiries are coming from the basis of "hatred" for Mormons......Not! If you might tackle looking at Eightball's past threads and posts, you won't find one "iota" of hate towards anyone.

If you were serious in your efforts, youd want to talk about the actual doctrines of the Church. You know, Faith, Repentence, Baptism, the Laying on of Hands, the priesthood organization, the resurrection, revelation.

But then, you cant argue them can you? You havent researched it to begin with. You've trusted what others have said. Others who, for whatever reason, spend their days ripping quotes out of context in unofficial journals and short hand accounts rather than deal with the actual revelations.

It's because they can't deal with the revelations. And youd rather argue irrelevant side issues then deal with the strength of the Church.

 

[Avatar4321]

Where in the bible does it say, that us humans can achieve Godhood?

How many times are you going to ignore the citations? Ive already posted dozens

Who in Mormon doctrine determines where bible scripture is correct, and where it is not correct?

God. That would be the entire point for giving us the Gift of the Holy Ghost. So we can learn from Him. So we dont have to put our faith in others.

Where in the bible does God actually say, that He/God is for or blesses multiple marriage? If you reference verses where bible characters had more than one wife, that is not a carte' blanc approval, but a tolerance and forebearance on God's part.

I suppose God gave David his wives because He didn't approve of this. David, a man who was after the Lord's own heart.

7 ¶ And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;

8 And I gave thee thy master’s house, and thy master’s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things (2 Sam 12:7-8)

Are you really proposing that we should believe that God didn't approve of David having more than one wife, after He said He gave them to him, just because you say so?

Knowing that James 4:11 is referring/talking to Christians/saved who are not working to be saved, where does the bible specifically say "in context" that to be saved one must perform satisfactorily "faith plus good works"?

Completely irrelevant because we dont believe we are saved by our works. We believe we are saved by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, we do believe we actually have to accept it by faith and not just give a meaningless confession of our lips.

In Romans 3:23, " For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." is quite specific. Yet Paul, the inspired author of Romans, also says in following passages/verses that Christ sacrifice was for all of humanity, both Jew and gentile.

Yes. The Son of God became a man so that men can become the sons of God. Something you keep denying.

Where in the bible does it state that before human being's were born or conceived that they were alive as spirits?

Off the top of my head? Jeremiah 1, John 9:1-2, John 38, Eph. 1:3-4

There are others of course, but Id have to do some searching. I know Ecclesiasties and Proverbs or Psalms talks about it.

Where in the bible does it substantiate that one's earthly marriage will continue in heaven?

How about Genesis, where Adam and Eve were married prior to the fall?

Or how about Christ's own words:

6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (Matt. 19:6)

Man brought death into the world. If God has stated that man cannot put asunder what God has joined together, then death cannot separate a husband and wife joined by the Lord.

Does the bible teach that Jesus had a brother named Lucifer?

No, it simply points out that we are all the offspring of God. And Job mentions that the Adversary was among the sons of God.

What the heck that has to do with actual doctrine, who the heck knows?

 

[Eightball]

How many times are you going to ignore the citations? Ive already posted dozens



God. That would be the entire point for giving us the Gift of the Holy Ghost. So we can learn from Him. So we dont have to put our faith in others.



I suppose God gave David his wives because He didn't approve of this. David, a man who was after the Lord's own heart.



Are you really proposing that we should believe that God didn't approve of David having more than one wife, after He said He gave them to him, just because you say so?



Completely irrelevant because we dont believe we are saved by our works. We believe we are saved by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, we do believe we actually have to accept it by faith and not just give a meaningless confession of our lips.



Yes. The Son of God became a man so that men can become the sons of God. Something you keep denying.



Off the top of my head? Jeremiah 1, John 9:1-2, John 38, Eph. 1:3-4

There are others of course, but Id have to do some searching. I know Ecclesiasties and Proverbs or Psalms talks about it.



How about Genesis, where Adam and Eve were married prior to the fall?

Or how about Christ's own words:



Man brought death into the world. If God has stated that man cannot put asunder what God has joined together, then death cannot separate a husband and wife joined by the Lord.



No, it simply points out that we are all the offspring of God. And Job mentions that the Adversary was among the sons of God.

What the heck that has to do with actual doctrine, who the heck knows?

What a skewed mess, you've made of a very simple and clear gospel as revealed in the bible.

You've added-to, the bible teachings of Jesus Christ so many strange and weird concepts..........

What a "stretch" to say that Planet Kolot is Jesus....

No where in the bible does it say that Adam and Even's relationship came from anywhere, but when God Created Adam first, then wanted Adam to have a helpmate as God didn't want Adam to be lonely, and took a rib from Adam to make Eve...........All in the garden, not somewhere else.

God is Spirit.........Moses could not look at God and live, and God put him in a cleft of a rock and let Moses only see his glory and attributes, and that was enough. The Tent of the Meeting in the desert, was God's dwelling place, and no one entered or they would perish.

If God were bone and flesh in that triune state of being during the Israelites exodus from Egypt, then all of Israel could have climbed up Mt. Sinai and seen Him with their eyes, but God warned them that He could not be witnessed by humans and live.

When Christ died, the Shekinah Glory of God became available and non-threatening to all of mankind through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was God.........incarnate, sent to show the total representation of God the Father, but in human flesh that mankind might identifiy with and have a clear understanding of the attributes of God, through His Son.

This is Spiritually ascertained, and clearly laid-out in Johns Gospel. The Word became Flesh, and the Word was God.

The only begotten of God..........

 

[Avatar4321]

What a skewed mess, you've made of a very simple and clear gospel as revealed in the bible.

You've added-to, the bible teachings of Jesus Christ so many strange and weird concepts..........

What a "stretch" to say that Planet Kolot is Jesus....

No where in the bible does it say that Adam and Even's relationship came from anywhere, but when God Created Adam first, then wanted Adam to have a helpmate as God didn't want Adam to be lonely, and took a rib from Adam to make Eve...........All in the garden, not somewhere else.

God is Spirit.........Moses could not look at God and live, and God put him in a cleft of a rock and let Moses only see his glory and attributes, and that was enough. The Tent of the Meeting in the desert, was God's dwelling place, and no one entered or they would perish.

If God were bone and flesh in that triune state of being during the Israelites exodus from Egypt, then all of Israel could have climbed up Mt. Sinai and seen Him with their eyes, but God warned them that He could not be witnessed by humans and live.

When Christ died, the Shekinah Glory of God became available and non-threatening to all of mankind through Jesus Christ.

Jesus was God.........incarnate, sent to show the total representation of God the Father, but in human flesh that mankind might identifiy with and have a clear understanding of the attributes of God, through His Son.

This is Spiritually ascertained, and clearly laid-out in Johns Gospel. The Word became Flesh, and the Word was God.

The only begotten of God..........

In other words, you dont know how to respond, so you resort to the you dont know a thing about the Bible argument.

This despite the countless citations from the Bible showing you where you are wrong about Mormons.

Oh, as a side note, Moses did see God face to face. As have many prophets. The natural man cannot see God and live, but when the Spirit falls upon man and changes him from his natural state, then that's a completely different story.

I can never understand the desire of some people to limit what God can and can't do. If God wants to reveal Himself to someone and let that person live, of course He has power to do so. Saying that He can't while ignoring all the scriptures where exactly that has happened seems pointless.

Stop putting up stakes that keep you from exercising full faith in Him.

 

[Truthspeaker]

8 ball is very afraid that his craft might be destroyed by not being able to destroy ours. We haven't even tried to destroy his. But something is very wrong with his desire to kick against the pricks. It only makes sense if you realize that the truth has a certain ring to it and people will do 1 of three things, fight it, embrace it, or ignore it. If he really just ignored it he would have left a long time ago.

 

[Eightball]

In other words, you dont know how to respond, so you resort to the you dont know a thing about the Bible argument.

This despite the countless citations from the Bible showing you where you are wrong about Mormons.

Oh, as a side note, Moses did see God face to face. As have many prophets. The natural man cannot see God and live, but when the Spirit falls upon man and changes him from his natural state, then that's a completely different story.

I can never understand the desire of some people to limit what God can and can't do. If God wants to reveal Himself to someone and let that person live, of course He has power to do so. Saying that He can't while ignoring all the scriptures where exactly that has happened seems pointless.

EXODUS Chapter 33:18-23

Verse 19 And he/Moses said, I beseech thee, show me thy glory.

Verse 19 And he/God said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
Rom 9:15

Verse 20 And he/God said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
see Gen 32:30, Exod 24:10, Deut 5:24, Judg 6:22, Judg 13:22, Isa 6:5

Verse 21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

Verse 22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

Verse 23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Stop putting up stakes that keep you from exercising full faith in Him.

KJV as pasted here is quite clear about, even prophets seeing God Almighty face to face.......

Now, however Jesus Christ could and was witnessed, or seen face to face, and was God Almighty incarnate.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Now the natural man cannot see God, that is obviously what is meant by statements such as yours, but below you will see that prophets and apostles priviledged to have interface with God are not "the natural man", they are transfigured to be able to withstand the prescence of God and are no longer in the natural human man.
Genesis 12:7
And the LORD appeareird unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him....

Genesis 18:1
And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre.

Genesis 26:2
And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.

Genesis 26:24
And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not.

Genesis 32:30
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Genesis 35:9
And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan.

Exodus 3:16
The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you.

Exodus 4:5
That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee.

Exodus 6:3
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob....

Exodus 24:9-11
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink.

Exodus 33:11
And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.

Exodus 33:23
And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts.

Numbers 14:14
For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face.

Deuteronomy 5:4
The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire.

Deuteronomy 34:10
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.

Judges 13:22
And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

1 Kings 22:19
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Job 42:5
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

Psalm 63.2
To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

Isaiah 6:1
In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up.

Isaiah 6:5
For mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.

Ezekiel 1:27
And saw ... the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward....

Ezekiel 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Amos 7:7
The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.

Amos 9:1
I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake.

Habakkuk 3:3-5
God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand.

Matthew 18:9
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.