The Truth about Mormons

[Christopher]

Eightball, all of that is true...

So, you agree with Eightball’s statement about Joseph Smith leading the church West to Utah?

 

[Avatar4321]

I think you are talking about the speech he gave in 07 to the byu hawaii grads. Is that the same one? If not where can I find it?

No i mean the one he gave this past week. i was watching it earlier. it was pretty good.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I think you are talking about the speech he gave in 07 to the byu hawaii grads. Is that the same one? If not where can I find it?

No i mean the one he gave this past week. i was watching it earlier. it was pretty good.

where is it? and how come you haven't accepted my friend request yet?

 

[Avatar4321]

Good, always learning is good. But, yes, we all know you are using 'mormonspeak' on your definition of dogma. Yep, Brigham Young taught different doctrine 150 years than the general authorities teach today, and your denials mean nothing at all.

Having studied indepth what Brigham Young taught and what we are taught now, i can assure you this is entirely incorrect. the Doctrine is consistant. Of course, you actually have to look at everything in context. Something many fail to do.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Havin' some funnin'. To be serious again, you are misusing the definition. And as far as using presentism in apologetics, LDS historians have becoming amazingly creative. But that's OK: you seem to be a good kid. We will enjoy ourselves here.

I use to think the LDS were pretty hard on African Americans, particularly before 1978. But have you ever heard of the FLDS thinking on pre-Adamites?

 

[Avatar4321]

Oh, cool it, truth. You are so easy to rile. Anyway, since you did not want to answer it . . . my LDS friends always said, when we were growing up, to date the leadership's daughters. One of the guys was dating an apostle's granddaugher (shut up, Truth, he's dead quite a few years, and she died in a car accident about ten or twelve years ago, so nothing's hurt here except your feelings), and he said, "absolutely awesome."

He would know. He got himself excommunicated in half a dozen stakes in Southern Utah before he was 25.

So you are seriously contending that you know someone who was excommunicated 6 times before he was 25? And you expect us to just accept this as the truth despite the fact that he would have to be rebaptized 6 times to do this and he would have to wait at least a year after his excommunication until he was eligible again? Assuming your story is correct and that he wasnt immediate excommunicated right after he was rebaptized, he was getting excommunicated and rebaptized from the age of 12 on.

needless to say, it seems that either your source is incredibly unreliable or you are completely misunderstanding him. my guess is the latter.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Eightball, all of that is true...

So, you agree with Eightball’s statement about Joseph Smith leading the church West to Utah?

Nope, he's right your wrong. He thinks that Brigham Young is the founder of the LDS church in Utah. Reread his post carefully. He is setting you up.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Good, always learning is good. But, yes, we all know you are using 'mormonspeak' on your definition of dogma. Yep, Brigham Young taught different doctrine 150 years than the general authorities teach today, and your denials mean nothing at all.

Having studied indepth what Brigham Young taught and what we are taught now, i can assure you this is entirely incorrect. the Doctrine is consistant. Of course, you actually have to look at everything in context. Something many fail to do.

False assurance will help you fall on your prat. Tell us about Brigham Young and his racist doctrine on African Americans. We will be using his own recorded words by his own secretaries, recorders, etc. So you are up, because I remember that you inferred BY was actually a great bud for blacks.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Oh, cool it, truth. You are so easy to rile. Anyway, since you did not want to answer it . . . my LDS friends always said, when we were growing up, to date the leadership's daughters. One of the guys was dating an apostle's granddaugher (shut up, Truth, he's dead quite a few years, and she died in a car accident about ten or twelve years ago, so nothing's hurt here except your feelings), and he said, "absolutely awesome."

He would know. He got himself excommunicated in half a dozen stakes in Southern Utah before he was 25.

So you are seriously contending that you know someone who was excommunicated 6 times before he was 25? And you expect us to just accept this as the truth despite the fact that he would have to be rebaptized 6 times to do this and he would have to wait at least a year after his excommunication until he was eligible again? Assuming your story is correct and that he wasnt immediate excommunicated right after he was rebaptized, he was getting excommunicated and rebaptized from the age of 12 on.

needless to say, it seems that either your source is incredibly unreliable or you are completely misunderstanding him. my guess is the latter.

Avi, do you know the difference between "concrete" and "abstract" thinking and expression?

 

[Truthspeaker]

Havin' some funnin'. To be serious again, you are misusing the definition. And as far as using presentism in apologetics, LDS historians have becoming amazingly creative. But that's OK: you seem to be a good kid. We will enjoy ourselves here.

I use to think the LDS were pretty hard on African Americans, particularly before 1978. But have you ever heard of the FLDS thinking on pre-Adamites?

no I haven't. I spend more time studying my own doctrine than offshoots.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Eightball, all of that is true...

So, you agree with Eightball’s statement about Joseph Smith leading the church West to Utah?

Nope, he's right your wrong. He thinks that Brigham Young is the founder of the LDS church in Utah. Reread his post carefully. He is setting you up.

either way, he is misinformed. Brigham Young never built the church. He took over it's leadership after Joseph Smith died while still in Nauvoo. The church never broke up. So it never needed to be rebuilt. capeesh?

The church was simply carried accross the plains and stopped in Utah.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Good, always learning is good. But, yes, we all know you are using 'mormonspeak' on your definition of dogma. Yep, Brigham Young taught different doctrine 150 years than the general authorities teach today, and your denials mean nothing at all.

Having studied indepth what Brigham Young taught and what we are taught now, i can assure you this is entirely incorrect. the Doctrine is consistant. Of course, you actually have to look at everything in context. Something many fail to do.

False assurance will help you fall on your prat. Tell us about Brigham Young and his racist doctrine on African Americans. We will be using his own recorded words by his own secretaries, recorders, etc. So you are up, because I remember that you inferred BY was actually a great bud for blacks.

been there. Done that. Anything new please?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Having studied indepth what Brigham Young taught and what we are taught now, i can assure you this is entirely incorrect. the Doctrine is consistant. Of course, you actually have to look at everything in context. Something many fail to do.

False assurance will help you fall on your prat. Tell us about Brigham Young and his racist doctrine on African Americans. We will be using his own recorded words by his own secretaries, recorders, etc. So you are up, because I remember that you inferred BY was actually a great bud for blacks.

been there. Done that. Anything new please?

OK, Truthspeaker, you concede the point that BY was a terrible racist. Those who wish to study his words can do so at journalofdiscourses.org. The diligent seeker can enter "Negro", "******", "Indian", "Jew", etc., and see the state of mind the LDS servants of God possessed during those years. Also search Brigham Young for comments on his belief of his teachings and "doctrine."

Some of the approving comments on the leadership follow about the Journals are found immediately below. Read them carefully, and you will quickly realize how dissimulating and prevaricating truthspeaker has become on the subject.

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)

“Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.)

“It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.” (President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Volume 18.)

 

[Truthspeaker]

OK, Truthspeaker, you concede the point that BY was a terrible racist. Those who wish to study his words can do so at journalofdiscourses.org. The diligent seeker can enter "Negro", "******", "Indian", "Jew", etc., and see the state of mind the LDS servants of God possessed during those years. Also search Brigham Young for comments on his belief of his teachings and "doctrine."

You're such a presumptuous windbag to think that I would equivocate such doctrines. Why, oh why won't you read the lengthy posts I have had on all the subject matter regarding our stance on blacks in the church? why do you ignore? Why do you assume you are the first to ask these questions? Do you not know that this is now the official longest standing thread in the history of USMB? and you think I haven't fully addressed the black issue?

What's wrong with you? Why won't you learn knowledge instead of hearsay? Let me copy and paste AGAIN the statement in the book "Discourses of Brigham Young." (not to be confused with Journal of Discourses.)
Page 54..."at some future time known only to God, The Lord will restore his children of the Negro race to the priesthood authority. When that time comes, I do not know but there will be many white people who will suffer punishment and the wrath of God for their mistreatment of that race."

there is much more but you forget the statement of the book of mormon claiming all races were equal. Brigham Young preached that book from the pulpit. People continue to take his statements out of context over and over again because his language is too harsh for most people's sensitive 21st century ears.

Some of the approving comments on the leadership follow about the Journals are found immediately below. Read them carefully, and you will quickly realize how dissimulating and prevaricating truthspeaker has become on the subject.

I have never equivocated once. You;ve proven nothing. I've been here since freakin November of Last Year answering these questions. How could I be hiding the truth? I've said all along... This is the Truth about Mormons. My name is Truthspeaker. What reason do I have to lie?

“The Journal of Discourses deservedly ranks as one of the standard works of the Church, and every rightminded Saint will certainly welcome with joy every number (issue) as it comes forth.“ (President George Q. Cannon, Journal of Discourses, Preface, Volume 8.)

“Each successive Volume of these Discourses is a rich mine of wealth, containing gems of great value, and the diligent seeker will find ample reward for his labor. After the fathers and mothers of this generation have made them the study of their lives their children’s children will find that they are still unexhausted, and rejoice that this Record has been handed down from their fathers to also aid them in following the way of life.” (Apostle Orson Pratt, Preface. Volume 3.)

“It is impossible to give monetary value to the past volumes of this publication, … Those who read the utterances of the servants of God, contained in this book, under the same influence by which the speakers were inspired, cannot fail to receive profit from the perusal.” (President Joseph F. Smith, Preface, Volume 18.)

[/QUOTE]

Indeed there are some gems to be found in the Journal of Discourses. There are statements just like in the Bible that need to be understood in context or you may get riled up. Like the "sexist" statement in the Bible where Paul tells women to be silent at all times in the church. And that it is a shame for women to speak in the church. And if they will learn anything at all, let them learn from their husbands at home.

There needs to be contextual understanding before we go crucifying Paul as a sexist. The same caution needs to be taken when understanding brigham's comments.

Why don't you read some of the great and wonderful things Brigham preached instead of learning nothing else about him other than that he was a "polygamist and racist."

Who do you think you are? It must be pretty easy to sit back and judge people you will never know who lived hundreds of years before you based on heresay of reports only you want to believe. Why not investigate the good reports of Brigham Young so you can get a fairer view of the man?

I know because you don't really want to study and learn. You just want to pretend to be educated by using big words you think we can't figure out while only doing shoddy studying at best. Big and seldom used words don't cover up your lack of education on this matter.

 

[THE LIGHT]

do mormons believe that jesus "is," "has been" and always will be god and that belief in him is the only way to eternal life?

yesss!!!!!!!!!

Would that be "yes" if you didn't change my quote too?

I'll take that as a no.

 

[HUGGY]

do mormons believe that jesus "is," "has been" and always will be god and that belief in him is the only way to eternal life?

yesss!!!!!!!!!

truth

 

[Truthspeaker]

yesss!!!!!!!!!

Would that be "yes" if you didn't change my quote too?

I'll take that as a no.

I replied and say yes. Did you you miss it?

 

[Truthspeaker]

do mormons believe that jesus "is," "has been" and always will be god and that belief in him is the only way to eternal life?

yesss!!!!!!!!!

truth

You need a Hug

 

[Eightball]

Yes, yes, yes, J.S. jr. didn't make it past Illinois, as he died in that famous shoot-out with that mob at the jail house.

Not quite all the way West to Utah..........Yes B.Y. had to lead the cult to the promised land of Salt Lake............

I suppose if J.S. jr hadn't gotten so much friction from the Christian communities on the way West, he'd have settled his cult somewhere East of Salt Lake, Utah.

Problem is that he and B.Y. afterwards were always at "logger heads" with the U.S. Government.

Still remember reading how President Teddy Roosevelt demanded that the American flag be taken down from the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah.

You'd never know that there history was so anti-American as they portray this "apple pie/American flag" image to the public nowadays.

Neophyte Mormons don't know all the deeper teachings/doctrines initially, but are gradually massaged into their introduction not unlike the old frog in the slowing warming water, that will inevitably end-up boiling them.

So many neophytes would flee from LDS membership if they were exposed to the plagarized freemasonry, oaths, hand grips/rituals that involve temple rites/initiations right at the beginning.

This is how cults operate. You project a tame, unstrange, atmosphere/doctrine at first, and gradually introduce the weird stuff as your new member become more immersed in the church activities of service/work.

This is why so many Born Again Christians can get sucked into Mormonism. Outwardly it seems so safe, and seems to exude in certain ways, the fruits of the Spirt, in it's outward friendliness, and service to it's members.

The word, "Worthy" is a real "corker", as Mormons use "worthiness" before God as their mainstay. This is why they react like deer in headlights when you try to explain the bible doctrine of "grace" to them. They deep down are striving to stay or become "worthy" before their god, yet God tells the "true" Christian that they are "worthy" based on Christ's work on the cross. Any "works" that the true Christian does is not out of a need to gain or keep their worthiness before God, but is a type of works that is a result of "gratitude", "love", and thanksgiving towards the One who saved them and gave them eternal life.

Mormons seem to often be blinded to understanding this concept.

This is why Truthspeaker can't understand Romans 10:17, as he has suppressed the "Truth" of God's word in his life, and is spiraling downward throught the Romans Chapter 1, degradation of his soul.

Of course there is still "hope" for Truthspeaker, and other Mormons who suppress the Truth. God still loves them, and will allow them to degrade soulically in their lives until they hit "bottom", and hopefully realize that they haven't been living a life of "transparency" and a "contrite" heart condition towards God.

Paul is perfect example of a man who just knew he had the "truth", yet he assailed biblical Christians, had them arrested, stood by and gave praise to those that stoned biblical Christians to death, because he was just so certain that he had the truth.

Yet it took being knocked off his mount on his way to Damascus, and having the ressurrected Christ intervene directly in his life and show him/Paul how he was fight against the true Christ.

Frome thence onward, Paul was a trully changed man. All that passion to assail God's people, was channeled into passion to proclaim the very Gospel, that Mormons say is corrupted by a non-omnipotent, weak mormon god, who couldn't protect his word to mankind, and needed a second try, via Moroni the angel, with the Golden plates written in "reformed Heiroglyphics".

I've asked and asked, why God would communicate to Moses in Moses' tongue/language via the tablets, yet to J.S. jr. it was "reformed heiroglyphics", to an "english" speaking nation/people?

One ponders, and in some ways J.S. Jr's having it in an unknown tongue kept an exclusivity of the translation to himself and his alleged cohorts.

Also, to this day, experts in ancient Egyptology have yet to find any evidence of a "reformed heiroglyphics" written language.

Truthspeaker disagrees with me about "faith". He doesn't understand that faith is built upon, a "confidence" that the individual has with whatever that particular understanding is.

For instance, when I sit down in a chair, I trust or have "faith" in the one who built the chair, or I will not want to sit in that chair. I am sitting in that chair trusting that it won't collapse, based on my confidence in the chair-builder. That is faith. It is not based on visions, feelings, dreams, etc..., but solid evidence presented before-hand.

People who believe biblically in Christ for Salvation, are trusting in the evidences presented in the bible by Paul, Peter, Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, Apollos, Steven, and of course Jesus Himself.

Are these biblical evidence based solely on miracles, or evidenciary things.

Paul said that over 500 were still alive and kicking when he wrote one of his epistles, who saw Christ crucified, and also witnessed His ascension into the heavenlies to sit at the right hand of God the Father. It only takes 2 or more eye-witnesses to convict a person in court, yet withing the bible we have myriads of eye-witnesses of Christ's existence.

That is faith based on evidences, not dreams that say, "Mormonism is the truth.", nor "warm fuzzies in the soul" that make us feel good about being Mormon.

Mormons such as Truthspeaker and others fight and fight against the realities of biblical based "faith". They doggedly hold onto their "experiential" type phenomena's to validate their belief system.

This is most dangerous, as Satan goes about like a roaring lion, deceiving if possible even the "elect" or true Christians.

Truth things the "born from above" or "Born again" statement by Jesus is "fuzzy" at most, and doesn't prove any point, yet over and over, Jesus said that what He gives is like thirst quenching water, that one will never need to thirst again. He told the Samaritan woman at the well that He had a water that would satisfy the human thirst forever. Even the Samaritan woman couldn't understand that this "water" was the Spirit of God that would come from God, and make residence in the True Christian's soul. That person would never again need to strive, to prove worthiness before God, but would be "reckoned" by God once and for-all, justified or righteous before His eyes. How? Cause His Son had taken their place on the cross, had taken sins past, present, and future, and sent them away as far as the East is to the West.

The Mormon, must keep on working at being worthy. Truth knows that. He knows that their belief system, involves constant work at being good before God, in order to be worthy of ressurrection, and their blasphemous godhood.

"There will be no other gods before Me!!!!!!!!" Not so with Mormons. They follow the same Isaiah delusional poem of Lucifer in claiming that they can rise to be equal to God.

Lucifer was a beautiful angel, most likely the most striking of all that God made. He may have even been a Seraphin, that stood before God's throne, with his three pairs of wings flying in the air and throwing out praise upon praise to his Creator. Yet, there was free-will for the angelic host as well to continue to give God all credit and praise and glory for eternity. Lucifer led 1/3 of the angelic host in delusional rebellion against God. He now roams about the earth, creating and stirring up anti-biblical belief systems that will inevitably catch many human souls in this intricate web of deceit.

Satan hates the human race, as it is intended to give glory to God and God alone. Mormonism, Scientology, Bahai, Universalism, Watch Tower, Moonies, etc... all carry the finger prints of Lucifer, as they all diminish, or totally remove the deity of Christ. Not only that, some of these cults go so far as to raise created man to the level of godhood, which mimicks what Satan attempted in Isaiah.

"There will be no other Gods before me." How plain and direct must God be. I would assume that this is one verse where the Mormons would claim corruption, as it flies in the face of their belief that they can all become gods one day.

Also in finishing, is it not correct that in the Mormon husband-wife relationship, that it is the husband that "raises" his wife from the dead? If this is true, does this not go against Jesus' very statement that there is no marriage or giving of marriage between souls in heaven? Also, does this not raise man's importance above woman.

The Mormons have made what is a very simple gospel from God to man and have created a mishmas of contradictions, changes, plagarized from the bible writings, and the dangerous mind of it's latter day president/prophets.

God doesn't need to send a new-improved Gospel to man. The bible has sufficed for thousands of years, and when man let's the bible/God speak to him it suffices 100%.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Eightball, chill, man! Early Mormonism is whacked out, sure, but their church today is not the church of Joseph Smith then -- that goes to the FLDS, and they are as whacked out as Joseph and Brigham ever were.