The Truth about Mormons

[Eightball]

Eightball, chill, man! Early Mormonism is whacked out, sure, but their church today is not the church of Joseph Smith then -- that goes to the FLDS, and they are as whacked out as Joseph and Brigham ever were.

Jake: The wacked-out part in the present LDS church had been incrementally placed under the radar in the 20th/21st century; that's basically the difference between old and new LDS.

I've worked with ex-Mormons for Jesus, many years ago, and also have extensive Mormon lineage on my father's side of the family.

My Episcapalean Grandfather who owned two saloons in Salt Lake City, helped build the great temple there as a carpenter.

Grandma was the Mormon side of the marriage.
*******
My father was as 32 degree Free Mason of Scottish Rite background going through all the chairs and become a Worshipful Master.

My father walked away from Freemasonry in his last years of life, after he started attending a bible teaching Christian church.
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When it comes to the bondage of cults, and humanistic thinking in lieu of God's truth, I've seen a lot of it, and it ain't pretty.
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Mormons are good people. They mean well, just like my benevolent Worshipful freemason Master Mason Dad.

Yet there are internal, spiritual scales that must fall off of the metaphorical eyes of their souls to see beyond their organizations.
******
Chill out.........I couldn't be more at rest. Psalms 46:10 "Cease Striving And Know That I Am God.".....Or another translation says, "Be Still And Know That I Am God.".

 

[Avatar4321]

Jake: The wacked-out part in the present LDS church had been incrementally placed under the radar in the 20th/21st century; that's basically the difference between old and new LDS.

Still have yet to see anything whacked out. But then I dont assume that because culture is different its insane.

I've worked with ex-Mormons for Jesus, many years ago, and also have extensive Mormon lineage on my father's side of the family.

Well that certainly explains alot of your misinformation.

My Episcapalean Grandfather who owned two saloons in Salt Lake City, helped build the great temple there as a carpenter.

Grandma was the Mormon side of the marriage.

Well, I am glad your grandparents helped with something so important.

Your grandfather wasnt a mormon, yet he was willing to help them worship as they saw fit. He sounds like a decent man.

*******
My father was as 32 degree Free Mason of Scottish Rite background going through all the chairs and become a Worshipful Master.

My father walked away from Freemasonry in his last years of life, after he started attending a bible teaching Christian church.
******

Interesting, but rather irrelevant to the thread.

When it comes to the bondage of cults, and humanistic thinking in lieu of God's truth, I've seen a lot of it, and it ain't pretty.
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I hope this doesnt come out the wrong way, but how could you possibly have seen anything when your forebears are the ones who did these things? i mean you can read about their experiences, or hear them tell them. But these arent actually your experiences. I dont see how they provide you with any sort of authority to go on.

Mormons are good people. They mean well, just like my benevolent Worshipful freemason Master Mason Dad.

So your father was evil because he was a mason?

Yet there are internal, spiritual scales that must fall off of the metaphorical eyes of their souls to see beyond their organizations.
******

Funny, I was thinking the same exact thing about you guys.

Chill out.........I couldn't be more at rest. Psalms 46:10 "Cease Striving And Know That I Am God.".....Or another translation says, "Be Still And Know That I Am God.".

Excellent scripture. Shame more people dont take it to heart.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I am very glad for you, Avi, that you have outed on this thread. Good for you!

 

[Arawyn]

I'm sorry but I feel I must point this out.....your post reeks of what you are condemning......is that a road which you wish to travel?

I think he recognizes his rough edges my elven princess. And I hope he is working on it.

Its a flaw we all have through human nature. But luckily God can change human nature.

Stop fighting with people and learn to simply answer and invite. that's the key

Thanks, always wise Avatar...from what I've seen.

I'm not perfect by any means.....LOL. Never will be. And I'm sorry TruthSpeaker if I sounded judgmental. I do have an issue with that still, and work on it daily. Just give me a smack upside the head when I am.

I thought I had posted when I was on vacation to your clarify comment, apparently, LOL, it didn't post. And honestly it was so long ago, the blonde in my brain leached it out.

It was probably along the lines of don't play into using the tactics of those that "harangue" the church by using their methods because it usually ends up in a muddy tumble down the hill kinda thing. And if that made sense to anyone but me, be sure to let me know LOL.

 

[Arawyn]

Mel Ballard is a good dude. And you should apply his teachings in your life. Give up whackos like Glenn Beck. Turn away from JBS leanings. Go lean on the Lord. Best of luck, Avatar. I am glad you are 'coming out' in public.

If you are considering Glenn Beck a wacko, is it his religious doctrine or his Constitutional/Libertarian/Conservative background, or both?

I find Glenn Beck very refreshing, and right on top of all that's going wacko with our present administration.

As for Beck's Mormon beliefs, I'm able to separate people from their religious persuasion, and appreciate or not their political/ethical doctrine.

I like LDS folks fairly well having been around them all my life, here in (deleted) as well as out west. What I don't like is Glenn's hidden "elders of Zion saving the Constitution" LDS belief tied to the nuttery of the John Birch Society, the Freeman Institute, and the ravings of Cleon Skousen. You can Avatar about all that.

Glenn's approach is held by a very, very small minority of LDS and considered to be a major step on the road to apostasy by the LDS church's leadership.*

*To small minority of LDS whackos on this principle -- go contact your Stake President and find out what happens to your standing in your church.

LOL, I didn't know Beck was LDS....wow, I learn something every day. )

 

[Arawyn]

Truth: It's a ridiculously retarded question to ask if mormon women are great in bed.

Go ask you Dad and come back and tell us (I learned how to flame like this from Terry!).

I'm telling Terry (if she is the one from this board) that you used it in such a fashion......

 

[Arawyn]

Yes, yes, yes, J.S. jr. didn't make it past Illinois, as he died in that famous shoot-out with that mob at the jail house.

Carthage, IL. I'm from about an hour south of both Nauvoo and Carthage and the story is quite well known, as is the expulsion from MO. My hometown, I'm proud to say, gave the early members sanctuary after the expulsion and led to the ability of founding Nauvoo.

Not quite all the way West to Utah..........Yes B.Y. had to lead the cult to the promised land of Salt Lake............

Heavens, it is hard to believe cult is still used to a religion (anyone else know of a cult lasting this long) that has (at the barest accounting) of over 160 years.

I suppose if J.S. jr hadn't gotten so much friction from the Christian communities on the way West, he'd have settled his cult somewhere East of Salt Lake, Utah.

I will grant you that there is substantial evidence that Joseph did wish to move the church further west. And that he foresaw that need. But there is also evidence that he knew he would not be leading the church.

Problem is that he and B.Y. afterwards were always at "logger heads" with the U.S. Government.

Citations please. One of the reasons the Church was expelled from MO is because of their potential vote against slavery. The problem arose in IL as a result from the huge block vote of the members of the Church. If you think politics is bad now, look at the newspapers, including my hometown, Quincy, IL, regarding the Church around election times. The newpaper's name is the Quincy Herald Whig. Most of the disagreement had really nothing to do with the Church, yes some did of course, granted, most of it actually came down to politics though.

Uncle Dale's Old Mormon Articles: Quincy Whig, Herald, etc. (1842)

JOSEPH SMITH, Lieutenant General of the Nauvoo Legion, has a proclamation in the last "Times and Seasons," directing the Mormons in this State to vote for the locofoco candidates for Governor and Lieut. Governor next August. This is, indeed, a high-handed attempt to ursurp power, and to tyranise over the minds of men.

Still remember reading how President Teddy Roosevelt demanded that the American flag be taken down from the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah.




You'd never know that there history was so anti-American as they portray this "apple pie/American flag" image to the public nowadays.

Citation please......all I get from bing is how Teddy was a friend to LDS church and anti-masonic websites.

Neophyte Mormons don't know all the deeper teachings/doctrines initially, but are gradually massaged into their introduction not unlike the old frog in the slowing warming water, that will inevitably end-up boiling them.

Nice spin of milk before toast thought.......gee, I've never seen that employed.../sarcasm

So many neophytes would flee from LDS membership if they were exposed to the plagarized freemasonry, oaths, hand grips/rituals that involve temple rites/initiations right at the beginning.

Actually, I'm classified neophyte Mormon, joined only 25 years ago, only active member starting 10 years ago.....while I'm not what I consider a good Mormon, but rather a "jack mormon"......I'm not running from our church....far from it. I'm actually walking, intentionally back to it.

So far as I've been able to deduce, you also take issue with Masonics, would I be correct?

This is how cults operate. You project a tame, unstrange, atmosphere/doctrine at first, and gradually introduce the weird stuff as your new member become more immersed in the church activities of service/work.

I'm sorry, but I must (and I just got done watching National Geographic channel on cults)........fall down on floor laughing so hard that I think I lost 10 pounds.

First thing you should know......toast is not w/held from the "milk" portion.....they too attend sacrament meetings and if they have toast questions, those questions are answered, when asked.

This is why so many Born Again Christians can get sucked into Mormonism. Outwardly it seems so safe, and seems to exude in certain ways, the fruits of the Spirt, in it's outward friendliness, and service to it's members.

Really, from my personal experience, converts come from those tending to be of the Catholic/Lutheran/Methodist persuasion. But then I only have my hometown experiences to go by. And we were (they are) a small community. *The town*

The word, "Worthy" is a real "corker", as Mormons use "worthiness" before God as their mainstay. This is why they react like deer in headlights when you try to explain the bible doctrine of "grace" to them. They deep down are striving to stay or become "worthy" before their god, yet God tells the "true" Christian that they are "worthy" based on Christ's work on the cross. Any "works" that the true Christian does is not out of a need to gain or keep their worthiness before God, but is a type of works that is a result of "gratitude", "love", and thanksgiving towards the One who saved them and gave them eternal life.

I disagree entirely. I have no problems with explaining worthiness.......We understand Biblical Grace in fact, we operate from it. Let me paraphrase it, Faith without works is not faith. Let me quote it, "Faith without works is dead". James 2:14-26

If we have faith, we strive to live by that faith and to show our faith, we strive to always be better and to do God's work. We cannot get to God with works without faith.....I believe them to be interchangeable.

Mormons seem to often be blinded to understanding this concept.

What is YOUR interpretation that we are so blinded towards?

*If words are missing it is because I accidentally hit insert button, not trying to misquote* why Truthspeaker can't understand Romans 10:17, as he has suppressed the "Truth" of God's word in his life, and is spiraling downward throught the Romans Chapter 1, degradation of his soul.

What is he not understanding about that verse? Faith brings people to God, but as James says, if one professes to have faith......one must show that faith.

Of course there is still "hope" for Truthspeaker, and other Mormons who suppress the Truth. God still loves them, and will allow them to degrade soulically in their lives until they hit "bottom", and hopefully realize that they haven't been living a life of "transparency" and a "contrite" heart condition towards God.

Whose truth are we surpressing? And who set you up as judge of our soul?

I can't judge your soul, nor can any other but the Savior, that is His dominion.

Paul is perfect example of a man who just knew he had the "truth", yet he assailed biblical Christians, had them arrested, stood by and gave praise to those that stoned biblical Christians to death, because he was just so certain that he had the truth.

Frome thence onward, Paul was a trully changed man.

Can I ask you what denomination you might be? My father-in-law, a great man with many foibles, raised in a Baptist family who became a Pentecostal preacher viewed Paul as the best of all the Apostles....and that's what I also get from my friends of both denominations as well.

Yet it took being knocked off his mount on his way to Damascus, and having the ressurrected Christ intervene directly in his life and show him/Paul how he was fight against the true Christ.

All that passion to assail God's people, was channeled into passion to proclaim the very Gospel, that Mormons say is corrupted by a non-omnipotent, weak mormon god, who couldn't protect his word to mankind, and needed a second try, via Moroni the angel, with the Golden plates written in "reformed Heiroglyphics".

Wow, and your "God" was so strong that He had to take His power back from Catholics, I am assuming, so as to give you His true word? I honestly don't understand your point in this paragraph.

I've asked and asked, why God would communicate to Moses in Moses' tongue/language via the tablets, yet to J.S. jr. it was "reformed heiroglyphics", to an "english" speaking nation/people?

Have you talked to the people of Jewish faith? And the different forms of written word used? Moses' tongue? Hebraic......in New Testament, Aramaic.....?

Are you attempting to assert that the writing (language), that conveyed the word of the Lord, never changed?

One ponders, and in some ways J.S. Jr's having it in an unknown tongue kept an exclusivity of the translation to himself and his alleged cohorts.

And yet there are protestant denominations that believe there is a tongue of God/Angels, that is only manifest through the power of tongues. Are they too, as you termed it earlier, cults?

Also, to this day, experts in ancient Egyptology have yet to find any evidence of a "reformed heiroglyphics" written language.

And it took years to be able to find the Rosetta Stone, to understand a language millenia's old. Your point?

Truthspeaker disagrees with me about "faith". He doesn't understand that faith is built upon, a "confidence" that the individual has with whatever that particular understanding is.

Thus because his understanding of faith, as outlined in NT, differs from yours, his is deficient?

For instance, when I sit down in a chair, I trust or have "faith" in the one who built the chair, or I will not want to sit in that chair. I am sitting in that chair trusting that it won't collapse, based on my confidence in the chair-builder. That is faith. It is not based on visions, feelings, dreams, etc..., but solid evidence presented before-hand.

Ah, but wouldn't you assert that Christ's life on earth and His "works" provided that basis, but yet He wasn't trusted by the Jewish community, as a whole. Was Isiah's word's trusted by what he showed beforehand? What about Noah?

People who believe biblically in Christ for Salvation, are trusting in the evidences presented in the bible by Paul, Peter, Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, Apollos, Steven, and of course Jesus Himself.

See above

Are these biblical evidence based solely on miracles, or evidenciary things.

Ummm, Our Lord and Savior.

Paul said that over 500 were still alive and kicking when he wrote one of his epistles, who saw Christ crucified, and also witnessed His ascension into the heavenlies to sit at the right hand of God the Father. It only takes 2 or more eye-witnesses to convict a person in court, yet withing the bible we have myriads of eye-witnesses of Christ's existence.

I know "our" evidences have already been provided in this thread.....including those who fell away but never denounced the happenings.

That is faith based on evidences, not dreams that say, "Mormonism is the truth.", nor "warm fuzzies in the soul" that make us feel good about being Mormon.


Mormons such as Truthspeaker and others fight and fight against the realities of biblical based "faith". They doggedly hold onto their "experiential" type phenomena's to validate their belief system.

No, actually, I've seen the opposite. And, yet I can also detect that if they provided/and have seen it in this thread, biblical evidence, it is called distortion, when providing logical, the "and the elect shall deceive thee"......in other words, it has been treated as a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

his is most dangerous, as Satan goes about like a roaring lion, deceiving if possible even the "elect" or true Christians.

And I didn't even have to scroll back in this thread to provide the "damned" portion.

Truth things the "born from above" or "Born again" statement by Jesus is "fuzzy" at most, and doesn't prove any point, yet over and over, Jesus said that what He gives is like thirst quenching water, that one will never need to thirst again. He told the Samaritan woman at the well that He had a water that would satisfy the human thirst forever. Even the Samaritan woman couldn't understand that this "water" was the Spirit of God that would come from God, and make residence in the True Christian's soul. That person would never again need to strive, to prove worthiness before God, but would be "reckoned" by God once and for-all, justified or righteous before His eyes. How? Cause His Son had taken their place on the cross, had taken sins past, present, and future, and sent them away as far as the East is to the West.

Do you not understand that these people showed the qualities that were lacking in the "faithful of His Kingdom"? That His sacrifice would make up the requirement of perfection from man?

The Mormon, must keep on working at being worthy. Truth knows that. He knows that their belief system, involves constant work at being good before God, in order to be worthy of ressurrection, and their blasphemous godhood.

No, all are worthy of resurrection.......ALL.....except the fallen from Heaven, those that have bodies on this earth at one time or another WILL be risen for the resurrection.

"There will be no other gods before Me!!!!!!!!" Not so with Mormons. They follow the same Isaiah delusional poem of Lucifer in claiming that they can rise to be equal to God.

We believe God's truth.......that we will share in His mansions...etc.

Lucifer was a beautiful angel, most likely the most striking of all that God made. He may have even been a Seraphin, that stood before God's throne, with his three pairs of wings flying in the air and throwing out praise upon praise to his Creator. Yet, there was free-will for the angelic host as well to continue to give God all credit and praise and glory for eternity. Lucifer led 1/3 of the angelic host in delusional rebellion against God. He now roams about the earth, creating and stirring up anti-biblical belief systems that will inevitably catch many human souls in this intricate web of deceit.

True, Lucifer was beautiful who led 1/3 to damnation, directly from Heaven. And creates deciet like no other.

Satan hates the human race, as it is intended to give glory to God and God alone.

True

Mormonism, Scientology, Bahai, Universalism, Watch Tower, Moonies, etc... all carry the finger prints of Lucifer, as they all diminish, or totally remove the deity of Christ. Not only that, some of these cults go so far as to raise created man to the level of godhood, which mimicks what Satan attempted in Isaiah.

Mormonism has diminished? Wow, I didn't know that. We have decreased the Savior in our practices? Wow......you really need to attend a sacrament meeting sometime to see how untrue that would be.

"There will be no other Gods before me." How plain and direct must God be. I would assume that this is one verse where the Mormons would claim corruption, as it flies in the face of their belief that they can all become gods one day.

No other Gods also include those that put mortal life in more importance, like money, TV and many other wordly encumberments.

We just take God at His word about being inheritors.

Also in finishing, is it not correct that in the Mormon husband-wife relationship, that it is the husband that "raises" his wife from the dead? If this is true, does this not go against Jesus' very statement that there is no marriage or giving of marriage between souls in heaven? Also, does this not raise man's importance above woman.

Matthew 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven....*rest* and whatsoever though shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I believe your statement about husband raises the wife from the dead refers to the Priesthood.......and as to it placing a man's importance above the woman, I would say you know NOTHING of our faith. Men and women are co-equals, just with different jobs assigned to them.

The Mormons have made what is a very simple gospel from God to man and have created a mishmas of contradictions, changes, plagarized from the bible writings, and the dangerous mind of it's latter day president/prophets.

In YOUR opinion.

God doesn't need to send a new-improved Gospel to man. The bible has sufficed for thousands of years, and when man let's the bible/God speak to him it suffices 100%.

If that is the case, why Protestantism?

 

[Christopher]

Just a few responses to add to Arawyn's.

Yes, yes, yes, J.S. jr. didn't make it past Illinois, as he died in that famous shoot-out with that mob at the jail house.

I am glad that you corrected your false statement, thank you. Although, you seemed to have replaced it with another one. I think a shootout would imply that both sides had guns (a gunfight). Joseph Smith and those with him were unarmed.

I've asked and asked, why God would communicate to Moses in Moses' tongue/language via the tablets, yet to J.S. jr. it was "reformed heiroglyphics", to an "english" speaking nation/people?

God communicated to the people in the Book of Mormon in their language. They wrote their experiences down in their language, which was different than English. Their writings had to be interpreted from their language to English for English-speaking people to understand them, just like the Bible had to be interpreted into English.

You say you have "asked and asked", but did you really listen to the answer(s)? Have you even read the Book of Mormon? Your question seems to show a lack of basic understanding about the Book of Mormon .

 

[Avatar4321]

I am glad that you corrected your false statement, thank you. Although, you seemed to have replaced it with another one. I think a shootout would imply that both sides had guns (a gunfight). Joseph Smith and those with him were unarmed.

Not true. He did have a six shooter revolver. He discharged it blindly into the hall way after his brother was murdered by the mob to delay them long enough to jump out the window and save the others. But Id still hardly call it a shoot out. But its just his way to justify the massacre. 6 bullets, 3 of which werent fired, against dozens in the mob... sounds like a shoot out to me... not...

I've asked and asked, why God would communicate to Moses in Moses' tongue/language via the tablets, yet to J.S. jr. it was "reformed heiroglyphics", to an "english" speaking nation/people?

God communicated to the people in the Book of Mormon in their language. They wrote their experiences down in their language, which was different than English. Their writings had to be interpreted from their language to English for English-speaking people to understand them, just like the Bible had to be interpreted into English.

You say you have "asked and asked", but did you really listen to the answer(s)? Have you even read the Book of Mormon? Your question seems to show a lack of basic understanding about the Book of Mormon .

He has shown basic misunderstanding on a number of aspects. the Faith/works issue for example. But even this is seriously one of his weaker arguments... which is saying alot. The truth is God clearly communicated to Joseph in English. Just like He communicates to us in English. But the Bible was written in Hebrew, why? Because He spoke to the Israelites in Hebrew. And we need to translate it into English. According to his logic God should have spoken in English rather than translating the Bible into our language... Its ridiculous.

 

[Truthspeaker]

yes, yes, yes, J.S. jr. didn't make it past Illinois, as he died in that famous shoot-out with that mob at the jail house.

Yeah SOME SHOOTOUT! You act like Joseph Smith and Hyrum suddenly became Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid! A friend slipped a revolver to Joseph because he knew he would be assaulted by the mob. After two shots during the raid. The gun misfired and that was it. Two bullets (that found worthy bodies) versus 200 men painted black with murderous intent? Yeah some SOME SHOOTOUT!

You are a master at blowing things out of proportion.

Not quite all the way West to Utah..........Yes B.Y. had to lead the cult to the promised land of Salt Lake............

He prophesied it would happen and it did. Long before they made the trek west.

I suppose if J.S. jr hadn't gotten so much friction from the Christian communities on the way West, he'd have settled his cult somewhere East of Salt Lake, Utah.

Darn skippy, except you should have said "Christian" instead of Christian. Those great "bible loving Christians" were responsible for thousands of murdered men women and children.

Problem is that he and B.Y. afterwards were always at "logger heads" with the U.S. Government.

They absolutely were at logger heads because they consistently petitioned for legal redress of their grievances and the government continued to refuse help to the battered people.
That's why Joseph ran for president because he wanted to give power to the presidency to protect any oppressed group of citizens instead of deflecting the issue like Martin Van Buren who said to Joseph, "Your cause is just but I can do nothing for you. This is a state issue. And if I take up for you, I shall lose the vote of Missouri."(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith)
That left things wide open for the viscious governor of Missouri Governer Lilburn W. Boggs to lick his chops and order the "extermination of Mormons from the state."

Still remember reading how President Teddy Roosevelt demanded that the American flag be taken down from the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah.

I believe this to be a lie. I have never heard of the beloved President Roosevelt ordering us to take our American Flag down. He was one of the main proprietors of improving our image and help senator Reed Smoot retain his seat as they were good friends. Teddy Roosevelt was always kind to us and I demand you show me your source!

You'd never know that there history was so anti-American as they portray this "apple pie/American flag" image to the public nowadays.

You'd never know you were so off your rocker.

Neophyte Mormons don't know all the deeper teachings/doctrines initially, but are gradually massaged into their introduction not unlike the old frog in the slowing warming water, that will inevitably end-up boiling them.

Yeah whatever, there is not such thing as a neophyte mormon nowadays. All the dirty laundry has been aired. Newcomers to the religion are already aware of the well publicized smear campaigns against our church. People aren't as stupid as you think.

So many neophytes would flee from LDS membership if they were exposed to the plagarized freemasonry, oaths, hand grips/rituals that involve temple rites/initiations right at the beginning.

You have no proof of plagiarism again. You've already been proven wrong since the Book of Mormon quotes Isaiah saying his words are from Isaiah himself. Not plagiarism retard.

There is no plagiarism of freemasonry since actually the oaths are only slightly similar and quite different for the most part.
They keep on joining

This is how cults operate. You project a tame, unstrange, atmosphere/doctrine at first, and gradually introduce the weird stuff as your new member become more immersed in the church activities of service/work.

You claim to know so much about cults. But you consistently ignore the definition of a cult.

A system of specific religious beliefs or practices. Yes we're a cult. We're already past that. But we are a good cult.

This is why so many Born Again Christians can get sucked into Mormonism. Outwardly it seems so safe, and seems to exude in certain ways, the fruits of the Spirt, in it's outward friendliness, and service to it's members.

I don't know what else they are supposed to look for? Doing good is a shame according to you.

The word, "Worthy" is a real "corker", as Mormons use "worthiness" before God as their mainstay. This is why they react like deer in headlights when you try to explain the bible doctrine of "grace" to them. They deep down are striving to stay or become "worthy" before their god, yet God tells the "true" Christian that they are "worthy" based on Christ's work on the cross. Any "works" that the true Christian does is not out of a need to gain or keep their worthiness before God, but is a type of works that is a result of "gratitude", "love", and thanksgiving towards the One who saved them and gave them eternal life.

For the 1000th time. We get it that you don't like to do good. We get it that you believe in faith and cofession in Christ with your lips only. More power to you. Hold onto what you believe. We aren't trying to take that from you.
Just let us have our religion which teaches us to believe and to back it up with works.

Mormons seem to often be blinded to understanding this concept.

More like confused by it since it makes no sense to simply profess a belief in Christ and not do the things he commands. At least to us. So go ahead and believe your thing and we'll do ours.

This is why Truthspeaker can't understand Romans 10:17, as he has suppressed the "Truth" of God's word in his life, and is spiraling downward throught the Romans Chapter 1, degradation of his soul.

Ok, you think I'm spiraling down towards hell. I get that. But I totally understand Romans 10:17 and not too long ago printed the entire chapter so all could read and understand the context. We do understand it thoroughly. Just differently than you do.

Of course there is still "hope" for Truthspeaker, and other Mormons who suppress the Truth. God still loves them, and will allow them to degrade soulically in their lives until they hit "bottom", and hopefully realize that they haven't been living a life of "transparency" and a "contrite" heart condition towards God.

I hit bottom a long time ago. I've been on the rise ever since I accepted Christ in my life. I don't HOPE any more. I KNOW where I stand with God.

Paul is perfect example of a man who just knew he had the "truth", yet he assailed biblical Christians, had them arrested, stood by and gave praise to those that stoned biblical Christians to death, because he was just so certain that he had the truth.

This is hysterical!!!!!!!!!!! Paul never addressed a single "BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN" in his entire life. Neither did Jesus for that matter. Do you really think they were reading the Bible back then? The Bible wouldn't be printed for hundreds years. You must think the Bible is God itself! They never read the Bible. The read bits and pieces of scrolls from the old testament and other prophets of their time which were valued but not included in the later Bible. You simply don't GET that.
there is more to the world than your limited view of the Bible. there is MORE. The Bible is not the end, neither was it even the Beginning. There is so much more and you are missing out.
How could they be "Biblical" if they didn't read the Bible and in FACT read and cannonized other books OUTSIDE the Bible. If you want to keep clinging to the Bible Only Dogma, Go ahead. That's your belief. Not ours.

Frome thence onward, Paul was a trully changed man. All that passion to assail God's people, was channeled into passion to proclaim the very Gospel, that Mormons say is corrupted by a non-omnipotent, weak mormon god, who couldn't protect his word to mankind, and needed a second try, via Moroni the angel, with the Golden plates written in "reformed Heiroglyphics".

We never said God couldn't protect his word. He decided to let people have their freedom of choice to manipulate the Bible if they chose to. since God continues to clear up misconceptions by CONSTANTLY SPEAKING. God is quite strong as he wants to be.

I've asked and asked, why God would communicate to Moses in Moses' tongue/language via the tablets, yet to J.S. jr. it was "reformed heiroglyphics", to an "english" speaking nation/people?

You've asked and asked and then you have ignored and ignored my answer.

God spoke to the Nephites, Lamanites and Israelites in their language(Bible and Book of Mormon). Their prophets wrote in their language. In order for modern day people to read those languages of the past, they need to be translated Whoop a dee freakin do. What is the problem with that. Today, God speaks to his Modern Day Prophets in our modern language and they relay it to us in our language. There is no inconsistency in the way God works see Amos chapter 3 verse 7.(God always speaks to prophets.)
Since you are the one always saying God is the same yesterday today and forever why would he break his pattern?

One ponders, and in some ways J.S. Jr's having it in an unknown tongue kept an exclusivity of the translation to himself and his alleged cohorts.

I don't understand the english in this poorly constructed sentence.

Also, to this day, experts in ancient Egyptology have yet to find any evidence of a "reformed heiroglyphics" written language.

Professor Charles Anthon and the aforementioned Dr. Mitchell authorized the sample of the characters found on the plates.

Truthspeaker disagrees with me about "faith". He doesn't understand that faith is built upon, a "confidence" that the individual has with whatever that particular understanding is.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

For instance, when I sit down in a chair, I trust or have "faith" in the one who built the chair, or I will not want to sit in that chair. I am sitting in that chair trusting that it won't collapse, based on my confidence in the chair-builder. That is faith. It is not based on visions, feelings, dreams, etc..., but solid evidence presented before-hand

.

That is as "baloneyous" an analogy as I have ever heard. You could still see the freakin chair and how solid it looks. You still had to ACT by sitting. Faith would be like sitting in an invisible chair. You decide to sit in a chair that a trustworthy person has told you is there.

People who believe biblically in Christ for Salvation, are trusting in the evidences presented in the bible by Paul, Peter, Mark, Luke, Matthew, John, Apollos, Steven, and of course Jesus Himself.

Again you are emphasising the Book more than God. The Book is not infallible. If you think so then fine. I don't agree. I believe in Christ for my salvation. Not "biblically in Christ" for my salvation.

Are these biblical evidence based solely on miracles, or evidenciary things.

You are so confusing to the reader. What evidences are you talking about? Archaelogical or testimonial?

Paul said that over 500 were still alive and kicking when he wrote one of his epistles, who saw Christ crucified, and also witnessed His ascension into the heavenlies to sit at the right hand of God the Father. It only takes 2 or more eye-witnesses to convict a person in court, yet withing the bible we have myriads of eye-witnesses of Christ's existence.

Since you believe in eyewitnesses of the Risen Christ from people about 2000 years ago why not believe in eyewitnessed accounts of the Risen Christ from 200 years ago. The only difference is another 0.

I thought you were basing all your arguments on Archaeological evidences only not too long ago. Changing your tune are we?

That is faith based on evidences, not dreams that say, "Mormonism is the truth.", nor "warm fuzzies in the soul" that make us feel good about being Mormon.

How about eyewitness accounts from us? And since your "evidence" is really just a testimonial from ancient people, what makes you so sure they saw what they saw? Probably because your mom or dad or minister said so and you got a "warm fuzzy" yourself. that is how the Holy Ghost works. He always verifies what's true to everyone.

Mormons such as Truthspeaker and others fight and fight against the realities of biblical based "faith". They doggedly hold onto their "experiential" type phenomena's to validate their belief system.

No I don't. I don't fight agianst other people's opinions. I defend false attacks on my religion. I allow others their views. I don't fight against the bible either. I do reject your interpretations but I embrace mine.

This is most dangerous, as Satan goes about like a roaring lion, deceiving if possible even the "elect" or true Christians.

Quite right. You might watch your own back.

Truth things the "born from above" or "Born again" statement by Jesus is "fuzzy" at most,

Further proof you don't know how to read. I copied and pasted what the Bible actually says about John 3:5. It says "born of water" and not "born from above". You added that. I read the verse as it reads.

and doesn't prove any point, yet over and over, Jesus said that what He gives is like thirst quenching water, that one will never need to thirst again. He told the Samaritan woman at the well that He had a water that would satisfy the human thirst forever. Even the Samaritan woman couldn't understand that this "water" was the Spirit of God that would come from God, and make residence in the True Christian's soul.

If you interpret the "water" John tells Nicodemus about to mean something other than baptism, then go ahead. We understand it to mean Jesus was telling everyone they need to be baptized in water.
You to your opinion and me to mine.

The Mormon, must keep on working at being worthy. Truth knows that. He knows that their belief system, involves constant work at being good before God, in order to be worthy of ressurrection, and their blasphemous godhood.

Darn skippy except that we don't think it's blasphemous at all. since all fathers want their children to be as good or better than them. Why would God be any different if he truly loves us.

"There will be no other gods before Me!!!!!!!!" Not so with Mormons. They follow the same Isaiah delusional poem of Lucifer in claiming that they can rise to be equal to God.

Again, calm down there eighty-ball. We are not putting any gods before God. We are just trying to get behind him.

Lucifer was a beautiful angel, most likely the most striking of all that God made. He may have even been a Seraphin, that stood before God's throne, with his three pairs of wings flying in the air and throwing out praise upon praise to his Creator.

Real angels do not have wings in our teachings. Children of God are created in his image and therefore have human parts and not animal ones. Just saying.

Yet, there was free-will for the angelic host as well to continue to give God all credit and praise and glory for eternity. Lucifer led 1/3 of the angelic host in delusional rebellion against God. He now roams about the earth, creating and stirring up anti-biblical belief systems that will inevitably catch many human souls in this intricate web of deceit.

We believe as you do but they are demonic and not angelic even if they try to appear as an angel.

Satan hates the human race, as it is intended to give glory to God and God alone. Mormonism, Scientology, Bahai, Universalism, Watch Tower, Moonies, etc... all carry the finger prints of Lucifer, as they all diminish, or totally remove the deity of Christ. Not only that, some of these cults go so far as to raise created man to the level of godhood, which mimicks what Satan attempted in Isaiah.

Thanks for your opinion.

Also in finishing, is it not correct that in the Mormon husband-wife relationship, that it is the husband that "raises" his wife from the dead?

You have already asked this and been answered. It's not true. Jesus raises the dead. How many times have I said that. If he gives husbands the priviledge of calling for their wives from the dead in Christs name, it's not the husband with the power, it's Christ. Capeesh?

If this is true, does this not go against Jesus' very statement that there is no marriage or giving of marriage between souls in heaven?

No. Marriage is done here on the earth. Not in heaven. But He doesn't say marriages are not in force in heaven does he?

Also, does this not raise man's importance above woman.

Nope

The Mormons have made what is a very simple gospel from God to man and have created a mishmas of contradictions, changes, plagarized from the bible writings, and the dangerous mind of it's latter day president/prophets.

Yeah so simple that the Bible has been the cause of thousands of different churches because it's so simple and clear to everyone which church to join right?

God doesn't need to send a new-improved Gospel to man.

Your opinion. Not ours.

The bible has sufficed for thousands of years, and when man let's the bible/God speak to him it suffices 100%.

Last but certainly not most ignorant is this last pearl of yours. First the Bible hasn't even been around for 2000 years. It's been around in LATIN ONLY since the Nicean creed in 330 AD and only in the hands of Priests It was another 1000 years before the bible was first printed in english and a few copies made available to the public. it wasn't until the King James version was printed in 1611 that widescale reading began to happen.

It costed many lives and lots of christian blood to get this book to the point where it is today. That's because designing and corrupt priests didn't want people to think for themselves and made changes to it or eliminated portions of the book so that we would never find them.
Since we have been able to read the book there have been literally thousand of conflicting views on interpretation. How can you possibly say the book "sufficed"

Learn history and you will learn wisdom. It is clear God took no part in the confusion caused by the people's variations. that is because he decided to wait until he would call a prophet again. To show the people what happens when they are left to themselves.
Enter Joseph Smith.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Just a few responses to add to Arawyn's.

Yes, yes, yes, J.S. jr. didn't make it past Illinois, as he died in that famous shoot-out with that mob at the jail house.

I am glad that you corrected your false statement, thank you. Although, you seemed to have replaced it with another one. I think a shootout would imply that both sides had guns (a gunfight). Joseph Smith and those with him were unarmed.

I've asked and asked, why God would communicate to Moses in Moses' tongue/language via the tablets, yet to J.S. jr. it was "reformed heiroglyphics", to an "english" speaking nation/people?

God communicated to the people in the Book of Mormon in their language. They wrote their experiences down in their language, which was different than English. Their writings had to be interpreted from their language to English for English-speaking people to understand them, just like the Bible had to be interpreted into English.

You say you have "asked and asked", but did you really listen to the answer(s)? Have you even read the Book of Mormon? Your question seems to show a lack of basic understanding about the Book of Mormon .

slight correction Chris, he did get a revolver given to him. He fired two shots after Hyrum was killed. the gun malfunctioned after that. Fortunately the two bullets found good homes in the mobbers.

 

[Christopher]

Just a few responses to add to Arawyn's.

Yes, yes, yes, J.S. jr. didn't make it past Illinois, as he died in that famous shoot-out with that mob at the jail house.

I am glad that you corrected your false statement, thank you. Although, you seemed to have replaced it with another one. I think a shootout would imply that both sides had guns (a gunfight). Joseph Smith and those with him were unarmed.

I've asked and asked, why God would communicate to Moses in Moses' tongue/language via the tablets, yet to J.S. jr. it was "reformed heiroglyphics", to an "english" speaking nation/people?

God communicated to the people in the Book of Mormon in their language. They wrote their experiences down in their language, which was different than English. Their writings had to be interpreted from their language to English for English-speaking people to understand them, just like the Bible had to be interpreted into English.

You say you have "asked and asked", but did you really listen to the answer(s)? Have you even read the Book of Mormon? Your question seems to show a lack of basic understanding about the Book of Mormon .

slight correction Chris, he did get a revolver given to him. He fired two shots after Hyrum was killed. the gun malfunctioned after that. Fortunately the two bullets found good homes in the mobbers.

Thanks Truth, you are right.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are right about the firearm, truth, and wrong about him hitting anyone. He was firing blindly from behind the door and missed.

 

[Truthspeaker]

You are right about the firearm, truth, and wrong about him hitting anyone. He was firing blindly from behind the door and missed.

No, I am right about him hitting and killing two people. I was wrong when I said two shots. He actually did fire three before the 6-shooter malfunctioned. Joseph was a general and knew how to use a gun. He would never fire blindly. Here is the eyewitness account from John Taylor:
"I shall never forget the deep feeling of regard manifested in the countenance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed, 'oh my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, with a firm quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, pulling the six-shooter brother wheelock had left him from his pocket, opened the door slightly and snapped the pistol 6 times in succesion.Only three of the barrells however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, 2 of which I am informed, died."

 

[Avatar4321]

You are right about the firearm, truth, and wrong about him hitting anyone. He was firing blindly from behind the door and missed.

No, I am right about him hitting and killing two people. I was wrong when I said two shots. He actually did fire three before the 6-shooter malfunctioned. Joseph was a general and knew how to use a gun. He would never fire blindly. Here is the eyewitness account from John Taylor:
"I shall never forget the deep feeling of regard manifested in the countenance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed, 'oh my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, with a firm quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, pulling the six-shooter brother wheelock had left him from his pocket, opened the door slightly and snapped the pistol 6 times in succesion.Only three of the barrells however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, 2 of which I am informed, died."

And President Taylor was informed incorrectly. No one died because of Joseph.

 

[Truthspeaker]

You are right about the firearm, truth, and wrong about him hitting anyone. He was firing blindly from behind the door and missed.

No, I am right about him hitting and killing two people. I was wrong when I said two shots. He actually did fire three before the 6-shooter malfunctioned. Joseph was a general and knew how to use a gun. He would never fire blindly. Here is the eyewitness account from John Taylor:
"I shall never forget the deep feeling of regard manifested in the countenance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed, 'oh my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, with a firm quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, pulling the six-shooter brother wheelock had left him from his pocket, opened the door slightly and snapped the pistol 6 times in succesion.Only three of the barrells however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, 2 of which I am informed, died."

And President Taylor was informed incorrectly. No one died because of Joseph.

How do we really know then if anyone died? I'm disappointed if he didn't take out a few mobsters. Oh well, it's not that important to his martyrdom anyways.

We DO know that the mobster who tried to decapitate the head of Joseph Smith was miraculously struck dead when he raised his sword to cut Joseph.

 

[John Lemmon]

Truth is about mormons that they are totally devoid of intelligent thoughts and live in a fantasy world populated by mental midgets and pedophiles.
Discuss.

 

[HUGGY]

No, I am right about him hitting and killing two people. I was wrong when I said two shots. He actually did fire three before the 6-shooter malfunctioned. Joseph was a general and knew how to use a gun. He would never fire blindly. Here is the eyewitness account from John Taylor:
"I shall never forget the deep feeling of regard manifested in the countenance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed, 'oh my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, with a firm quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, pulling the six-shooter brother wheelock had left him from his pocket, opened the door slightly and snapped the pistol 6 times in succesion.Only three of the barrells however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, 2 of which I am informed, died."

And President Taylor was informed incorrectly. No one died because of Joseph.

How do we really know then if anyone died? I'm disappointed if he didn't take out a few mobsters. Oh well, it's not that important to his martyrdom anyways.

We DO know that the mobster who tried to decapitate the head of Joseph Smith was miraculously struck dead when he raised his sword to cut Joseph.

We DO know that the mobster who tried to decapitate the head of Joseph Smith was miraculously struck dead when he raised his sword to cut Joseph.


You mormans are so full of shit. You have miricles for every occasion don't you?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Actually you can talk to different Mormons from different Wards and they will give you there version of the interpretation of the book of mormon and it will be different then what the last brother or sister said. Additionally a lot of Mormons who come to Utah become disenchanted by the snootiness and cliques the Church has out here. It really depends on who you know who you talk to and how they interpret what the church says.

Well actually it doesn't depend on what interpretations people have. There are going to be a lot of mormons who will be in a lot more trouble at the judgment day than non-mormons because they fail to listen to the prophet and the official translations of all doctrines. there is no room for interpretation of official doctrines. Every thing I will say will be based on official church doctrine, otherwise I will say it is just my opinion.

Dogmas? Doctrines? Oh, Truth, you are so consisent in your inconsistency. Doctrines and dogmas change all the time in the LDS and other Mormon denominations. Just study the history.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are right about the firearm, truth, and wrong about him hitting anyone. He was firing blindly from behind the door and missed.

No, I am right about him hitting and killing two people. I was wrong when I said two shots. He actually did fire three before the 6-shooter malfunctioned. Joseph was a general and knew how to use a gun. He would never fire blindly. Here is the eyewitness account from John Taylor:
"I shall never forget the deep feeling of regard manifested in the countenance of brother Joseph as he drew nigh to Hyrum, and leaning over him exclaimed, 'oh my poor, dear brother Hyrum!' He, however, instantly arose, with a firm quick step, and a determined expression of countenance, pulling the six-shooter brother wheelock had left him from his pocket, opened the door slightly and snapped the pistol 6 times in succesion.Only three of the barrells however, were discharged. I afterwards understood that two or three were wounded by these discharges, 2 of which I am informed, died."

Brother Taylor had false memory syndrome. He had been shot to doll rags in the first flurry of shots that struck him and Hyrum down. Willard Richards was attending to the LDS casaulties. No medical records or other primary source materials exist to prove your wild-eyed assertion, Truth.