The two ends of the political spectrum are killing us

[task0778]

But it's unlikely that it was bad words that were the main cause of the war. What's happening to the US must have much more profound causes than that.

Not a main cause, maybe a contributing cause? Fuel on the fire sorta, gets more people inflamed. Wars are usually not started until enough people are incensed enough to go shoot somebody.

 

[Mac-7]

Not a main cause, maybe a contributing cause? Fuel on the fire sorta, gets more people inflamed. Wars are usually not started until enough people are incensed enough to go shoot somebody.

Thanks to libs America is getting closer to that all the time

 

[Foxfyre]

Political overcompensation is the new Great American Pastime.

A few years ago, some of us were warning the Left: You're going too far with Political Correctness and Identity Politics. You're going too far screaming RACIST at every last fucking thing that moves. You're going too far lowering standards and expectations for people based solely on their skin color. You're going too far in normalizing sexual disorders such as gender dysphoria. You're going too far in putting your agenda in schools. You're going too far in disallowing conservative voices on college campuses. And most of all, you're going too far in attacking, intimidating and penalizing people in everyday life for saying things you don't like.

There's going to be pushback, we said. You're overcompensating, we said. This stuff is not right, we said. I only said that a few thousand times here, to be met with attacks from the Left. (By the way, a zillion examples of that available upon request via the search function)

So now we see the pushback, with this Neanderthal, middle school bully-approach to the culture from the Right. This is the pushback we warned about -- although, admittedly, even worse than I imagined. And this sucker has legs, just like your weaponized PC and Identity Politics did. They're making laws and attacking and intimidating. Gee, what a coincidence. What Deja Vu we're seeing, huh? Go figure!

And most amazing of all, this pushback included the election of a petulant child, an obvious con man, an orange buffoon, in 2016, and all the fucking unbelievable madness that has followed.

No doubt there will be pushback to this, too. Back and forth. Back and forth. More and more damage.

Ideological politics poisons everything it touches. Now it's putting this country at risk of falling apart. Great job, gang. You're BOTH so much like those you hate, and you just won't stop.

Young Republicans Are Begging Party Elders To Stop Saying 'Woke'

The next generation of conservatives support their party's culture wars. But they hate the way they describe them

www.rollingstone.com

In all honesty I don't know the last time I saw a Democrat other than maybe Tulsi Gabbard, Krysten Sinema, Joe Manchin or maybe one or two more warn Democrats that they were too extreme or had gone too far in much of anything. That kind of moderate Democrat goes back at least to the Clinton Administration and mostly back to the days of Walter Cronkite.

Your party has been taken over by the likes of AOC, Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders et al who demanded that the DNC was not extreme enough and have pushed it further and further left into the ridiculous zone.

Yes the right has some nutcases too--people we really wish would leave the RNC and Patriot movement and form their own party or something--but those people do not control us or influence us in any way. They are not part of the Patriot movement but small radical fringe groups with little or no power.

Patriots are all about individual liberty, choice, options, opportunity, entrepreneurship, peace on Earth, values and customs that have served America and Americans well and provided stability, quality of life, and a piece of the American dream to all willing to work for it, i.e. a free, strong, prosperous America. We are human and sometimes make mistakes or go overboard, but we generally wise up and correct those instead of double downing on them.

Your side seems to be all about social engineering, bigger, more expensive, and more controlling government, open borders, confiscating wealth, more leniency in law enforcement, banning things, pushing things like transgendering, CRT, black history/studies/reparations that force black people to be separate from the rest of society and similar destructive policies.

I could go on and on with observations on both sides, but I think this makes my point.

 

[BlackSand]

I understand the anger BlackSand....And have said we are all human, but no one has said anything about being compelled to support stupid ideas....What I am saying is we need to debate in a principled way, and stick to our Constitution....What's wrong with that?.

.

Please do no mistake my general apathy towards the idea anything I post will make a dent ...
And really casual nature of approaching a discussion ... As being anger.

I am just Classical Liberal ... And Rugged Individualist ...
That's more than a little rough around the edges ...

I post the way I would speak to you if we were sitting on my back porch drinking a beer.
You just don't get to see the laughing and the smile.

I am not trying to fix the world ... Love People and Embrace the world around me ...
Just wish People would quit trying so hard to figure out how we can fuck things up trying to make them better.

....

And for goodness sakes ... Everyone here is talking about how people want others to Comply with their Desires.
That's what Government does ... And just about everything we are talking about.

I am also a Strict Constructionist ... The Constitution has not changed in a while and still means what it always has.
People who have trouble interpreting it ... Are trying to make it say or mean something it doesn't.

There's no debate ... If they want to say something else ... They can make it say something else.
Our Founders left us a map and blueprint for doing so.

You don't have to wander around the Halls of Congress ... Or go begging the Courts ...
Take it to the People ... Empower the People.

And if you do ... In the end ... It's going to require more than 51% ...

.​

 

[Foxfyre]

.

Please do no mistake my general apathy towards the idea anything I post will make a dent ...
And really casual nature of approaching a discussion ... As being anger.

I am just Classical Liberal ... And Rugged Individualist ...
That's more than a little rough around the edges ...

I post the way I would speak to you if we were sitting on my back porch drinking a beer.
You just don't get to see the laughing and the smile.

I am not trying to fix the world ... Love People and Embrace the world around me ...
Just wish People would quit trying so hard to figure out how we can fuck things up trying to make them better.

....

And for goodness sakes ... Everyone here is talking about how people want others to Comply with their Desires.
That's what Government does ... And just about everything we are talking about.

I am also a Strict Constructionist ... The Constitution has not changed in a while and still means what it always has.
People who have trouble interpreting it ... Are trying to make it say or mean something it doesn't.

There's no debate ... If they want to say something else ... They can make it say something else.
Our Founders left us a map and blueprint for doing so.

You don't have to wander around the Halls of Congress ... Or go begging the Courts ...
Take it to the People ... Empower the People.

And if you do ... In the end ... It's going to require more than 51% ...

.​

It's simple really. The U.S. Constitution intended for the central government to do ONLY what it HAS to do to provide the common defense and for the general welfare (meaning EVERYBODY's welfare and not individual groups.) Otherwise it would enact only such laws and legislation as is necessary for the various states to function as one nation and not do physical or material violence to each other.

Everything else was to be left to the people to be able to organize themselves into whatever sorts of societies they wished to have and live, work, and play as they chose short of violating the unalienable rights of others. That means if they want a narrow minded judgmental theocracy, they can have that. If they want a lawless free for all dog eat dog hellfire society, they can have that.

But as people make mistakes, get it wrong, have to backup and try something different, societies left to their liberties generally arrive at consensus (social contract) of what is the best way for everybody. And pretty much all adopt basically the same solid values and customs that make for peaceful, secure, prosperous towns, cities, states.

When the government meddles and takes from Peter to buy support and votes from Paul, it screws up all of that in very bad ways.

 

[j-mac]

.

What did President Reagan say in regard to entertaining ignorant crap ... For the sake of discussing how ignorant it is ...
In attempts to appear you should be discussing the stupid shit to start with?

Because in general ... That's not really the over-all take-away I got from President Reagan ...
Granted, I was young and don't remember him well ...

.​

Well, if it’s that ignorant, it doesn’t deserve a response, right?

 

[j-mac]

.

Please do no mistake my general apathy towards the idea anything I post will make a dent ...
And really casual nature of approaching a discussion ... As being anger.

I am just Classical Liberal ... And Rugged Individualist ...
That's more than a little rough around the edges ...

I post the way I would speak to you if we were sitting on my back porch drinking a beer.
You just don't get to see the laughing and the smile.

I am not trying to fix the world ... Love People and Embrace the world around me ...
Just wish People would quit trying so hard to figure out how we can fuck things up trying to make them better.

....

And for goodness sakes ... Everyone here is talking about how people want others to Comply with their Desires.
That's what Government does ... And just about everything we are talking about.

I am also a Strict Constructionist ... The Constitution has not changed in a while and still means what it always has.
People who have trouble interpreting it ... Are trying to make it say or mean something it doesn't.

There's no debate ... If they want to say something else ... They can make it say something else.
Our Founders left us a map and blueprint for doing so.

You don't have to wander around the Halls of Congress ... Or go begging the Courts ...
Take it to the People ... Empower the People.

And if you do ... In the end ... It's going to require more than 51% ...

.​

Totally agree

 

[BlackSand]

It's simple really. The U.S. Constitution intended for the central government to do ONLY what it HAS to do to provide the common defense and for the general welfare (meaning EVERYBODY's welfare and not individual groups.) Otherwise it would enact only such laws and legislation as is necessary for the various states to function as one nation and not do physical or material violence to each other.

Everything else was to be left to the people to be able to organize themselves into whatever sorts of societies they wished to have and live, work, and play as they chose short of violating the unalienable rights of others. That means if they want a narrow minded judgmental theocracy, they can have that. If they want a lawless free for all dog eat dog hellfire society, they can have that.

But as people make mistakes, get it wrong, have to backup and try something different, societies left to their liberties generally arrive at consensus (social contract) of what is the best way for everybody. And pretty much all adopt basically the same solid values and customs that make for peaceful, secure, prosperous towns, cities, states.

When the government meddles and takes from Peter to buy support and votes from Paul, it screws up all of that in very bad ways.

.

See Foxfyre ... We could discuss that ... And it is true.
But ... We already know that ... It's the other People who don't understand that get in the way.

Our current Federal Government is so far outside the 18 Enumerated Powers ... And Original Intents and Purposes ...
It almost makes discussing it irrelevant ...

Like technically ... There is nothing in the US Constitution that makes one Citizen ... Responsible for the Origin of Debt regarding another Citizen ...
Or grants the Federal Government the Power to make them responsible.
In that simple aspect alone ... There is a plethora of existing Legislation and Governance ... That is already out of bounds.

In a very simplistic way ... It goes back to Frederic Bastia's The Law ... His direct rebuttal to the Communist Manifesto.
Law begets Law ... Governance begets Governance ... And eventual Bureaucracy overwhelms Freedom, Liberty and Rights.

As we build a better Government ... Eventually it will rob us of everything.
We have to limit Federal Government ... And as you mentioned ... Deal with things in a more localized and/or communal manner.

Of course the Assclown in the Establishment on Capitol Hill ... Have successfully made that damn near impossible.
And ... It's really starting to infect our Federal Agencies ... That are completely out of the reach of the People.

.​

 

[Doug1943]

Not a main cause, maybe a contributing cause? Fuel on the fire sorta, gets more people inflamed. Wars are usually not started until enough people are incensed enough to go shoot somebody.

Okay, I wouldn't quarrel with that. Words do have power.
"They sharpen their tongues like swords and aim cruel words like deadly arrows."
[Psalm 64:3]
"

 

[BlackSand]

Well, if it’s that ignorant, it doesn’t deserve a response, right?

.

Are you suggesting that is what President Reagan said?
I mean you brought him up ... He never struck me as someone who entertained a lot of garbage.

And when he did ... Like making a deal with the Democrats for Amnesty in exchange Better Border Security ...
Do you think he should have Entertained that bullshit they pulled on him ...
Or just done whatever he could accomplish ... And taken care of better securing our Sovereign Borders?

I mean ... I am not suggesting the man was a Saint ...
But that was big mistake he should have never entertained.

.​

 

[scruffy]

That's a bullshit lie, straight up.

Oh, I'm sure the whit supremacists feel emboldened.

All three of them....

 

[scruffy]

Agreed, but the Rs are no different. Did you somehow fail to see who Trump surrounded himself with when he was potus? Did you fail to see all the neocon deep state actors in W’s administration?

Do you fail to see the enormous support of Biden’s proxy war by nearly all Rs in congress. Thus fully supporting deep state neocons and the MIC?

Right.

That is the swamp, that Trump was allegedly trying to drain.

 

[Billiejeens]

So your purpose was to trigger? Aren't you also proving how similar you are?

He literally is just trolling.

 

[scruffy]

The clock IS ticking. But it's not ticking because we are being nasty to each other. That's an effect, not a cause. A set of factors is causing the US to come apart. (I've got some ideas about some of them, but no overall explanation). The low level of our discourse is not an important cause (okay, everything is dialectical, and there is probably some positive feedback).

It's a mistake to look at communications issues as central to conflict. This is the error made by the great Alfred Korzybski, whose 'General Semantics' has a lot of good sense in it. (If you're not familiar with these people, you should check them out.). [ Alfred Korzybski - Wikipedia ] He thought WWI was caused by bad thinking on all sides and that rational thinking by everyone could prevent future wars. If only that were so.

Anyway, let's discuss/debate/argue/yell at each other. It can't hurt. And encourage our co-thinkers on each side to join in, leaving the insults aside.

And ... even enemies can reach agreements on things when both sides benefit. The Geneva Conventions, although not always scrupulously followed, were a step forward for humanity. Even during the Cold War, the US and USSR could agree on the allocation of international radio frequencies, and even agree to ban open-air nuclear testing.

And ... we've got a ways to go before things get really bad. When an AntiFa guy in Portland murdered one of our guys in cold blood, and the others laughed and cheered when they got the happy news, I suspect there were more than a few of our guys who thought about taking revenge. But the murderer met his end at the hands of the police, justice was done, and so far there has been no tit-for-tat -- let's hope it stays that way.

ZERO compromise with commies.

Sorry, but we know who those people are and how they operate.

Since the 40's this country spent TRILLIONS shooting commies on sight.

I don't see any reason to stop.

Commies are murderers and thieves.

 

[francoHFW]

You are entitled to you opinion

But you are blind if you dont think Mac1958 is a partisan lib

you too macs confuse the heck out of me. and my name starts with Mac.... so if you are the brainwashed misinformed conservative, you may answer the question LOL

 

[francoHFW]

ZERO compromise with commies.

Sorry, but we know who those people are and how they operate.

Since the 40's this country spent TRILLIONS shooting commies on sight.

I don't see any reason to stop.

Commies are murderers and thieves.

the only communists in the world are in China North korea vietnam and Cuba with a gun to their heads.... being for all the benefits of citizenship that every other modern country has is not communism, it just means we're not brainwashed by greedy rich swine like the GOP base is...

 

[Foxfyre]

.

Are you suggesting that is what President Reagan said?
I mean you brought him up ... He never struck me as someone who entertained a lot of garbage.

And when he did ... Like making a deal with the Democrats for Amnesty in exchange Better Border Security ...
Do you think he should have Entertained that bullshit they pulled on him ...
Or just done whatever he could accomplish ... And taken care of better securing our Sovereign Borders?

I mean ... I am not suggesting the man was a Saint ...
But that was big mistake he should have never entertained.

.​

It was okay until the Dems refused to hold up their end of the bargain. So yeah, poor judgment on Reagan's part. He should have demanded a clause of no amnesty until you secure the border and pass permanent legislation that eliminates any advantage to anybody coming to America illegally.

It's like the dumb decision made by "George H.W. Bush" to break his 'no new taxes' pledge in return for the Democrats agreement to significantly cut the budget and lower the deficit. We got the new taxes and it cost Bush 43 his second term, but the Democrats never ever reduced the budget a dime.

 

[j-mac]

.

Are you suggesting that is what President Reagan said?
I mean you brought him up ... He never struck me as someone who entertained a lot of garbage.

And when he did ... Like making a deal with the Democrats for Amnesty in exchange Better Border Security ...
Do you think he should have Entertained that bullshit they pulled on him ...
Or just done whatever he could accomplish ... And taken care of better securing our Sovereign Borders?

I mean ... I am not suggesting the man was a Saint ...
But that was big mistake he should have never entertained.

.​

It was a mistake, one brought about by democrats making the deal outright lying about what they would do.

 

[Doug1943]

ZERO compromise with commies.

Sorry, but we know who those people are and how they operate.

Since the 40's this country spent TRILLIONS shooting commies on sight.

I don't see any reason to stop.

Commies are murderers and thieves.

In war, you have to think with your brain, not your intestines.

The US allied with Communists to destroy Nazis.

It allied with one kind of Communist to oppose another kind. We even trained Communist pilots to fly our fighter jets, which we gave to these Communists.

In June 1948 Yugoslavia broke off relations with the Stalinist Soviet Union. The country was immediately subjected to extreme political pressure from the Soviet Union and its Balkan neighbours, and the JRV's previous sources of aircraft, spares and fuel were cut off. The possibility of an invasion was taken seriously. The serviceability of JRV aircraft fell rapidly, with some aircraft being cannibalized to provide spares for the remainder.
The following year, 150 Republic F-47D Thunderbolt fighter-bombers were delivered from the USA under a Mutual Assistance Pact.
.
.
.
The first jet aircraft to be operated by the JRV, four Lockheed T-33A jet trainers, arrived on 10 March 1953 and were soon followed by the first of 229 Republic F-84G Thunderjet fighter-bombers. Serials for the Thunderjets were from 10501 to 10729. The first eight Thunderjets, all former 48 TFW aircraft, arrived at Batajnica on June 9, 1953. At the same time, a number of Yugoslav pilots underwent jet flying training in Germany and Colorado ...

[ Yugoslav Air Force - Wikipedia ]

In war, you do what you have to do in order to win.

You look for contradictions in the enemy camp and try to open them up. You try to pull neutrals into being allies, even weak allies. You try to pull the enemy's allies into neutrality.

The Left is not monolithic. There are millions of rank and file Democrats who are deeply uneasy about the direction the Democratic Party is taking with respect to our culture. They like trade unions and workers compensation and Obamacare, but don't want their children interfered with by sexual deviants.

There are Black people who want their children to go to decent schools, and know that School Choice is the only way this is going to happen.

We can win them. You'll probably recognize the names of a couple of Democrats who defected to the Republican side in the past : One starts with "R" and ends with "N". The other starts with "T" and ends with "P".

There are also people who are conscious hard Leftists, but who are at odds with various aspects of Democratic policy: for example, over the war in Ukraine. Others don't like the Left's attack on free speech. Others don't like its attacks on the idea of reason and science and objective truth..

We need to seek ways to work with these people. We have to do whatever it takes to win.

 

[dblack]

In war, you have to think with your brain, not your intestines.

There's the problem right there. We think of elections as wars.