The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[TheBrain]

Ask the Indians how the wording of "their lands and property will never be taken from them" worked out for them in The 1787 Congressional Land Act.

Politicians SAY anything for the masses. LAW is what counts.

Do you know what "found" means? What influence is? Is law the only thing that influenced the founding fathers? Of course not. What influenced their choice of law? THAT is the foundation of the country. The law IS the country. But they had principles that guided them in the development of the law, and those principles, per the founding fathers one and all, were Christian.

I have always stated that this country was influenced by Christianity.
How couldn't it be with a country full of Christians?
YOU are the one that confuses INFLUENCE with FOUNDED ON.
Nations are founded on LAW, not men and their various and changing religous practices, bias', views, prejudices, denominations and leaders that change with the wind.

Nations ARE founded on law, but those laws have to come from somewhere other than thin air.

 

[AllieBaba]

Ask the Indians how the wording of "their lands and property will never be taken from them" worked out for them in The 1787 Congressional Land Act.

Politicians SAY anything for the masses. LAW is what counts.

Do you know what "found" means? What influence is? Is law the only thing that influenced the founding fathers? Of course not. What influenced their choice of law? THAT is the foundation of the country. The law IS the country. But they had principles that guided them in the development of the law, and those principles, per the founding fathers one and all, were Christian.

I have always stated that this country was influenced by Christianity.
How couldn't it be with a country full of Christians?
YOU are the one that confuses INFLUENCE with FOUNDED ON.
Nations are founded on LAW, not men and their various and changing religous practices, bias', views, prejudices, denominations and leaders that change with the wind.

You're an idiot.
Yes we have a foundation of laws.

What is the foundation of those laws? The founding fathers SAID THEY WERE APPLYING CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE as they structured the country. The Declaration states the founding principles...and says clearly that God grants the rights that the government is beholden to support. So is it your stance that they were lying, and the Declaration isn't a founding document?

 

[AllieBaba]

TRANSLATION: “Daggonnit. I’ve just been caught in my own trap.”



I don’t care what monarchies believed about civil law. Nor did I ask you for the English monarchical view of it.

Answer the question: What was the Founders’ view of civil law vis-à-vis Divine Law?



If you’re going to attempt to characterize my arguments, then get it right.

Before I even get to that, let’s take a look at exactly what is “FALSE AND A BOGUS FRAUD,” shall we?

You tried to say that Patrick Henry and his supporters made the statement that the nation was founded on Christian tenets. At that point, you claim, the Founders then disagreed with that ideal and “ran them off.”

(Freudian slip. Henry IS a Founder, in contrast to what Gadawg’s verbiage implied.)

In any case, as has been explained in my last post, your characterization of events...

Never happened.

Now, back to your misrepresentation of my post. Here is exactly what I said, “the Founders were struggling with specific issues relating to governmental aid to religious institutions, not overarching issues of religious foundations in government. Jefferson and Madison believed that state financial aid to religious institutions would inevitably lead to another Church-State. Patrick Henry, among others, believed that as long as one denomination was not favored over the over, there was nothing wrong with state aid.”

I later went on to say, “...they disagreed over the extent to which religious institutions should receive government aid (and would struggle with this issue, by the way, through several administrations). They were specifically concerned with how government aid might affect 1) The rise of another Church-State (which some territories had already created), and 2) The governmental promotion of one Christian denomination over the other. That’s it. That’s all. It was in no way some sort of ‘religion has no place in government’ ideal as you have attempted to represent here.”

So, where exactly did I say anything about some institutions getting aid and others not?

Did anyone else notice that Gadawg avoided addressing any of the points in my quote?



First of all, I didn’t say anything about what they decided; I defined for you the parameters of their debate. You’ve mischaracterized my words again.

Secondly, if you are referring to federal aid, you are correct. However, you are claiming more than that. You are claiming the Founders believed religion and government are mutually exclusive. For the present, we’ll ignore the voluminous writings that directly contradict that because I want you to answer this:

If the Founders’ aim was to get God out of government, why was other financial aid at the state level for religious institutions permitted?

(For those interested in the history of this issue, it is far from having being been decided and “ENDED,” as some attempt to claim. The Supreme Court has traditionally ruled in favor of the more strict Jefferson/Madison view, while over the past few decades the Henry/Monroe view has gained more favor. In more recent years, the Court has been more or less equally divided.)



Really? You mean the Founders didn’t want another Church-State? I’m shocked.



Please, make up your mind already. You expended a large amount of effort in this thread claiming we couldn’t trust their public statements (well, you know, when they conflicted with your own views). Now, you’re telling us to listen to them? So, which is it?

And hey, while we’re on the subject of public statements, James Madison understood very well the whole God-Government-Law-Citizen interrelationship.

James Madison - 1785
“Before any man can be considered as a member of Civil Society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe.”

James Madison - 1825
“The belief in a God All Powerful wise and good, is so essential to the moral order of the World and to the happiness of man, that arguments which reinforce it cannot be drawn from too many sources nor adapted with too much solicitude...”

James Madison - 1778
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it...[but] upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”

I seem to recall you citing as proof that we are not founded on Christian tenets a list of Founders’ sins as evidence “that’s not where their heads were at.” I put to you this: if the Laws of God are not where your head is at, do you study New Testament doctrines? Do you study arguments for one side and the other? Do you make notes on these things, in your own handwriting, and in your own, personal Bible? I think not.

James Madison re: Acts 19:32 and the Calvinist tenet of Perseverance
“Believers who are in a State of Grace, have need of the word of God for their Edification and Building up therefore implies a possibility of falling. V. 32”



Indeed.



Exactly. Keep the government out of church affairs; Don’t tell me what to believe; Don’t tell me where to worship; Don’t tell me whether to worship. This is, of course, in stark contrast to some sort of exclusion of the church’s morality, virtue, and ethics from government and law. In short, get the government out of church, NOT get religious virtue out of government. Do you willfully confuse these things?

Oh, and let’s not leave Pre-Constitutional New Hampshire law just yet.

New Hampshire Government - August 4, 1639
"Considering with ourselves the holy Will of God and our own Necessity that we should not live without wholesome Lawes and Civil Government among us of which we are altogether destitute; do in the name of Christ and in the Sight of God combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such Government as shall be to our best discerning agreeable to the Will of God."

While New Hampshire law may be an excellent indication of the social mindset regarding God and government and its influence on civil law, it was in fact Roger Ludlow’s 1639 Constitution of Connecticut (a.k.a. Fundamental Orders of Connecticut) that served as the model for the US Constitution.

Explain for us, please, what directive was the Connecticut framing committee charged with?

Hey, no worries. I’ll field this one for you myself:
To make the laws as near as possible to the Law of God.

Hmmmmm....



I’d like to encourage the members of this forum to decide for themselves exactly whose posts match that description.


Now, back to the questions you avoided. Please, answer for us the following:

If the Founders did not approve of governmental promotion of Christianity, and never implemented it, explain the 1787 Congressional Land Act. Why did Jefferson extend it three times? Why did he not view it as a violation of his own separation of church and state?

A joint resolution of the House and Senate officially sanctioned 1983 as The Year of the ______?

George Washington instituted Thanksgiving as a federal holiday in 1789. For what purpose?

In 1854, Congress passed a resolution including verbiage defining what they felt was of extreme importance to our governmental system. What was so important?

Ask the Indians how the wording of "their lands and property will never be taken from them" worked out for them in The 1787 Congressional Land Act.

Politicians SAY anything for the masses. LAW is what counts.

In other words: Actions speak louder than words......something that apparently Allie is in full avoidance mode over.

Yeah, that's it.

 

[del]

Do you know what "found" means? What influence is? Is law the only thing that influenced the founding fathers? Of course not. What influenced their choice of law? THAT is the foundation of the country. The law IS the country. But they had principles that guided them in the development of the law, and those principles, per the founding fathers one and all, were Christian.

I have always stated that this country was influenced by Christianity.
How couldn't it be with a country full of Christians?
YOU are the one that confuses INFLUENCE with FOUNDED ON.
Nations are founded on LAW, not men and their various and changing religous practices, bias', views, prejudices, denominations and leaders that change with the wind.

You're an idiot.
Yes we have a foundation of laws.

What is the foundation of those laws? The founding fathers SAID THEY WERE APPLYING CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE as they structured the country. The Declaration states the founding principles...and says clearly that God grants the rights that the government is beholden to support. So is it your stance that they were lying, and the Declaration isn't a founding document?

when did god become exclusively christian?


fail

 

[AllieBaba]

Yes, del, I'm sure they were referring to one of the non-Christian gods.

Particularly given the fact that they said repeatedly they were talking about the Christian one.

 

[del]

Yes, del, I'm sure they were referring to one of the non-Christian gods.

Particularly given the fact that they said repeatedly they were talking about the Christian one.

except they never did. they refer to a creator and to god. there's no mention of christ anywhere.

repeat fail

 

[Uncensored2008]

Don't worry...I did not take it as such. But I cannot help but notice you running from my simple question...Do you believe "Actions Speak Louder than Words"...again.

You're an idiot, bod.

You ask the same, stupid questions repeatedly. They've all been answered over and over. You've been utterly defeated on your assertion; 8ateman utterly crushed you with irrefutable evidence.

Do you REALLY think that mindlessly trolling Allie will make you look better? Really?

 

[AllieBaba]

Yes, del, I'm sure they were referring to one of the non-Christian gods.

Particularly given the fact that they said repeatedly they were talking about the Christian one.

except they never did. they refer to a creator and to god. there's no mention of christ anywhere.

repeat fail

We've already been over this. They said they were creating a government, based upon CHRISTIAN principle (the quotes are all through this thread) and for a CHRISTIAN people. Jefferson (I think it was he) said the government they were developing would not work except for a Christian population.

So fail yourself. You need to read the thread...and the material.

 

[Gadawg73]

I have always stated that this country was influenced by Christianity.
How couldn't it be with a country full of Christians?
YOU are the one that confuses INFLUENCE with FOUNDED ON.
Nations are founded on LAW, not men and their various and changing religous practices, bias', views, prejudices, denominations and leaders that change with the wind.

You're an idiot.
Yes we have a foundation of laws.

What is the foundation of those laws? The founding fathers SAID THEY WERE APPLYING CHRISTIAN PRINCIPLE as they structured the country. The Declaration states the founding principles...and says clearly that God grants the rights that the government is beholden to support. So is it your stance that they were lying, and the Declaration isn't a founding document?

when did god become exclusively christian?


fail

They believe the DOI is part of the law and call us idiots.

 

[AllieBaba]

no, I don't believe it's the law. I believe it's a founding document, and as such, should be taken along with the REAMS of statements by the founding fathers that establishes that they applied Christian principle to the foundation of the country.

Which is what the argument is. The idea that this country is founded SOLELY upon law is a false premise, a logical fallacy, and a lie.

 

[TheBrain]

Yes, del, I'm sure they were referring to one of the non-Christian gods.

Particularly given the fact that they said repeatedly they were talking about the Christian one.

except they never did. they refer to a creator and to god. there's no mention of christ anywhere.

repeat fail

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

 

[del]

Yes, del, I'm sure they were referring to one of the non-Christian gods.

Particularly given the fact that they said repeatedly they were talking about the Christian one.

except they never did. they refer to a creator and to god. there's no mention of christ anywhere.

repeat fail

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

 

[Lonestar_logic]

except they never did. they refer to a creator and to god. there's no mention of christ anywhere.

repeat fail

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

“The United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.”

–Congressional Resolution, September 10, 1782


Congress authorized the printing of the first American Bible.

 

[TheBrain]

except they never did. they refer to a creator and to god. there's no mention of christ anywhere.

repeat fail

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

Who said that the understanding of God meaning the Christian God was limited to the Bible? I merely stated that it BEGAN with the Gutenberg, you know - the first mass produced book, in ALL literature God is assumed to reference the Christian God.

Del Fail.

 

[Foxfyre]

except they never did. they refer to a creator and to god. there's no mention of christ anywhere.

repeat fail

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

Part of the founding documents? No. The Founding Fathers had plenty of ammunition of their own to include in those documents without plagiarizing the Bible. But a day or two ago I posted a series of quotations from the Founding Fathers demonstrating their belief that the government they conceived was inextricably bound with their religious faith.

Chuck Baldwin, pastor, radio host, and the candidate of the Constitution Party in 2008 expresses it like this:

The Declaration of Independence states, "[Men] are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." It also states that these rights are "self evident" and that they constitute the "Laws of Nature." These principles are taken directly from the Bible.

The Law of Nature can be viewed in Romans 2:14-16. That our Creator is the Author of life is seen in Genesis 2:7. That God, not government, grants liberty is seen in Galatians 5:1. The "pursuit of happiness" is found in Ecclesiastes 3:13.

Beyond that, virtually every one of the ten articles contained in the Bill of Rights has Biblical foundation.
Chuck Baldwin -- Bible Inspired America's Founding Documents

 

[bodecea]

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

“The United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.”

–Congressional Resolution, September 10, 1782


Congress authorized the printing of the first American Bible.

How very nice. So, the ordering of the printing of a American Bible PROVES that we are founded on Christian principles, eh? Let's be clear on the evidence you are presenting.

FYI...1782 is 5 years before the Constitution was written and set in place.

 

[del]

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

“The United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.”

–Congressional Resolution, September 10, 1782


Congress authorized the printing of the first American Bible.

that's nice.

let me know where the constitution required it.

oops, there was no constitution in 1782

have a nice day

 

[del]

Except that since the first Guttenberg Bible when god has been capitalized as God, it has ALWAYS been understood that the writer was referencing the Christian God, always and without exception until this thread.

Fail on your part.

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

Who said that the understanding of God meaning the Christian God was limited to the Bible? I merely stated that it BEGAN with the Gutenberg, you know - the first mass produced book, in ALL literature God is assumed to reference the Christian God.

Del Fail.

only by nitwits like you, or don't jews and muslims write books?

failing like a mexican whore in a piss stream

 

[Lonestar_logic]

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

“The United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.”

–Congressional Resolution, September 10, 1782


Congress authorized the printing of the first American Bible.

How very nice. So, the ordering of the printing of a American Bible PROVES that we are founded on Christian principles, eh? Let's be clear on the evidence you are presenting.

FYI...1782 is 5 years before the Constitution was written and set in place.

Did I say that it proved we were founded on Christian principles?

No I did not.

Nothing was said about the Constitution.

I simply laid out the fact that the Aitken Bible is the only Bible printing ever called for by an act of the United States Congress.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

that'd be good to know if the bible was a part of the founding documents.

extended fail by the whizzer

“The United States in Congress assembled highly approve the pious and laudable undertaking of Mr. Aitken, as subservient to the interest of religion, as well as an instance of the progress of arts in this country, and being satisfied from the above report of his care and accuracy in the execution of the work, they recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States, and hereby authorize him to publish this recommendation in the manner he shall think proper.”

–Congressional Resolution, September 10, 1782


Congress authorized the printing of the first American Bible.

that's nice.

let me know where the constitution required it.

oops, there was no constitution in 1782

have a nice day

Show me where anyone has made that claim.