The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Sky Dancer]

Sky


WHO said theocracy? Avatar said values? there is a difference, a big one, no?

Deism is not Judeo-Christianity. We are NOT a Christian nation. If we were we would be a theocracy.

Sky, I don't think anyone is saying the us is a theocracy, just because they say it was founded with Judeo/Christian VALUES.....not to say that some fundamentalists may wish it were a theocracy at times.

what is being said and should be considered is that the founding Fathers were not in a vacuum....

MOST were Christians with a few Deists in there that were signers of the constitution/declaration and in addition to this, one living in this era were the citizens the founders were giving these rights to, they WERE CHRISTIANS with Christian values the elite and the poor....the baker, the launderer, the grocer, the farmer the doctor, the mayors and governors, the Intelect throughout the country being formed were mostly Christians....even if one were an athiest or deist in religious beliefs they could not help but being influenced by their environment, by their surroundings and in the ways their communities functioned imo.

that's all that is being said by me on this topic...to deny this is just plain silly...again, imo.

Care

I disagree. We are NOT a Christian nation. Not then, not now. The founding fathers were deists.


Deism has no church and no official organization, hence, it is not considered a religion. It is more a reason-based view of religion in general. Deism is sometimes referred to as a religious philosophy or a religious outlook. In general, Deism did not see Christ as the Son of God, did not believe in the Trinity, had no strong belief in miracles, and had no belief in atonement or resurrection. The Bible was not considered “sacred text” among most Deists, although most Deists were (like Franklin) Christian-friendly.
http://www.earlyamericanhistory.net/founding_fathers.htm

 

[AllieBaba]

And back to square one.
Yes, we are a Christian nation. We are made up primarily of Christians, and our government was built and is maintained with the application of Christian principles.

 

[Sky Dancer]

We are NOT a Christian nation. That is a myth promalgated by fundamentalists seeking to establish a Christian theocracy. America is a plurality. We have no state religion, Christian or otherwise. We have laws protecting our freedom to practice religion or not be oppressed by it.

Let's keep it that way.

 

[AllieBaba]

Do you sometimes confuse meditation with messageboarding? Because you get into these weird mantras.

Sky..saying it over and over won't make it true. Not in this instance.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The primary leaders of the so-called founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists. Deism was a philosophical belief that was widely accepted by the colonial intelligentsia at the time of the American Revolution. Its major tenets included belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems and belief in a supreme deity who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws. The supreme God of the Deists removed himself entirely from the universe after creating it. They believed that he assumed no control over it, exerted no influence on natural phenomena, and gave no supernatural revelation to man. A necessary consequence of these beliefs was a rejection of many doctrines central to the Christian religion. Deists did not believe in the virgin birth, divinity, or resurrection of Jesus, the efficacy of prayer, the miracles of the Bible, or even the divine inspiration of the Bible.

These beliefs were forcefully articulated by Thomas Paine in Age of Reason, a book that so outraged his contemporaries that he died rejected and despised by the nation that had once revered him as "the father of the American Revolution." To this day, many mistakenly consider him an atheist, even though he was an out spoken defender of the Deistic view of God. Other important founding fathers who espoused Deism were George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe.

The Christian Nation Myth

 

[Dr Grump]

Sky, as the old adage goes, arguing with Allie is like arguing with a pig. It's pointless because the pig is ignorant and dumb, and it annoys the pig...You are in a lose-lose situation. The good thing is right-wing, Christian neocon whackjobs are easily identified. The pity is, they should have to take some sort of IQ test to allowed to be vote....

 

[Sky Dancer]

The US Treaty with Tripoli


Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.

Annals of Congress, 5th Congress

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

 

[Avatar4321]

We are NOT a Judeo Christian theocracy.

That would be because we are a Republic and not a Theocracy.

A first grader knows that.

 

[Avatar4321]

Deism is not Judeo-Christianity. We are NOT a Christian nation. If we were we would be a theocracy.

Sky, I don't think anyone is saying the us is a theocracy, just because they say it was founded with Judeo/Christian VALUES.....not to say that some fundamentalists may wish it were a theocracy at times.

what is being said and should be considered is that the founding Fathers were not in a vacuum....

MOST were Christians with a few Deists in there that were signers of the constitution/declaration and in addition to this, one living in this era were the citizens the founders were giving these rights to, they WERE CHRISTIANS with Christian values the elite and the poor....the baker, the launderer, the grocer, the farmer the doctor, the mayors and governors, the Intelect throughout the country being formed were mostly Christians....even if one were an athiest or deist in religious beliefs they could not help but being influenced by their environment, by their surroundings and in the ways their communities functioned imo.

that's all that is being said by me on this topic...to deny this is just plain silly...again, imo.

Care

I disagree. We are NOT a Christian nation. Not then, not now. The founding fathers were deists.


Deism has no church and no official organization, hence, it is not considered a religion. It is more a reason-based view of religion in general. Deism is sometimes referred to as a religious philosophy or a religious outlook. In general, Deism did not see Christ as the Son of God, did not believe in the Trinity, had no strong belief in miracles, and had no belief in atonement or resurrection. The Bible was not considered “sacred text” among most Deists, although most Deists were (like Franklin) Christian-friendly.
Religion and the Founding Fathers

Yeah, all that talk of serving Christ was just stuff they said to say it. And they never meant any of those prayers.

 

[Sky Dancer]

We are NOT a Judeo Christian theocracy.

That would be because we are a Republic and not a Theocracy.

A first grader knows that.

Alibaba doesn't.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sky, I don't think anyone is saying the us is a theocracy, just because they say it was founded with Judeo/Christian VALUES.....not to say that some fundamentalists may wish it were a theocracy at times.

what is being said and should be considered is that the founding Fathers were not in a vacuum....

MOST were Christians with a few Deists in there that were signers of the constitution/declaration and in addition to this, one living in this era were the citizens the founders were giving these rights to, they WERE CHRISTIANS with Christian values the elite and the poor....the baker, the launderer, the grocer, the farmer the doctor, the mayors and governors, the Intelect throughout the country being formed were mostly Christians....even if one were an athiest or deist in religious beliefs they could not help but being influenced by their environment, by their surroundings and in the ways their communities functioned imo.

that's all that is being said by me on this topic...to deny this is just plain silly...again, imo.

Care

I disagree. We are NOT a Christian nation. Not then, not now. The founding fathers were deists.


Deism has no church and no official organization, hence, it is not considered a religion. It is more a reason-based view of religion in general. Deism is sometimes referred to as a religious philosophy or a religious outlook. In general, Deism did not see Christ as the Son of God, did not believe in the Trinity, had no strong belief in miracles, and had no belief in atonement or resurrection. The Bible was not considered “sacred text” among most Deists, although most Deists were (like Franklin) Christian-friendly.
Religion and the Founding Fathers

Yeah, all that talk of serving Christ was just stuff they said to say it. And they never meant any of those prayers.

There are no Christian prayers in the Constitution. God isn't even mentioned.

 

[Avatar4321]

There are no Christian prayers in the Constitution. God isn't even mentioned.

The Founding is much more than simply the Constitution. You can't just ignore everything and pretend as though Judeo-Christian values had absolutely nothing to do with our Founding, to the Declaration, the Constitution, and the Republic created because of them.

Go to the actual sources. But I doubt you will.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Deism was the prevailing philosophy of our founding fathers. It is well documented. Deism is a belief in God based on reason and nature.


Jefferson, Franklin, and the men who framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were anticlerical Deists.... They created America as an experiment in democracy, freedom and humanism.

 

[txlonghorn]

Sorry, but you are WRONG. Our Founders went out of their way to insure we had a secular government not tied to any religion including and especially Christianity in all its forms.

No, actually they did not. They went out of their way to insure that

A) There was no "state religion"
B) Everyone had a right to their own religion, or lack thereof - that simply isn't the same thing as saying they went out of their way to make sure we were a secular government.

I won't bore you with posting the millions of Biblical quotes from the founding fathers or multitude of Biblical pieces found in various government facilities, well unless you press it, then I will, but you are wrong.

We ABSOLUTELY were founded as a Christian nation, the founding fathers simply gave you the right to ignore the religion if you choose.

Name an American politician living or dead that has NEVER quoted the Bible.
That is what politicians do. The Founders were predominantly LAWYERS and politicians.
No where in any legal document anywhere is there any reference to us being founded as a Christian nation. Get over it. I am a Christian, the Founders were 98% Christian.
However, this nation was NOT founded on RELIGION.
Undisputed fact is that the Anglican church, the predominant church in America at that time as most of the Founders and colonists were Anglican, Episcopalian at the time. The Founders ran from that as the Colonial Episcopal church sided with the dam English.
The Founders wanted no part of that. The religous folks of that time sided with the Torries.
They wore a different jersey than the Founders.

Name an American politician living or dead that has NEVER quoted the Bible.

Doesn't that make you even a little curious? Especially since the Bible seems to upset so many that insist we are NOT a nation derived by Christians.

That is what politicians do. The Founders were predominantly LAWYERS and politicians.

And believers in the Creator of Heaven and Earth...God...some call them Christians.

No where in any legal document anywhere is there any reference to us being founded as a Christian nation. Get over it. I am a Christian, the Founders were 98% Christian.
However, this nation was NOT founded on RELIGION.

Well, there are references to Christianity all through the historical base of the founding of this nation. Legal docs, I couldn't be certain. But here are a couple of documents...charters and what not...that could suffice, for some anyway...

The First Charter of Virginia (granted by King James I, on April 10, 1606)
• We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God…
Instructions for the Virginia Colony (1606)
Lastly and chiefly the way to prosper and achieve good success is to make yourselves all of one mind for the good of your country and your own, and to serve and fear God the Giver of all Goodness, for every plantation which our Heavenly Father hath not planted shall be rooted out.

William Bradford
• wrote that they [the Pilgrims] were seeking:
• 1) "a better, and easier place of living”; and that “the children of the group were being drawn away by evil examples into extravagance and dangerous courses [in Holland]“
• 2) “The great hope, and for the propagating and advancing the gospel of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"
The Mayflower Compact (authored by William Bradford) 1620 | Signing of the Mayflower painting | Picture of Compact
“Having undertaken, for the glory of God, and advancement of the Christian faith, and honor of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presents solemnly and mutually, in the presence of God, and one of another, covenant and combine our selves together…”
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

 

[txlonghorn]

Deism was the prevailing philosophy of our founding fathers. It is well documented. Deism is a belief in God based on reason and nature.


Jefferson, Franklin, and the men who framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were anticlerical Deists.... They created America as an experiment in democracy, freedom and humanism.

By dictionary definition, deists, atheists, and agnostics are synonymous and include those who believe there is no God at all; those who believe there is no way to know if God exists; and those who believe in a distant, impersonal creator of the universe.

Dr. Franklin's Plea for Prayer to a Non-Deistic God

This is very interesting stuff if you can stick with it long enough.

 

[txlonghorn]

I disagree. We are NOT a Christian nation. Not then, not now. The founding fathers were deists.


Deism has no church and no official organization, hence, it is not considered a religion. It is more a reason-based view of religion in general. Deism is sometimes referred to as a religious philosophy or a religious outlook. In general, Deism did not see Christ as the Son of God, did not believe in the Trinity, had no strong belief in miracles, and had no belief in atonement or resurrection. The Bible was not considered “sacred text” among most Deists, although most Deists were (like Franklin) Christian-friendly.
Religion and the Founding Fathers

Yeah, all that talk of serving Christ was just stuff they said to say it. And they never meant any of those prayers.

There are no Christian prayers in the Constitution. God isn't even mentioned.

But the Constitutional Convention was covered in prayer and the mention of God....

 

[Care4all]

Deism was the prevailing philosophy of our founding fathers. It is well documented. Deism is a belief in God based on reason and nature.


Jefferson, Franklin, and the men who framed the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were anticlerical Deists.... They created America as an experiment in democracy, freedom and humanism.

do you believe our Nation of Christians who ratified the Constitution were well aware that our founding fathers were Deists?

 

[Gadawg73]

We do NOT have a secular government.

Another incorrect premise propagated by the progressives.

We have NEVER had a secular government. That's why we use THE BIBLE when judges, congressmen, police, the PRESIDENT are sworn in.

None of the rest of your rambling diatribe matters, because it comes down to that.

Where in the law is there any mention of religion?
We are a nation of LAWS.
How hard is that for you to understand? Religion is not an accepted form of government in any form. A secular government is what the Founders set up with the seperation of powers.
What role does religion play in our government? Tell us where that power is defined someplace, anyplace, somewhere, ANYWHERE in the law or the Constitution.
You have no evidence as usual. Give it up. There is no evidence that religion plays any role and has any authority in our government.
There is a reason for that. Thank God for it. God and religion ARE NOT a part of this government. They do it that way in Iran. We don't.

Exactly...we have secular (small s) govt.....we are a nation of laws....our Christian Founders protected the individual right to practice religion (or not) as we see fit through Constitutional law....and the law also says we cannot establish a government religion....you don't have that in Iran...where they have theocracy...muslims don't "render unto Caesar" if they don't have to...

....which is why Islam is a threat to our country if they start to establish sharia law....

....i also consider Secularism (capital S...which i consider a form of "religion") to also be a threat to this country's religious freedoms...religion does play an indirect role in government...

Well, you are getting there Eagle.
The part that gets under my skin is this Christian victim mentality. The false claim by the fundementalist that I am attemtping to ban Christianity because I want no part of it in government.
Islam is not a threat to our government unless we continue to fight ALL religous influence in government, no matter how good we view some such as the good things in Christianity. Radical Islam is NOW a real threat to our country.
Kill all the radical Muslims and let Allah sort them out.

 

[Care4all]

also, why did the founding Fathers that were Deists continue to attend Christian Churches?

and how Many of the original signers of the constitution and declaration were Deists and how many were Christians?

It was the Christians that did not want an Established religion and Christians that did not want in any manner a theocracy at the time.

 

[Gadawg73]

Yeah, all that talk of serving Christ was just stuff they said to say it. And they never meant any of those prayers.

There are no Christian prayers in the Constitution. God isn't even mentioned.

But the Constitutional Convention was covered in prayer and the mention of God....

The best and most powerful argument that we are not founded on religion.
They did exactly that and then INTENTIONALLY left out God, prayers, religion and any mention of anything religous in ALL of our laws.
There was a reason for that. Guess what it was?