The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[AllieBaba]

You won't get a yes or no from Sky. That would require some sort of committment on her part.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You have stated these points several times and I have not seen many disagree with you. At the same time you are not addressing the fact you were wrong about which founders were Christians and which were Deists. Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not you that asserted that most of those who signed the Constitution were not Christian?

What is wrong is to say that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America.

What is wrong is to state that the US was founded on Christian principles when it clearly was not.

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence but not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Jesus mentioned.

I'm taking care about this because there are dominionists who seek to make America a Christian theocracy by rewriting American history.

First and foremost they took care because of King George. They did not want leaders who assumed the divine right of kings. (One could argue we almost had King George W Bush). Some of the domionists saw Bush as the first of their leaders.

The founders were a mixed bag. Some were Unitarian, some were deists and some were Christians. That doesn't mean that America was founded on Christian principles.

You have to rewrite history to go there. Actually, they are busy in Texas doing that very thing.

Our laws of laws of men, and reason. They are a result of the Enlightenment. The founders took great care to not have religion overrun the country.

I think we honor them when we take care to guard our liberties carefully from those who seek to make the US a Christian theocracy.

I agree on most of what you are saying here, you seem to be repeating again. Do you always have difficulty answering a simple yes or no question? That was rhetorical by the way, no need to answer.

Here is another try at two yes or no questions. I am asking these honestly, because I think they get at the root of our disagreement:

Are you saying that the most of the founders were not Christian?
Are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation. Dominionist Christian are not happy with the truth and they want to re-write history and remake America into a Christian nation. I oppose that.

One of the American values I hold most dear is religious freedom.

 

[Christopher]

What is wrong is to state that the US was founded on Christian principles when it clearly was not.

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence but not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Jesus mentioned.

I'm taking care about this because there are dominionists who seek to make America a Christian theocracy by rewriting American history.

First and foremost they took care because of King George. They did not want leaders who assumed the divine right of kings. (One could argue we almost had King George W Bush). Some of the domionists saw Bush as the first of their leaders.

The founders were a mixed bag. Some were Unitarian, some were deists and some were Christians. That doesn't mean that America was founded on Christian principles.

You have to rewrite history to go there. Actually, they are busy in Texas doing that very thing.

Our laws of laws of men, and reason. They are a result of the Enlightenment. The founders took great care to not have religion overrun the country.

I think we honor them when we take care to guard our liberties carefully from those who seek to make the US a Christian theocracy.

I agree on most of what you are saying here, you seem to be repeating again. Do you always have difficulty answering a simple yes or no question? That was rhetorical by the way, no need to answer.

Here is another try at two yes or no questions. I am asking these honestly, because I think they get at the root of our disagreement:

Are you saying that the most of the founders were not Christian?
Are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation.

Well, we agree that not all the founders were Christian. I submit, based upon all the writings and statements we have from the founders, that MOST of them were Christian. You have yet to provide anything that would dispute that.

Again, are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

 

[AllieBaba]

What is wrong is to state that the US was founded on Christian principles when it clearly was not.

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence but not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Jesus mentioned.

I'm taking care about this because there are dominionists who seek to make America a Christian theocracy by rewriting American history.

First and foremost they took care because of King George. They did not want leaders who assumed the divine right of kings. (One could argue we almost had King George W Bush). Some of the domionists saw Bush as the first of their leaders.

The founders were a mixed bag. Some were Unitarian, some were deists and some were Christians. That doesn't mean that America was founded on Christian principles.

You have to rewrite history to go there. Actually, they are busy in Texas doing that very thing.

Our laws of laws of men, and reason. They are a result of the Enlightenment. The founders took great care to not have religion overrun the country.

I think we honor them when we take care to guard our liberties carefully from those who seek to make the US a Christian theocracy.

I agree on most of what you are saying here, you seem to be repeating again. Do you always have difficulty answering a simple yes or no question? That was rhetorical by the way, no need to answer.

Here is another try at two yes or no questions. I am asking these honestly, because I think they get at the root of our disagreement:

Are you saying that the most of the founders were not Christian?
Are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation. Dominionist Christian are not happy with the truth and they want to re-write history and remake America into a Christian nation. I oppose that.

One of the American values I hold most dear is religious freedom.

Good. It's also a Christian value.

And nobody wants to turn America into a Christian nation. It's always been a Christian nation. What we want to do is prevent jackasses from stifling religious freedom by egregiously claiming that we aren't allowed to refer to God or to follow our religious principles if we happen to be involved in politics. That is by definition OPPRESSIVE and violates the principle of religious freedom.

 

[Gadawg73]

I agree on most of what you are saying here, you seem to be repeating again. Do you always have difficulty answering a simple yes or no question? That was rhetorical by the way, no need to answer.

Here is another try at two yes or no questions. I am asking these honestly, because I think they get at the root of our disagreement:

Are you saying that the most of the founders were not Christian?
Are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation.

Well, we agree that not all the founders were Christian. I submit, based upon all the writings and statements we have from the founders, that MOST of them were Christian. You have yet to provide anything that would dispute that.

Again, are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

If they worshipped the Spaghetti Monster how would that have changed or made a difference in anything?
We are a nation of laws, not men and their religions. The Constitution is concrete evidence of that.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

we should seek the opinions of ALL people
without knowing their religion or lack thereof

a good start....
but that's kind of short-sighted isn't it? a man's religion informs you alot about the man...

then
regardless of their religion
if they have a good opinion or a good idea we shouldn't JUST ignore it because they happen to be atheist (or christian)

that is a very subjective statement...who decides if it a "good" opinion or not?
who is the "we" you are referring to? you are just one man/one vote in this country

however
since you asked this question a certain way I will add the following;

here it comes...

though I would NOT just disqualify a persons opinion because he was a christian
I would MOST LIKELY disqualify a persons opinion if his opinions were extremely evangelical

you were doing pretty good til now but this is just the kind of answer i expected from you....what makes you think you can "DISQUALIFY" a person's opinion...? even if they are the scary evagelicals that you hate so much.....? they have the right to free speech and free expression of their religion just as much as anybody else has....and they can influence the laws of this country just as much as anybody else if they can get the votes.....we are a country based on laws that are made by people who VOTE.....one man one vote.....and each is entitled to his OWN opinion no matter how much you dislike it....now i know you are going to backpeddle and get mushy about the word "disqualify" like a typical librul but there are lefties in this Administration that libruls like you have put in office who are of the same kind of mindset and they are actually seeking to "disqualify" (in roundabout ways) things like talk radio in order to shut them up...because they do not like what they say.....libruls even consider cons on the radio to be spewing "hate speech".....another librul euphenism that means you are "disqualified" to speak because we don't like what you say...

lastly;
there are MILLIONS of christians who, after years of BAD PRESS about atheists (thanks to people like glenn beck and bill oreilly and pat robertson) would NEVER VOTE for an atheist REGARDLESS of how good a choice he was

would NEVER seek the opinion of an atheist regardless of how smart and wise he was

SIMPLY because they have been brainwashed into fearing atheists

and that is their constitutional right...

 

[Christopher]

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation.

Well, we agree that not all the founders were Christian. I submit, based upon all the writings and statements we have from the founders, that MOST of them were Christian. You have yet to provide anything that would dispute that.

Again, are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

If they worshipped the Spaghetti Monster how would that have changed or made a difference in anything?
We are a nation of laws, not men and their religions. The Constitution is concrete evidence of that.

Maybe we would eat more pasta?
Seriously, I think our country would be much different today; that is if it would have even been formed in the first place. Here are some good books which provide plenty of food for thought about how Christianity influenced our founding:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Origins-American-Constitutionalism-Donald-Lutz/dp/0807115061/ref=pd_sim_b_1]Amazon.com: The Origins of American Constitutionalism (9780807115060): Donald S. Lutz: Books[/ame]

In The Origins of American Constitutionalism, Donald S. Lutz challenges the prevailing notion that the United States Constitution was either essentially inherited from the British or simply invented by the Federalists in the summer of 1787. His political theory of constitutionalism acknowledges the contributions of the British and the Federalists. Lutz also asserts, however, that the U.S. Constitution derives in form and content from a tradition of American colonial charters and documents of political foundation that began a century and a half prior to 1787. Lutz builds his argument around a close textual analysis of such documents as the Mayflower Compact, the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, the Rhode Island Charter of 1663, the first state constitutions, the Declaration of Independence, and the Articles of Confederation. He shows that American constitutionalism developed to a considerable degree from radical Protestant interpretations of the Judeo-Christian tradition that were first secularized into political compacts and then incorporated into constitutions and bills of rights. Over time, appropriations that enriched this tradition included aspects of English common law and English Whig theory. Lutz also looks at the influence of Montesquieu, Locke, Blackstone, and Hume. In addition, he details the importance of Americans' experiences and history to the political theory that produced the Constitution. By placing the Constitution within this broader constitutional system, Lutz demonstrates that the document is the culmination of a long process and must be understood within this context. His argument also offers a fresh view of current controversies over the Framers' intentions, the place of religion in American politics, and citizens' continuing role in the development of the constitutional tradition.

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Constitution-Faith-Founding-Fathers/dp/0801052319]Amazon.com: Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers (9780801052316): John Eidsmoe: Books[/ame]

John Eidsmoe rights the faulty historical record and correctly brings us back to the roots that made America great . . . clearly demonstrates that our constitutional liberties are a direct result of our founders' moral and religious convictions which were based on a belief in a God who created heaven and earth as well as on the fixed and unchanging absolutes of God's Word. Robert Skolrood, National Legal Foundation Legally accurate yet easy to understand . . . presents the truth about our founding fathers and their strong Christian roots that is missing from most textbooks and reference books written during the last fifty years. Every student of American history, ministers, and public speakers should read this book. . . . Tim LaHaye, Family Life Seminars Combines an interesting presentation with fine scholarship and a critical m message . . . should be read by anyone interested in the Constitution or Christianity. Wendell Bird, constitutional attorney Knowledge of our Christian heritage is an important weapon in the current fight for religious freedom in America. Eidsmoe has given us an entire arsenal of new and important evidence substantiating the Christian roots of our government. Mike Farris, Home School Legal Defense Association Balanced and lucid . . . clearly documents the pervasive Christian influence on the lives and thought of those who wrote our Constitution. I recommend it highly as a corrective to the almost totally secular portrayal of the Constitution found in so many textbooks today. Paul Vitz, author John Eidsmoe holds five degrees in law, theology, and political science. He currently serves as professor of constitutional law and related subjects at the Thomas Goode Jones School of Law, Faulkner University, Montgomery, Alabama, where he received the Outstanding Professor Award in 1993. A constitutional attorney and lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, he has also taught church history and other subjects in various seminaries and has produced a twelve-part video series titled The Institute on the Constitution. His other books include The Christian Legal Advisor, God and Caesar, and Columbus and Cortez.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation. Dominionist Christian are not happy with the truth and they want to re-write history and remake America into a Christian nation. I oppose that.

One of the American values I hold most dear is religious freedom.

The VAST (i'd venture 99%) majority of founders were Chrisitan....mainly Protestants....
A very few were Deists...
Even those who drew from the Age of Reason believed in God...(listen up Secularists)

One can rightly say we are a Christian nation...because most of us are Christians and we make up this nation...
One CANNOT rightly say we have a Christian government...it's a secular government...influenced by Christianity...and other beliefs...

Religious freedom means we must tolerate those Dominionists and those Evangelicals and those Islamists....
They have the religious freedom to practice their religions just as much as everybody else as long as they do not usurp the law...

 

[Care4all]

Well, if the posters here would stop misrepresenting and twisting the facts about our founding fathers and what the first amendment stands for we probably would not have an argument here....

Jefferson liked this proposal for our Nation's Seal so much that he took it for his own, when it was not used for our Nation.

In the story of America's Great Seal, a particularly relevant chapter is the imagery suggested by Benjamin Franklin in August 1776. He chose the dramatic scene described in Exodus, where people confronted a tyrant in order to gain their freedom.

"Pharaoh sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his head and a Sword in his hand, passing through the divided Waters of the Red Sea in Pursuit of the Israelites: Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Cloud, expressive of the divine Presence and Command, beaming on Moses who stands on the shore and extending his hand over the Sea causes it to overwhelm Pharaoh."

"Motto: Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

Quotation on the Jefferson Memorial Franklin's design was recommended by the first committee for the reverse side of the Great Seal. The above realization was made by Benson J. Lossing for Harper's New Monthly Magazine in July 1856. The first committee made no sketch (that survives) of their design – one that is more historical than religious

Thomas Jefferson liked the motto "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" so much, he used it on his personal seal. Also, it seems to have inspired the upper motto on the final reverse side of the Great Seal: Annuit Coeptis (God has favored our undertakings).

"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God - Ben Franklin's Motto for America

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

Was Deist even termed a word back then Sky? they were part of a movement called the enlightenment, they were Free Masons.

Did they tell the public that they were something called Deists? NO, they DID NOT. they called themselves Christians, and the Unitarian Church(who considered themselves followers of Christ even though they did not believe in the Triune God only the one God) was what followed from what I have read?

Our constitution has parts that are modeled after free masonry's constitution....free Masons were made up of Christians, the first Unitarians/ (what you call Deists) at the time.....One had to believe in God to be a Free Mason.

Our founding Fathers believed that GOVERNMENT should not interfere with ones own personal choices in Religion....and that ones personal choice of Religions should be allowed in the PUBLIC SQUARE, and that GVT should have absolutely NO POWER to stop this from happening or legislating to control this in any manner.

The above, IS WHAT the First Amendment is ALL about....it was NOT about RIDDING ones personal choice in religious worship or lack thereof, FROM the Public Square, but to put it IN THE public square with no interference from the Government for ones personal choice of religion or worship or their free speech of such.

It is an absolute fabrication to state otherwise imo.

care

 

[Sky Dancer]

I agree on most of what you are saying here, you seem to be repeating again. Do you always have difficulty answering a simple yes or no question? That was rhetorical by the way, no need to answer.

Here is another try at two yes or no questions. I am asking these honestly, because I think they get at the root of our disagreement:

Are you saying that the most of the founders were not Christian?
Are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation.

Well, we agree that not all the founders were Christian. I submit, based upon all the writings and statements we have from the founders, that MOST of them were Christian. You have yet to provide anything that would dispute that.

Again, are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

Yes. That is exactly what I'm saying. The Constitution and Declaration of Independence are not Christian documents. We, the People rule, not God.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well, if the posters here would stop misrepresenting and twisting the facts about our founding fathers and what the first amendment stands for we probably would not have an argument here....

Jefferson liked this proposal for our Nation's Seal so much that he took it for his own, when it was not used for our Nation.

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God - Ben Franklin's Motto for America

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

Was Deist even termed a word back then Sky? they were part of a movement called the enlightenment, they were Free Masons.

Did they tell the public that they were something called Deists? NO, they DID NOT. they called themselves Christians, and the Unitarian Church(who considered themselves followers of Christ even though they did not believe in the Triune God only the one God) was what followed from what I have read?

Our constitution has parts that are modeled after free masonry's constitution....free Masons were made up of Christians, the first Unitarians/ (what you call Deists) at the time.....One had to believe in God to be a Free Mason.

Our founding Fathers believed that GOVERNMENT should not interfere with ones own personal choices in Religion....and that ones personal choice of Religions should be allowed in the PUBLIC SQUARE, and that GVT should have absolutely NO POWER to stop this from happening or legislating to control this in any manner.

The above, IS WHAT the First Amendment is ALL about....it was NOT about RIDDING ones personal choice in religious worship or lack thereof, FROM the Public Square, but to put it IN THE public square with no interference from the Government for ones personal choice of religion or worship or their free speech of such.

It is an absolute fabrication to state otherwise imo.

care

Deist was a term used back then. Benjamin Franklin used it. God is not in the Constitution. Christ is mentioned nowhere.

I agree with you about religious freedom being a principle in the first amendment. That is NOT a Christian concept. Here is a source about Deism; Deism is a belief in God through reason and nature. The Founding Fathers convictions to draft the Consitution spring from deism, not the Bible.
The reliance on reason that Deism demands enabled those who used it at the time of the American Revolution to overcome the Biblical prohibition against rebellion in political and governmental matters. This prohibition is found in Romans 13:1-2 which reads, "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

One of those who employed Deistic principles was Benjamin Franklin. As a young man in Philadelphia he read some Christian books that were written in opposition to Deism. Franklin wrote in his autobiography: "Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's Lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."
http://www.deism.com/deistamerica.htm

BTW I'm taking real care here because there is a threat to liberty from the Dominionists. They are a dangerous movement toward a Christian theocracy, they rewrite history and they are the farthest thing from what the Founders intended.

If Dominionists succeed my religious freedom goes out the window. Perhaps that doesn't concern you because you're a Christian too. I thought Christ said to render to Caesar the things that are Caesars. The American government does not owe its existence to Christianity.

 

[bruzz]

One can rightly say we are a Christian nation...because most of us are Christians and we make up this nation...

How many of these christians would you say attend church and if they do, do you feel they are just going through the motions? How about christians who are living according the teaching of Jesus?

There are very few real christians in the world.

 

[Care4all]

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

Was Deist even termed a word back then Sky? they were part of a movement called the enlightenment, they were Free Masons.

Did they tell the public that they were something called Deists? NO, they DID NOT. they called themselves Christians, and the Unitarian Church(who considered themselves followers of Christ even though they did not believe in the Triune God only the one God) was what followed from what I have read?

Our constitution has parts that are modeled after free masonry's constitution....free Masons were made up of Christians, the first Unitarians/ (what you call Deists) at the time.....One had to believe in God to be a Free Mason.

Our founding Fathers believed that GOVERNMENT should not interfere with ones own personal choices in Religion....and that ones personal choice of Religions should be allowed in the PUBLIC SQUARE, and that GVT should have absolutely NO POWER to stop this from happening or legislating to control this in any manner.

The above, IS WHAT the First Amendment is ALL about....it was NOT about RIDDING ones personal choice in religious worship or lack thereof, FROM the Public Square, but to put it IN THE public square with no interference from the Government for ones personal choice of religion or worship or their free speech of such.

It is an absolute fabrication to state otherwise imo.

care

Deist was a term used back then. Benjamin Franklin used it. God is not in the Constitution. Christ is mentioned nowhere.

I agree with you about religious freedom being a principle in the first amendment. That is NOT a Christian concept. Here is a source about Deism;
Deist Roots of America

Educate yourself about the Dominion movement and you'll see my concerns a bit clearer. They are a dangerous movement toward a Christian theocracy.

Why did they go to Church?

Sky, the fear of us becoming a theocracy is lunacy imho....you are NO CLOSER to this happening at any time in History of our country....we have a constitution that will ALWAYS keep this from happening, and in addition to this, you have fewer Christians than in any time of our History....we have millions of Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, Hebrew, Wicca, and Atheists. We are a Secular Nation, where one can choose your religion or lack thereof and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE....

so, stop this theocracy PHOBIA Madness....it is just your group of religious thinkers that is trying to unite you in "an enemy", so to give them more power....they get power from your fear....is what I think is going on with you...???

to go through your life in FEAR of such, makes you weak in mind and in body. You should release yourself of such fear, you will be more spiritually whole, without it....from one friend to another.

Care

 

[bruzz]

I agree on most of what you are saying here, you seem to be repeating again. Do you always have difficulty answering a simple yes or no question? That was rhetorical by the way, no need to answer.

Here is another try at two yes or no questions. I am asking these honestly, because I think they get at the root of our disagreement:

Are you saying that the most of the founders were not Christian?
Are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?

No. I''m saying that not all the founders were Christian, some were Deists, some were Unitarian and that American governement is not founded on Christian principles but on the will of the people and reason.

Christ and God are not mentioned in the Constitution. The founders took great care that we not have divine right of kings--we rebelled against King George. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that we are NOT a Christian nation. Dominionist Christian are not happy with the truth and they want to re-write history and remake America into a Christian nation. I oppose that.

One of the American values I hold most dear is religious freedom.

Good. It's also a Christian value.

And nobody wants to turn America into a Christian nation. It's always been a Christian nation. What we want to do is prevent jackasses from stifling religious freedom by egregiously claiming that we aren't allowed to refer to God or to follow our religious principles if we happen to be involved in politics. That is by definition OPPRESSIVE and violates the principle of religious freedom.

Wrong. Are you aware of The Family? The Dominion movement? These groups have installed "in god we trust" on our money and "one nation under god" in our Pledge of a Allegience, yet i can assure you they have little in common with the Founding Fathers version of God. Their version of god is power, which is quite similar to the early christian church, and we all know how many wars were started in the name of religion and how tolerant they were of other religions in their 'our religion is the correct religion' mentality.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Was Deist even termed a word back then Sky? they were part of a movement called the enlightenment, they were Free Masons.

Did they tell the public that they were something called Deists? NO, they DID NOT. they called themselves Christians, and the Unitarian Church(who considered themselves followers of Christ even though they did not believe in the Triune God only the one God) was what followed from what I have read?

Our constitution has parts that are modeled after free masonry's constitution....free Masons were made up of Christians, the first Unitarians/ (what you call Deists) at the time.....One had to believe in God to be a Free Mason.

Our founding Fathers believed that GOVERNMENT should not interfere with ones own personal choices in Religion....and that ones personal choice of Religions should be allowed in the PUBLIC SQUARE, and that GVT should have absolutely NO POWER to stop this from happening or legislating to control this in any manner.

The above, IS WHAT the First Amendment is ALL about....it was NOT about RIDDING ones personal choice in religious worship or lack thereof, FROM the Public Square, but to put it IN THE public square with no interference from the Government for ones personal choice of religion or worship or their free speech of such.

It is an absolute fabrication to state otherwise imo.

care

Deist was a term used back then. Benjamin Franklin used it. God is not in the Constitution. Christ is mentioned nowhere.

I agree with you about religious freedom being a principle in the first amendment. That is NOT a Christian concept. Here is a source about Deism;
Deist Roots of America

Educate yourself about the Dominion movement and you'll see my concerns a bit clearer. They are a dangerous movement toward a Christian theocracy.

Why did they go to Church?

Sky, the fear of us becoming a theocracy is lunacy imho....you are NO CLOSER to this happening at any time in History of our country....we have a constitution that will ALWAYS keep this from happening, and in addition to this, you have fewer Christians than in any time of our History....we have millions of Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, Hebrew, Wicca, and Atheists. We are a Secular Nation, where one can choose your religion or lack thereof and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE....

so, stop this theocracy PHOBIA Madness....it is just your group of religious thinkers that is trying to unite you in "an enemy", so to give them more power....they get power from your fear....is what I think is going on with you...???

to go through your life in FEAR of such, makes you weak in mind and in body. You should release yourself of such fear, you will be more spiritually whole, without it....from one friend to another.

Care

At least read about dominionism, Care before calling me a lunatic. I'm not pioaranoid. Dominionism starts by claiming the Founders were all Christians and the country was founded on the Bible. It wasn't.

We are a secular nation. God is not mentioned in the Constitution for a good reason. Let's keep it that way.

Yes, I grant you that some of the Founders went to Church. They favored favored a belief in God measured by nature and reason. Not a biblical concept of God.

As to my concerns with the Christian right and dominionist in particular. Pay attention. They own the GOP.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

One can rightly say we are a Christian nation...because most of us are Christians and we make up this nation...

How many of these christians would you say attend church and if they do, do you feel they are just going through the motions? How about christians who are living according the teaching of Jesus?

There are very few real christians in the world.

Not sure how you define "real" christian...but i'd say our founding fathers were "real" chrisitans...

Not so many going to church these days....one of the reasons our country is having so many problems.....the lack of morality is fraying society...

However a bright spot....it does seem that there is a resurgence of religion as this country is becoming more polarized between the Christians and the Secularists...

 

[bruzz]

At this point we need to define god, as god can have many definitions. I will throw my definitions out there, but do not claim them to be correct.

Definitions of god:
Founding fathers: God= reason.
Christians/religion: God = a higher power, something unexplainable, the head of their church.
Modern fundamentalist groups: God = power.

Please feel free to change or critique this list.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Dominionism is a tendency among Protestant Christian evangelicals and fundamentalists that encourages them to not only be active political participants in civic society, but also seek to dominate the political process as part of a mandate from God.

This highly politicized concept of dominionism is based on the Bible's text in Genesis 1

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (King James Version).

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth and over all the creatures that move along the ground.'" (New International Version).


The vast majority of Christians read this text and conclude that God has appointed them stewards and caretakers of Earth. As Sara Diamond explains, however, some Christian read the text and believe, "that Christians alone are Biblically mandated to occupy all secular institutions until Christ returns." That, in a nutshell, is the idea of "dominionism."
Rise of the Religious Right in the Republican Party

Think Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council. Think Christian Coalition. Coral Ridge Ministeries.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Deist was a term used back then. Benjamin Franklin used it. God is not in the Constitution. Christ is mentioned nowhere.

I agree with you about religious freedom being a principle in the first amendment. That is NOT a Christian concept. Here is a source about Deism;
Deist Roots of America

Educate yourself about the Dominion movement and you'll see my concerns a bit clearer. They are a dangerous movement toward a Christian theocracy.

Why did they go to Church?

Sky, the fear of us becoming a theocracy is lunacy imho....you are NO CLOSER to this happening at any time in History of our country....we have a constitution that will ALWAYS keep this from happening, and in addition to this, you have fewer Christians than in any time of our History....we have millions of Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, Hebrew, Wicca, and Atheists. We are a Secular Nation, where one can choose your religion or lack thereof and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE....

so, stop this theocracy PHOBIA Madness....it is just your group of religious thinkers that is trying to unite you in "an enemy", so to give them more power....they get power from your fear....is what I think is going on with you...???

to go through your life in FEAR of such, makes you weak in mind and in body. You should release yourself of such fear, you will be more spiritually whole, without it....from one friend to another.

Care

At least read about dominionism, Care before calling me a lunatic. I'm not pioaranoid. Dominionism starts by claiming the Founders were all Christians and the country was founded on the Bible. It wasn't.

We are a secular nation. God is not mentioned in the Constitution for a good reason. Let's keep it that way.

Yes, I grant you that some of the Founders went to Church. They favored favored a belief in God measured by nature and reason. Not a biblical concept of God.

As to my concerns with the Christian right and dominionist in particular. Pay attention. They own the GOP.

So....the christian dominionists own the GOP....much like the secular commies own the Dems...?

 

[bruzz]

Was Deist even termed a word back then Sky? they were part of a movement called the enlightenment, they were Free Masons.

Did they tell the public that they were something called Deists? NO, they DID NOT. they called themselves Christians, and the Unitarian Church(who considered themselves followers of Christ even though they did not believe in the Triune God only the one God) was what followed from what I have read?

Our constitution has parts that are modeled after free masonry's constitution....free Masons were made up of Christians, the first Unitarians/ (what you call Deists) at the time.....One had to believe in God to be a Free Mason.

Our founding Fathers believed that GOVERNMENT should not interfere with ones own personal choices in Religion....and that ones personal choice of Religions should be allowed in the PUBLIC SQUARE, and that GVT should have absolutely NO POWER to stop this from happening or legislating to control this in any manner.

The above, IS WHAT the First Amendment is ALL about....it was NOT about RIDDING ones personal choice in religious worship or lack thereof, FROM the Public Square, but to put it IN THE public square with no interference from the Government for ones personal choice of religion or worship or their free speech of such.

It is an absolute fabrication to state otherwise imo.

care

Deist was a term used back then. Benjamin Franklin used it. God is not in the Constitution. Christ is mentioned nowhere.

I agree with you about religious freedom being a principle in the first amendment. That is NOT a Christian concept. Here is a source about Deism;
Deist Roots of America

Educate yourself about the Dominion movement and you'll see my concerns a bit clearer. They are a dangerous movement toward a Christian theocracy.

Why did they go to Church?

Sky, the fear of us becoming a theocracy is lunacy imho....you are NO CLOSER to this happening at any time in History of our country....we have a constitution that will ALWAYS keep this from happening, and in addition to this, you have fewer Christians than in any time of our History....we have millions of Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim, Hebrew, Wicca, and Atheists. We are a Secular Nation, where one can choose your religion or lack thereof and THIS WILL NOT CHANGE....

so, stop this theocracy PHOBIA Madness....it is just your group of religious thinkers that is trying to unite you in "an enemy", so to give them more power....they get power from your fear....is what I think is going on with you...???

to go through your life in FEAR of such, makes you weak in mind and in body. You should release yourself of such fear, you will be more spiritually whole, without it....from one friend to another.

Care

What you fail to recognize is how much more fundamental and politically powerful christianity is today. 100 years ago, churches were small and rural. Churches nowadays are closer to corporations. Look at new life "church". Churches and their members have become much more radical in their beliefs. This isn't your grandfathers church.