The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[rikules]

No they have not...in fact many of our laws, our bill of rights, our other amendments fly in the face of Judeo-Christian beliefs.

much of what the christians woud enact as laws are
a. unconstitutional and
b. BAD, EVIL!

the 10 commandments, for example, are mostly unconstitutional

and christian laws like anti-homosexual or anti-wiccan are both unconstitutional AND bad.

I know that many of our deviously deceptive conservative friends on this board INSIST that
a. evangelical christians don't exist and
b. they would NEVER EVER criminalize wiccans or homosexuals or atheists..

but
they either lie to themselves
or just lie to us
or both

I have no doubt that should people like GLENN BECK and BILL OREILLY ever achieve enough influence to help get evangelical christians elected to enough political and judicial
positions the round-up of homosexuals, wiccans, atheists, (liberals? feminists? democrats?)
woud be item number 2 on the agenda...

rounding up "the abortionists" and the women who have had abortions would be item number 1

and then
as hero-to-conservaytives newt gingrich said....
"we must change the laws of the land to reflect our christian religious beliefs and then see to it that they can NEVER be changed again"

talk about tyrannical theocracy

ok cons

time for you to tell us how we are paranoid and that right wing evangelicals don't actually exist....

cons......
so deranged....

right wing evangelical are EVERYWHERE (on tv, in the media, on the radio)
and cons INSIST they don't exist!

meanwhile

there is NO evidence of a god....
but god they believe in.....!

I thank the gods that I don't believe in that I am NOT a loony tune conservative

Answer this...

Whose opinion should we listen to in order to make the laws (within the Constitutional framework of course) in this country....?

An Atheist's opinion?
An Agnostic's opinion?
An Anglican's opinion?
A Baptist's opinion?
Catholic's opinion?
Confucian's opinion?
Deist's opinion?
Evangelical's opinion?
and so forth...you get the idea...

we should seek the opinions of ALL people
without knowing their religion or lack thereof

then
regardless of their religion
if they have a good opinion or a good idea we shouldn't JUST ignore it because they happen to be atheist (or christian)


however
since you asked this question a certain way I will add the following;

though I would NOT just disqualify a persons opinion because he was a christian
I would MOST LIKELY disqualify a persons opinion if his opinions were extremely evangelical

lastly;
there are MILLIONS of christians who, after years of BAD PRESS about atheists (thanks to people like glenn beck and bill oreilly and pat robertson) would NEVER VOTE for an atheist REGARDLESS of how good a choice he was

would NEVER seek the opinion of an atheist regardless of how smart and wise he was

SIMPLY because they have been brainwashed into fearing atheists

 

[rikules]

Truce? Dream on ...they'd rather die than agree to any part of Christianity in our nation's conception. What is so odd is that we all seem to agree that Christianity was intentionally left out of our government for reasons that we have extensively discussed...to death actually. And it seems like we all have the same idea that God, Jesus and the holy grail were purposefully left out of the constitution to protect religious freedom or the freedom to ignore religion altogether if that's your choosing. Where we seem to be locked up is on the fact that these men were indeed, by self proclamation, Christian in their faith. So while the grand ol' America may not have been born out of Christianity...there would appear, from all the links provided here that support the notion, that Christianity and the acknowledgment of Christ as the Son of God, did indeed guide these men in their endeavor to form a more perfect union as ONE NATION....UNDER GOD

i'm sure you kow that "one nation...under god" was inappropriately added to teh pledge of allegiance in the 1950s

the original pledge
written in the late 1800s
did not mention god at all

and, i'm sure you understand that a pledge of Americans (religious and non-religious) should be ALL inclusive...

I'm perfectly willing, as an atheist, to swear allegiance to America
I am NOT willing to swear allegiance to any god

a pledge of allegiance
to ANY nation
should be a pledge for ALL people in that nation to THAT nation, only.

and no ONE GROUP of people (in this case, christians) should be demanding that THEIR GOD be included in that pledge

i never recite "under god" when I say the pledge
and I PURPOSELY recite "INDIVISIBLE" as LOUDLY as I can.....

 

[Intense]

How about a truce? The United States was founded by people that were Christians. Good Christians.
They, as good Christians had a positive influence on all of American society.
However, they all agreed that their religion had no influence and place in government.
There, we have it. Every one knows that is fact.

Dogma has no place in Government. Principle does.

 

[Intense]

How about a truce? The United States was founded by people that were Christians. Good Christians.
They, as good Christians had a positive influence on all of American society.
However, they all agreed that their religion had no influence and place in government.
There, we have it. Every one knows that is fact.

Actually, not everyone does know that is fact because it's not. They wanted government to have no effect on religion, not vice versa.

They did have concern over the battle of the sects.

 

[Intense]

What a lovely thought....what does it have to do with the Price of Turnips?

Sort of like you firing a 12 gauge into a crowd because somebody said something you didn't like. Takes care of one problem, but creates more than it solves. You want to tackle injustice, be surgical, it beats being blind folded. Collateral damage creates more than it solves. Stick to the truth, limit to the truth. There were allot of things going on in the world during the times of which you speak.

Another interesting post...still not seeing your point here...obtuse on purpose?

Blame it on the heat wave.

 

[Intense]

here's a little known fact for ya

in the summer of 2001 (before 9/11)

I was watching pat robertson (tis well to know what tunes the devil is playing)
and he said;

"we (evangelical christians) have MORE in common with evangelical muslims than we do with liberal or moderate christians"

Pat Robertson has always been an idiot. He was trashed by Evangelical Christians when he said this, something you would point out if you were honest.

Really? Who trashed him? I was on another message board where many many people said he was spot on.

What matters is recognizing when anyone crosses the line. Welcome to the real world where people matter, flaws and all. It's either that or playing "Last Man Standing". Robertson is no more or less than anyone else in his witness. It is up to the individual to discern. His witness is his witness. The burden he creates, between him and God, just like you and I.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The new Government has my best Wishes and most fervent Prayers, for its Success and Prosperity: but whether I shall have any Thing more to do with it, besides praying for it, depends on the future suffrages of Freemen.
Letter to Thomas Jefferson (2 January 1789)

Thanks to God that he gave me stubbornness when I know I am right.
Letter to Edmund Jenings (1782),

I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution... It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

I have thought proper to recommend, and I do hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the 25th day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain as far as may be from their secular occupations, devote the time to the sacred duties of religion in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the Most High God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach' to any people;" that He would turn us from our transgressions and turn His displeasure from us; that He would withhold us from unreasonable discontent, from disunion, faction, sedition, and insurrection; that He would preserve our country from the desolating sword; that He would save our cities and towns from a repetition of those awful pestilential visitations under which they have lately suffered so severely, and that the health of our inhabitants generally may be precious in His sight; that He would favor us with fruitful seasons and so bless the labors of the husbandman as that there may be food in abundance for man and beast; that He would prosper our commerce, manufactures, and fisheries, and give success to the people in all their lawful industry and enterprise; that He would smile on our colleges, academies, schools, and seminaries of learning, and make them nurseries of sound science, morals, and religion; that He would bless all magistrates, from the highest to the lowest, give them the true spirit of their station, make them a terror to evil doers and a praise to them that do well; that He would preside over the councils of the nation at this critical period, enlighten them to a just discernment of the public interest, and save them from mistake, division, and discord; that He would make succeed our preparations for defense and bless our armaments by land and by sea; that He would put an end to the effusion of human blood and the accumulation of human misery among the contending nations of the earth by disposing them to justice, to equity, to benevolence, and to peace; and that he would extend the blessings of knowledge, of true liberty, and of pure and undefiled religion throughout the world.
John Adams Presidential proclamation of a national day of fasting and prayer (6 March 1789)

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

 

[Intense]

No they have not...in fact many of our laws, our bill of rights, our other amendments fly in the face of Judeo-Christian beliefs.

much of what the christians woud enact as laws are
a. unconstitutional and
b. BAD, EVIL!

the 10 commandments, for example, are mostly unconstitutional

and christian laws like anti-homosexual or anti-wiccan are both unconstitutional AND bad.

I know that many of our deviously deceptive conservative friends on this board INSIST that
a. evangelical christians don't exist and
b. they would NEVER EVER criminalize wiccans or homosexuals or atheists..

but
they either lie to themselves
or just lie to us
or both

I have no doubt that should people like GLENN BECK and BILL OREILLY ever achieve enough influence to help get evangelical christians elected to enough political and judicial
positions the round-up of homosexuals, wiccans, atheists, (liberals? feminists? democrats?)
woud be item number 2 on the agenda...

rounding up "the abortionists" and the women who have had abortions would be item number 1

and then
as hero-to-conservaytives newt gingrich said....
"we must change the laws of the land to reflect our christian religious beliefs and then see to it that they can NEVER be changed again"

talk about tyrannical theocracy

ok cons

time for you to tell us how we are paranoid and that right wing evangelicals don't actually exist....

cons......
so deranged....

right wing evangelical are EVERYWHERE (on tv, in the media, on the radio)
and cons INSIST they don't exist!

meanwhile

there is NO evidence of a god....
but god they believe in.....!

I thank the gods that I don't believe in that I am NOT a loony tune conservative

Answer this...

Whose opinion should we listen to in order to make the laws (within the Constitutional framework of course) in this country....?

An Atheist's opinion?
An Agnostic's opinion?
An Anglican's opinion?
A Baptist's opinion?
Catholic's opinion?
Confucian's opinion?
Deist's opinion?
Evangelical's opinion?
and so forth...you get the idea...

Yes to all of the above. Just limit the branding and rule out the dogma.

 

[Gadawg73]

How about a truce? The United States was founded by people that were Christians. Good Christians.
They, as good Christians had a positive influence on all of American society.
However, they all agreed that their religion had no influence and place in government.
There, we have it. Every one knows that is fact.

Dogma has no place in Government. Principle does.

Muslim principle?

 

[Gadawg73]

The new Government has my best Wishes and most fervent Prayers, for its Success and Prosperity: but whether I shall have any Thing more to do with it, besides praying for it, depends on the future suffrages of Freemen.
Letter to Thomas Jefferson (2 January 1789)

Thanks to God that he gave me stubbornness when I know I am right.
Letter to Edmund Jenings (1782),

I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution... It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

I have thought proper to recommend, and I do hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the 25th day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain as far as may be from their secular occupations, devote the time to the sacred duties of religion in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the Most High God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach' to any people;" that He would turn us from our transgressions and turn His displeasure from us; that He would withhold us from unreasonable discontent, from disunion, faction, sedition, and insurrection; that He would preserve our country from the desolating sword; that He would save our cities and towns from a repetition of those awful pestilential visitations under which they have lately suffered so severely, and that the health of our inhabitants generally may be precious in His sight; that He would favor us with fruitful seasons and so bless the labors of the husbandman as that there may be food in abundance for man and beast; that He would prosper our commerce, manufactures, and fisheries, and give success to the people in all their lawful industry and enterprise; that He would smile on our colleges, academies, schools, and seminaries of learning, and make them nurseries of sound science, morals, and religion; that He would bless all magistrates, from the highest to the lowest, give them the true spirit of their station, make them a terror to evil doers and a praise to them that do well; that He would preside over the councils of the nation at this critical period, enlighten them to a just discernment of the public interest, and save them from mistake, division, and discord; that He would make succeed our preparations for defense and bless our armaments by land and by sea; that He would put an end to the effusion of human blood and the accumulation of human misery among the contending nations of the earth by disposing them to justice, to equity, to benevolence, and to peace; and that he would extend the blessings of knowledge, of true liberty, and of pure and undefiled religion throughout the world.
John Adams Presidential proclamation of a national day of fasting and prayer (6 March 1789)

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

Name one politician that doesn't do the same in the history of this country.
Where is any of that in the LAW?
We are a nation of LAWS, not men and their religions.

 

[Care4all]

Well, if the posters here would stop misrepresenting and twisting the facts about our founding fathers and what the first amendment stands for we probably would not have an argument here....

Jefferson liked this proposal for our Nation's Seal so much that he took it for his own, when it was not used for our Nation.

In the story of America's Great Seal, a particularly relevant chapter is the imagery suggested by Benjamin Franklin in August 1776. He chose the dramatic scene described in Exodus, where people confronted a tyrant in order to gain their freedom.

"Pharaoh sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his head and a Sword in his hand, passing through the divided Waters of the Red Sea in Pursuit of the Israelites: Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Cloud, expressive of the divine Presence and Command, beaming on Moses who stands on the shore and extending his hand over the Sea causes it to overwhelm Pharaoh."

"Motto: Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

Quotation on the Jefferson Memorial Franklin's design was recommended by the first committee for the reverse side of the Great Seal. The above realization was made by Benson J. Lossing for Harper's New Monthly Magazine in July 1856. The first committee made no sketch (that survives) of their design – one that is more historical than religious

Thomas Jefferson liked the motto "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" so much, he used it on his personal seal. Also, it seems to have inspired the upper motto on the final reverse side of the Great Seal: Annuit Coeptis (God has favored our undertakings).

"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God - Ben Franklin's Motto for America

 

[Sky Dancer]

Well, if the posters here would stop misrepresenting and twisting the facts about our founding fathers and what the first amendment stands for we probably would not have an argument here....

Jefferson liked this proposal for our Nation's Seal so much that he took it for his own, when it was not used for our Nation.

In the story of America's Great Seal, a particularly relevant chapter is the imagery suggested by Benjamin Franklin in August 1776. He chose the dramatic scene described in Exodus, where people confronted a tyrant in order to gain their freedom.

"Pharaoh sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his head and a Sword in his hand, passing through the divided Waters of the Red Sea in Pursuit of the Israelites: Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Cloud, expressive of the divine Presence and Command, beaming on Moses who stands on the shore and extending his hand over the Sea causes it to overwhelm Pharaoh."

"Motto: Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

Quotation on the Jefferson Memorial Franklin's design was recommended by the first committee for the reverse side of the Great Seal. The above realization was made by Benson J. Lossing for Harper's New Monthly Magazine in July 1856. The first committee made no sketch (that survives) of their design – one that is more historical than religious

Thomas Jefferson liked the motto "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" so much, he used it on his personal seal. Also, it seems to have inspired the upper motto on the final reverse side of the Great Seal: Annuit Coeptis (God has favored our undertakings).

"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God - Ben Franklin's Motto for America

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

 

[Christopher]

Well, if the posters here would stop misrepresenting and twisting the facts about our founding fathers and what the first amendment stands for we probably would not have an argument here....

Jefferson liked this proposal for our Nation's Seal so much that he took it for his own, when it was not used for our Nation.

In the story of America's Great Seal, a particularly relevant chapter is the imagery suggested by Benjamin Franklin in August 1776. He chose the dramatic scene described in Exodus, where people confronted a tyrant in order to gain their freedom.

"Pharaoh sitting in an open Chariot, a Crown on his head and a Sword in his hand, passing through the divided Waters of the Red Sea in Pursuit of the Israelites: Rays from a Pillar of Fire in the Cloud, expressive of the divine Presence and Command, beaming on Moses who stands on the shore and extending his hand over the Sea causes it to overwhelm Pharaoh."

"Motto: Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God."

Quotation on the Jefferson Memorial Franklin's design was recommended by the first committee for the reverse side of the Great Seal. The above realization was made by Benson J. Lossing for Harper's New Monthly Magazine in July 1856. The first committee made no sketch (that survives) of their design – one that is more historical than religious

Thomas Jefferson liked the motto "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" so much, he used it on his personal seal. Also, it seems to have inspired the upper motto on the final reverse side of the Great Seal: Annuit Coeptis (God has favored our undertakings).

"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God - Ben Franklin's Motto for America

None the less, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, not Christians. An important distinction. They took great care to craft governing documents based on reason, not religion.

No, Jefferson was a Christian by his own admission. Yes, Franklin was a Deist, although he questioned his Deist beliefs later in life. See my reply to you earlier (post #415).

 

[Christopher]

No, I claim of the four founding fathers you said were Deists, three of them claimed otherwise, and the last does not meet your definition of a Deist. Please note that this puts the burden of proof on you, not me, because I have demonstrated that you are wrong about them from their own words and actions. Until you address the demonstrated fact that you are misinformed you cannot expect me, or anyone else, to accept your claim that most of the Founders were Deists, and not Christians.

The fact is that Jefferson claimed to be a Christian. The fact that he also believed that the Bible and the teachings of Christendom perverted the teachings of Jesus does not negate that claim, except in the minds of people who refuse to accept that any understanding of the Bible that their's is permissible. You have now proven yourself to be a religious fanatic who thinks that they have the sole right to interpret God's will and the Bible in order to define tho is, and is not, worthy of acceptance of God. Maybe you should join your soulmate Neubarth and condemn everyone who thinks for themselves to Hell.

You have earned my contempt.

Please re-read my post. It was in response to SkyDancer. I actually agree with your position.

Apologies. I was responding to SkyDancer so often I missed who was posting.

No worries.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The point is the Founders took care to assert it is "We the people" who govern, not God. They purposely left God out of the Constitution.

This is NOT a Christian nation. It is wrong to say America was founded on Christian principles. The Dominionists want everyone to go there because they seek a Christian theocracy.

Some Christian groups want a theocracy. They want the US to declare itself a Christian nation and they may let the rest of us practice our spiritual paths as long as we know our places.

"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. We must win the world with the power of the Gospel. And we must never settle for anything less... Thus, Christian politics has as its primary intent the conquest of the land -- of men, families, institutions, bureaucracies, courts, and governments for the Kingdom of Christ."

(From The Changing of the Guard: Biblical Principles for Political Action by George Grant, published in 1987 by Dominion Press)

Many conservative Christians at large advocate theocratic principles in a quest to conquer America, convinced that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and (now) needs to return to her "Christian heritage." Pseudo-historian David Barton, through his Wall Builders organization, has perhaps done the most to propagate the myth of America founded as a Christian nation. The theocratic movement is based on historical falsehoods (for example, the erroneous claim that most of America's founding fathers were Christians) and a belief that Old Testament laws should apply to America governance.
http://www.brucegourley.com/christiannation/theocracy.htm

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

The new Government has my best Wishes and most fervent Prayers, for its Success and Prosperity: but whether I shall have any Thing more to do with it, besides praying for it, depends on the future suffrages of Freemen.
Letter to Thomas Jefferson (2 January 1789)

Thanks to God that he gave me stubbornness when I know I am right.
Letter to Edmund Jenings (1782),

I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution... It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

I have thought proper to recommend, and I do hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the 25th day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain as far as may be from their secular occupations, devote the time to the sacred duties of religion in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the Most High God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach' to any people;" that He would turn us from our transgressions and turn His displeasure from us; that He would withhold us from unreasonable discontent, from disunion, faction, sedition, and insurrection; that He would preserve our country from the desolating sword; that He would save our cities and towns from a repetition of those awful pestilential visitations under which they have lately suffered so severely, and that the health of our inhabitants generally may be precious in His sight; that He would favor us with fruitful seasons and so bless the labors of the husbandman as that there may be food in abundance for man and beast; that He would prosper our commerce, manufactures, and fisheries, and give success to the people in all their lawful industry and enterprise; that He would smile on our colleges, academies, schools, and seminaries of learning, and make them nurseries of sound science, morals, and religion; that He would bless all magistrates, from the highest to the lowest, give them the true spirit of their station, make them a terror to evil doers and a praise to them that do well; that He would preside over the councils of the nation at this critical period, enlighten them to a just discernment of the public interest, and save them from mistake, division, and discord; that He would make succeed our preparations for defense and bless our armaments by land and by sea; that He would put an end to the effusion of human blood and the accumulation of human misery among the contending nations of the earth by disposing them to justice, to equity, to benevolence, and to peace; and that he would extend the blessings of knowledge, of true liberty, and of pure and undefiled religion throughout the world.
John Adams Presidential proclamation of a national day of fasting and prayer (6 March 1789)

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

Name one politician that doesn't do the same in the history of this country.
Where is any of that in the LAW?
We are a nation of LAWS, not men and their religions.

The Original Post claims that Jefferson, and 3 other founding fathers, did not use judaeo-christian principles in the founding of this country and went on to say they weren't "christian". This was my response showing how jefferson actually was fairly religious and had faith in providence.

Also check out Care4All's link about the seal...more contradicting evidence for the claim of the original poster.

You can clearly see in these men's writings and our founding documents that they beleived in a greater power and they believed that a faith in a greater power was necessary to the success of this country. They also tried to make sure NO religion would be discriminated against or dissalowwed in public or private.

 

[Christopher]

The point is the Founders took care to assert it is "We the people" who govern, not God. They purposely left God out of the Constitution.

This is NOT a Christian nation. It is wrong to say America was founded on Christian principles. The Dominionists want everyone to go there because they seek a Christian theocracy.

Some Christian groups want a theocracy. They want the US to declare itself a Christian nation and they may let the rest of us practice our spiritual paths as long as we know our places.

You have stated these points several times and I have not seen many disagree with you. At the same time you are not addressing the fact you were wrong about which founders were Christians and which were Deists. Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not you that asserted that most of those who signed the Constitution were not Christian?

What is wrong is to say that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The point is the Founders took care to assert it is "We the people" who govern, not God. They purposely left God out of the Constitution.

This is NOT a Christian nation. It is wrong to say America was founded on Christian principles. The Dominionists want everyone to go there because they seek a Christian theocracy.

Some Christian groups want a theocracy. They want the US to declare itself a Christian nation and they may let the rest of us practice our spiritual paths as long as we know our places.

You have stated these points several times and I have not seen many disagree with you. At the same time you are not addressing the fact you were wrong about which founders were Christians and which were Deists. Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not you that asserted that most of those who signed the Constitution were not Christian?

What is wrong is to say that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America.

What is wrong, is to state that the US was founded on Christian principles when it clearly was not.

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, but not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Jesus mentioned.

I'm taking care about this because there are dominionists who seek to make America a Christian theocracy by rewriting American history.

First and foremost the founders took care to not have a Christian nation because of King George. They did not want leaders who assumed the divine right of kings. (One could argue that Bush expanded Presidential powers so much that we almost had King George W Bush) Some of the domionists saw Bush as the first of their leaders.

The founders were a mixed bag. Some were Unitarian, some were deists and some were Christians. That doesn't mean that America was founded on Christian principles.

You have to rewrite history to go there. Actually, they are busy in Texas doing that very thing.

Our laws of laws of men, and reason. They are a result of the Enlightenment. The founders took great care to not have religion overrun the country.

I think we honor them when we take care to guard our liberties carefully from those who seek to make the US a Christian theocracy.

 

[AllieBaba]

The new Government has my best Wishes and most fervent Prayers, for its Success and Prosperity: but whether I shall have any Thing more to do with it, besides praying for it, depends on the future suffrages of Freemen.
Letter to Thomas Jefferson (2 January 1789)

Thanks to God that he gave me stubbornness when I know I am right.
Letter to Edmund Jenings (1782),

I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution... It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary festival. It ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires, and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forevermore.
Letter to Abigail Adams (3 July 1776)

I have thought proper to recommend, and I do hereby recommend accordingly, that Thursday, the 25th day of April next, be observed throughout the United States of America as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens on that day abstain as far as may be from their secular occupations, devote the time to the sacred duties of religion in public and in private; that they call to mind our numerous offenses against the Most High God, confess them before Him with the sincerest penitence, implore His pardoning mercy, through the Great Mediator and Redeemer, for our past transgressions, and that through the grace of His Holy Spirit we may be disposed and enabled to yield a more suitable obedience to His righteous requisitions in time to come; that He would interpose to arrest the progress of that impiety and licentiousness in principle and practice so offensive to Himself and so ruinous to mankind; that He would make us deeply sensible that "righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach' to any people;" that He would turn us from our transgressions and turn His displeasure from us; that He would withhold us from unreasonable discontent, from disunion, faction, sedition, and insurrection; that He would preserve our country from the desolating sword; that He would save our cities and towns from a repetition of those awful pestilential visitations under which they have lately suffered so severely, and that the health of our inhabitants generally may be precious in His sight; that He would favor us with fruitful seasons and so bless the labors of the husbandman as that there may be food in abundance for man and beast; that He would prosper our commerce, manufactures, and fisheries, and give success to the people in all their lawful industry and enterprise; that He would smile on our colleges, academies, schools, and seminaries of learning, and make them nurseries of sound science, morals, and religion; that He would bless all magistrates, from the highest to the lowest, give them the true spirit of their station, make them a terror to evil doers and a praise to them that do well; that He would preside over the councils of the nation at this critical period, enlighten them to a just discernment of the public interest, and save them from mistake, division, and discord; that He would make succeed our preparations for defense and bless our armaments by land and by sea; that He would put an end to the effusion of human blood and the accumulation of human misery among the contending nations of the earth by disposing them to justice, to equity, to benevolence, and to peace; and that he would extend the blessings of knowledge, of true liberty, and of pure and undefiled religion throughout the world.
John Adams Presidential proclamation of a national day of fasting and prayer (6 March 1789)

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

Name one politician that doesn't do the same in the history of this country.
Where is any of that in the LAW?
We are a nation of LAWS, not men and their religions.

And those laws are based upon Christian values and tenets. Our lawmakers swear on BIBLES to uphold the law, to tell the truth, to support the Constitution.

 

[Christopher]

The point is the Founders took care to assert it is "We the people" who govern, not God. They purposely left God out of the Constitution.

This is NOT a Christian nation. It is wrong to say America was founded on Christian principles. The Dominionists want everyone to go there because they seek a Christian theocracy.

Some Christian groups want a theocracy. They want the US to declare itself a Christian nation and they may let the rest of us practice our spiritual paths as long as we know our places.

You have stated these points several times and I have not seen many disagree with you. At the same time you are not addressing the fact you were wrong about which founders were Christians and which were Deists. Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not you that asserted that most of those who signed the Constitution were not Christian?

What is wrong is to say that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America.

What is wrong is to state that the US was founded on Christian principles when it clearly was not.

God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence but not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Jesus mentioned.

I'm taking care about this because there are dominionists who seek to make America a Christian theocracy by rewriting American history.

First and foremost they took care because of King George. They did not want leaders who assumed the divine right of kings. (One could argue we almost had King George W Bush). Some of the domionists saw Bush as the first of their leaders.

The founders were a mixed bag. Some were Unitarian, some were deists and some were Christians. That doesn't mean that America was founded on Christian principles.

You have to rewrite history to go there. Actually, they are busy in Texas doing that very thing.

Our laws of laws of men, and reason. They are a result of the Enlightenment. The founders took great care to not have religion overrun the country.

I think we honor them when we take care to guard our liberties carefully from those who seek to make the US a Christian theocracy.

I agree on most of what you are saying here, you seem to be repeating again. Do you always have difficulty answering a simple yes or no question? That was rhetorical by the way, no need to answer.

Here is another try at two yes or no questions. I am asking these honestly, because I think they get at the root of our disagreement:

Are you saying that the most of the founders were not Christian?
Are you saying that Christian principles had little or no influence on the founding of America?