The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[Foxfyre]

That I agree with...tho the Puritans sure tried.

Yes, the Puritans and some other groups did create their own little theocracies within the colonies and the new states. And the Founders, while they would not allow this in the federal government saw it as an unalienable right for the Puritans and other groups to form the society they wished to have. That is a concept we need to relearn.

History has worked out to show that with power of human freedom and unalienable rights protected for the first time in human history, every one of those little theocracies eventually peacefully dissolved and went away. By choice, not by decree.

Freedom won out over theocracy and no national theocracy has ever even threatened to form. Even strict Mormonism in Utah has given away to more tolerance and inclusiveness. Whenever unalienable rights are understood, recognized, and protected, humankind generally manages to arrive at a better place. We only get ourselves in trouble when we violate those rights in favor of different selfish and/or altruistic motives.

Actually they saw it as a horribly failed experiment and structured the federal government so it could NOT happen again.

Sorry, but it continued some time after the Constitution was ratified and the federal government did nothing to interfere with it. If I'm remembering the history right, I believe the last Puritan theocracy dissolved in 1799.

 

[peach174]

Do you actually think that Hitlers regime was based on;
Think for yourself - not - you were killed if you did not go along with the program.
Govern yourself - not - complete government control - totalitarianism
Take care of your neighbors - not - turn in your neighbors.

 

[AllieBaba]

The fact that some Christian beliefs and teachings are not exclusive to Christianity makes them no less Christian. Yes the Founding Fathers may not have been unique in all their beliefs, but they almost to a man attributed their beliefs to their Christian faith. And it was out of that faith and those beliefs that created a nation absolutely unique among nations--the first to recognize and protect God given unalienable rights of the people.

Also makes them no less values to people who aren't christian, which not every founding father was.

Hence why I don't think it's a blanket yes or no answer.

You're the one trying to make it a blanket statement. Because the premise is very limited...the US was founded upon Christian principle based upon the FF statements and certain foundation docs.

This is not to say that everybody who embraces those tenets is Christian. It isn't to say that all the FF were Christian. It isn't to say that the country is a theocracy, it isn't.

But this particular country, as developed by our founding fathers, was very deliberately founded on Christian principle. They decided to create a new country, they decided there would be no state religion, but they recognized (and said they recognized) that freedom and liberty come from God only, and as such are sacrosanct. That is the foundation of this country, and that is a Christian precept.

 

[Foxfyre]

The fact that some Christian beliefs and teachings are not exclusive to Christianity makes them no less Christian. Yes the Founding Fathers may not have been unique in all their beliefs, but they almost to a man attributed their beliefs to their Christian faith. And it was out of that faith and those beliefs that created a nation absolutely unique among nations--the first to recognize and protect God given unalienable rights of the people.

Also makes them no less values to people who aren't christian, which not every founding father was.

Hence why I don't think it's a blanket yes or no answer.

You're the one trying to make it a blanket statement. Because the premise is very limited...the US was founded upon Christian principle based upon the FF statements and certain foundation docs.

This is not to say that everybody who embraces those tenets is Christian. It isn't to say that all the FF were Christian. It isn't to say that the country is a theocracy, it isn't.

But this particular country, as developed by our founding fathers, was very deliberately founded on Christian principle. They decided to create a new country, they decided there would be no state religion, but they recognized (and said they recognized) that freedom and liberty come from God only, and as such are sacrosanct. That is the foundation of this country, and that is a Christian precept.

In fairness to Dr. Drock, I don't think he is making blanket statements. He very correctly pointed out that Christians cannot claim exclusive ownership of some of the tenets and convictions that went into the Declaration of Independence that in turn provided the underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. He is not dismissing a Christian influence but only arguing that all are not uniquely Christian concepts.

 

[bodecea]

That's what I thought. Just another strawman argument.

I don't think you're capable of honesty. You certainly don't possess any amount of integrity.

No it isn't a strawman....it is another example using the criteria for a Christian Country that YOU set up, Lonestar.

Now, explain...why is one country considered founded on Christian tenets and the other one isn't?

American 1770s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets..check

= Country founded on Christian tenets.

Germany 1930s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets...check

= ??? (Country founded on Christian tenets)

How can you not agree? You are the one who set the standard, not I.

It is a strawman because we aren't discussing any other nations founding, just this one.

But YOU gave me the criteria as to why this nation is a nation based on Christian tenets. Why wouldn't that criteria fit in all cases? What is the difference between America and Germany if YOUR criteria is met in both cases?

I could care less what principles Germany applied in it's founding. I do know that Hitler was not Germany's founding father.

Not talking about caring, simply talking about consistency....and Hitler WAS the founder of the Third Reich which they considered more than Germany, just like the Founders thought of the U.S. as more than the original 13 colonies.

 

[Spoonman]

yet they wrote in the constitution - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

They had the forsite to know government should be allowed no say in religion because they would do what governments had done in their previous experience. limit religion and try to control it. They gave religion the power to rise above government and not be influenced by government. Why would they give so much power to religion if they opposed it? But in the first amendment they took the time and effort to protect it.

 

[bodecea]

Also makes them no less values to people who aren't christian, which not every founding father was.

Hence why I don't think it's a blanket yes or no answer.

You're the one trying to make it a blanket statement. Because the premise is very limited...the US was founded upon Christian principle based upon the FF statements and certain foundation docs.

This is not to say that everybody who embraces those tenets is Christian. It isn't to say that all the FF were Christian. It isn't to say that the country is a theocracy, it isn't.

But this particular country, as developed by our founding fathers, was very deliberately founded on Christian principle. They decided to create a new country, they decided there would be no state religion, but they recognized (and said they recognized) that freedom and liberty come from God only, and as such are sacrosanct. That is the foundation of this country, and that is a Christian precept.

In fairness to Dr. Drock, I don't think he is making blanket statements. He very correctly pointed out that Christians cannot claim exclusive ownership of some of the tenets and convictions that went into the Declaration of Independence that in turn provided the underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. He is not dismissing a Christian influence but only arguing that all are not uniquely Christian concepts.

I got that from what he said too.

How can something be claimed as a Christian tenet when others besides Christians have those tenets and many of those tenets precede Christianity? Christianity does not, nor has it ever has a patent on goodness and fairness and kindness. It is chauvinism to think so. (It's similar to the bruhaha over saying Happy Holidays at Christmas time...and those who get all huffy and yell that Christmas is a Christian holiday and only a Christian holiday and how DARE people be inclusive with non-christians in their greetings....ok, I know that was off topic, but it DID come to mind as similar)

 

[bodecea]

yet they wrote in the constitution - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

They had the forsite to know government should be allowed no say in religion because they would do what governments had done in their previous experience. limit religion and try to control it. They gave religion the power to rise above government and not be influenced by government. Why would they give so much power to religion if they opposed it? But in the first amendment they took the time and effort to protect it.

Exactly...to protect religion FROM government. (Which is an obvious point...religion has a lot more to fear from government than government has to fear from religion)

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Also makes them no less values to people who aren't christian, which not every founding father was.

Hence why I don't think it's a blanket yes or no answer.

You're the one trying to make it a blanket statement. Because the premise is very limited...the US was founded upon Christian principle based upon the FF statements and certain foundation docs.

This is not to say that everybody who embraces those tenets is Christian. It isn't to say that all the FF were Christian. It isn't to say that the country is a theocracy, it isn't.

But this particular country, as developed by our founding fathers, was very deliberately founded on Christian principle. They decided to create a new country, they decided there would be no state religion, but they recognized (and said they recognized) that freedom and liberty come from God only, and as such are sacrosanct. That is the foundation of this country, and that is a Christian precept.

In fairness to Dr. Drock, I don't think he is making blanket statements. He very correctly pointed out that Christians cannot claim exclusive ownership of some of the tenets and convictions that went into the Declaration of Independence that in turn provided the underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. He is not dismissing a Christian influence but only arguing that all are not uniquely Christian concepts.

No one has or is declaring those tenets are exclusively Christian. His point is simply a red herring.

 

[bodecea]

The fact that some Christian beliefs and teachings are not exclusive to Christianity makes them no less Christian. Yes the Founding Fathers may not have been unique in all their beliefs, but they almost to a man attributed their beliefs to their Christian faith. And it was out of that faith and those beliefs that created a nation absolutely unique among nations--the first to recognize and protect God given unalienable rights of the people.

Also makes them no less values to people who aren't christian, which not every founding father was.

Hence why I don't think it's a blanket yes or no answer.

You're the one trying to make it a blanket statement. Because the premise is very limited...the US was founded upon Christian principle based upon the FF statements and certain foundation docs.

This is not to say that everybody who embraces those tenets is Christian. It isn't to say that all the FF were Christian. It isn't to say that the country is a theocracy, it isn't.

But this particular country, as developed by our founding fathers, was very deliberately founded on Christian principle. They decided to create a new country, they decided there would be no state religion, but they recognized (and said they recognized) that freedom and liberty come from God only, and as such are sacrosanct. That is the foundation of this country, and that is a Christian precept.

Actually they say it comes from our creator whoever that may be perceived to be...and that most certainly is NOT a christian precept.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

No it isn't a strawman....it is another example using the criteria for a Christian Country that YOU set up, Lonestar.

Now, explain...why is one country considered founded on Christian tenets and the other one isn't?

American 1770s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets..check

= Country founded on Christian tenets.

Germany 1930s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets...check

= ??? (Country founded on Christian tenets)

How can you not agree? You are the one who set the standard, not I.

It is a strawman because we aren't discussing any other nations founding, just this one.

But YOU gave me the criteria as to why this nation is a nation based on Christian tenets. Why wouldn't that criteria fit in all cases? What is the difference between America and Germany if YOUR criteria is met in both cases?

I could care less what principles Germany applied in it's founding. I do know that Hitler was not Germany's founding father.

Not talking about caring, simply talking about consistency....and Hitler WAS the founder of the Third Reich which they considered more than Germany, just like the Founders thought of the U.S. as more than the original 13 colonies.

Hitler was not the founder of Germany. Period.

 

[Spoonman]

yet they wrote in the constitution - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

They had the forsite to know government should be allowed no say in religion because they would do what governments had done in their previous experience. limit religion and try to control it. They gave religion the power to rise above government and not be influenced by government. Why would they give so much power to religion if they opposed it? But in the first amendment they took the time and effort to protect it.

Exactly...to protect religion FROM government. (Which is an obvious point...religion has a lot more to fear from government than government has to fear from religion)

don't go agreeing with me. i like it better when we argue

 

[bodecea]

You're the one trying to make it a blanket statement. Because the premise is very limited...the US was founded upon Christian principle based upon the FF statements and certain foundation docs.

This is not to say that everybody who embraces those tenets is Christian. It isn't to say that all the FF were Christian. It isn't to say that the country is a theocracy, it isn't.

But this particular country, as developed by our founding fathers, was very deliberately founded on Christian principle. They decided to create a new country, they decided there would be no state religion, but they recognized (and said they recognized) that freedom and liberty come from God only, and as such are sacrosanct. That is the foundation of this country, and that is a Christian precept.

In fairness to Dr. Drock, I don't think he is making blanket statements. He very correctly pointed out that Christians cannot claim exclusive ownership of some of the tenets and convictions that went into the Declaration of Independence that in turn provided the underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. He is not dismissing a Christian influence but only arguing that all are not uniquely Christian concepts.

No one has or is declaring those tenets are exclusively Christian. His point is simply a red herring.

IF they are not exclusively Christian, why are they labeled as Christian?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

In fairness to Dr. Drock, I don't think he is making blanket statements. He very correctly pointed out that Christians cannot claim exclusive ownership of some of the tenets and convictions that went into the Declaration of Independence that in turn provided the underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. He is not dismissing a Christian influence but only arguing that all are not uniquely Christian concepts.

No one has or is declaring those tenets are exclusively Christian. His point is simply a red herring.

IF they are not exclusively Christian, why are they labeled as Christian?

Because dumbass they are Christian tenets. They may be other religions tenets also but we know that the FF's were not of any other religion. They were for the most part Christians.


Damn, you are one stupid troll!

 

[Foxfyre]

You're the one trying to make it a blanket statement. Because the premise is very limited...the US was founded upon Christian principle based upon the FF statements and certain foundation docs.

This is not to say that everybody who embraces those tenets is Christian. It isn't to say that all the FF were Christian. It isn't to say that the country is a theocracy, it isn't.

But this particular country, as developed by our founding fathers, was very deliberately founded on Christian principle. They decided to create a new country, they decided there would be no state religion, but they recognized (and said they recognized) that freedom and liberty come from God only, and as such are sacrosanct. That is the foundation of this country, and that is a Christian precept.

In fairness to Dr. Drock, I don't think he is making blanket statements. He very correctly pointed out that Christians cannot claim exclusive ownership of some of the tenets and convictions that went into the Declaration of Independence that in turn provided the underpinnings of the U.S. Constitution. He is not dismissing a Christian influence but only arguing that all are not uniquely Christian concepts.

No one has or is declaring those tenets are exclusively Christian. His point is simply a red herring.

Well it may be or it may not be, but my point is that even if it was thrown in there as a red herring, it is still accurate. I don't know that he does, but some here absolutely do want to downplay a Christian influence in the foundations of our nation and what brought it about.

We can generously and accurately concede that Christians cannot claim credit for all virtue. We can also be accurate when we insist that the concept of God given unalienable rights that provides the anchoring cornerstone for the USA did come from the Christian faith and perspective of the Founding Fathers.

So, the United States of America was not founded upon Christianity or as a Christian nation. It was founded out of the Christian concept of unalienable rights as understood by the Founding Fathers. No other nation in the history of the world had recognized such rights or based it government on that principle.

Those same Founding Fathers also knew in their heart that if the new nation was not predominantly a nation committed to Christian concepts of morality and virtue, the great experiment would fail.

 

[bodecea]

No one has or is declaring those tenets are exclusively Christian. His point is simply a red herring.

IF they are not exclusively Christian, why are they labeled as Christian?

Because dumbass they are Christian tenets. They may be other religions tenets also but we know that the FF's were not of any other religion. They were for the most part Christians.


Damn, you are one stupid troll!

Hmmm....so they are not really ONLY Christian tenets. They are not even tenets invented by Christians...but because the founders claim christianity as their religion (most of them)...it's christian tenets.


Sorry, that's chauvanistic and just as untrue as if I were to say that our FFs were partiers for the most part that our country was based on partying tenets? Or if (as was true) our country's FFs were for the most part farmers, our country was based on farming tenets?

We are talking people that RAN AWAY from religious tyranny of the State...you know.

 

[bodecea]

No one has or is declaring those tenets are exclusively Christian. His point is simply a red herring.

IF they are not exclusively Christian, why are they labeled as Christian?

Because dumbass they are Christian tenets. They may be other religions tenets also but we know that the FF's were not of any other religion. They were for the most part Christians.


Damn, you are one stupid troll!

Why are they not called Religious tenets? Why are they not called Equality tenets? Why are they not called Enlightenment tenets?

They are NOT exclusively Christian.

NOT all Christian principles are found in them.

Unless you are chauvanistic, Christianity DOES NOT OWN these tenets that country was based on.

If Christianity did....why didn't Christian England have the same tenets? Why didn't Christian Mexico have the same tenets? Why didn't Christian France have the same tenets?

 

[Spoonman]

IF they are not exclusively Christian, why are they labeled as Christian?

Because dumbass they are Christian tenets. They may be other religions tenets also but we know that the FF's were not of any other religion. They were for the most part Christians.


Damn, you are one stupid troll!

Why are they not called Religious tenets? Why are they not called Equality tenets? Why are they not called Enlightenment tenets?

They are NOT exclusively Christian.

NOT all Christian principles are found in them.

Unless you are chauvanistic, Christianity DOES NOT OWN these tenets that country was based on.

If Christianity did....why didn't Christian England have the same tenets? Why didn't Christian Mexico have the same tenets? Why didn't Christian France have the same tenets?

because they speak different languages. duh!

 

[bodecea]

It is a strawman because we aren't discussing any other nations founding, just this one.

But YOU gave me the criteria as to why this nation is a nation based on Christian tenets. Why wouldn't that criteria fit in all cases? What is the difference between America and Germany if YOUR criteria is met in both cases?

I could care less what principles Germany applied in it's founding. I do know that Hitler was not Germany's founding father.

Not talking about caring, simply talking about consistency....and Hitler WAS the founder of the Third Reich which they considered more than Germany, just like the Founders thought of the U.S. as more than the original 13 colonies.

Hitler was not the founder of Germany. Period.

Does that change anything about the Criteria that YOU set up that you somehow want applied to America as evidence but you don't want applied to Germany as evidence?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

IF they are not exclusively Christian, why are they labeled as Christian?

Because dumbass they are Christian tenets. They may be other religions tenets also but we know that the FF's were not of any other religion. They were for the most part Christians.


Damn, you are one stupid troll!

Hmmm....so they are not really ONLY Christian tenets. They are not even tenets invented by Christians...but because the founders claim christianity as their religion (most of them)...it's christian tenets.


Sorry, that's chauvanistic and just as untrue as if I were to say that our FFs were partiers for the most part that our country was based on partying tenets? Or if (as was true) our country's FFs were for the most part farmers, our country was based on farming tenets?

We are talking people that RAN AWAY from religious tyranny of the State...you know.

You really should learn your history.