The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[AllieBaba]

So, the secular government was based on Christian principles just because one of its founders may have said something like this.



or even founders/politicians saying something like this?



and this:

We know exactly what they said. They said, exactly, that they founded the nation on Christian principle.

No need to rephrase, misquote, or pretend. They said it.

Those are not rephrases, those are not misquotes, those are not pretentions...they are real quotes...and yes they said them....

This professed Christian said them:

Adolf Hitler - Roman Catholic

and other founders of his nation
Hermann Goering - Lutheran
Heinrich Himmler - Roman Catholic
Martin Bormann - Lutheran
Joseph Goebbels - Roman Catholic

Yeah, well given your propensity to lie, I'll just disregard them.

They're irrelevant (completely and totally), anyway and do nothing to prove the FF were either intentionally lying or just ignorant when they said they were founding the country on Christian values.

 

[bodecea]

Yes Way !
The meaning of separation of Church and state meant government or sates could not have one religion sanctioned by them. No state could say they were promoting or supporting one religion over any other.
This is why people came here for freedom to worship as they pleased. The courts are dead wrong on this ruling, they based it on one writing and not all of the other facts.
And guess what else, Government should not have a department of education. Ever since the department was signed into law by President Jimmy Carter our schools education has gone downhill.

Off topic, but what the heck....Why shouldn't the government have a dept of education?

Education of our children has gone downhill
Perfect example - you can't read.

Wait...are you saying that education was fine until Carter and THEN it went downhill?
(BTW, I can read just fine....I was waiting for you to confirm what you did....:lol)

 

[AllieBaba]

And again....whether or not the country was formed on Christian principle has absolutely nothing to do with the faith of the founding fathers. I guess that's the point you were making with your (again irrelevant) list of nasty individuals who you say were Christians. Or specifically RC, or whatever.

 

[AllieBaba]

And what's with the constant requests that people rephrase and restate, over and over?

I know what it is...it's your feeble attempt to get people to say what you want them to say, as opposed to what they really said and meant.

 

[bodecea]

We know exactly what they said. They said, exactly, that they founded the nation on Christian principle.

No need to rephrase, misquote, or pretend. They said it.

Those are not rephrases, those are not misquotes, those are not pretentions...they are real quotes...and yes they said them....

This professed Christian said them:

Adolf Hitler - Roman Catholic

and other founders of his nation
Hermann Goering - Lutheran
Heinrich Himmler - Roman Catholic
Martin Bormann - Lutheran
Joseph Goebbels - Roman Catholic

Yeah, well given your propensity to lie, I'll just disregard them.

They're irrelevant (completely and totally), anyway and do nothing to prove the FF were either intentionally lying or just ignorant when they said they were founding the country on Christian values.

Wait, wait wait.

Those are indeed exact quotes from Hitler and those people were of those religions listed.....just like you presented to me.

Why is CHristianity the basis of one nation because of quotes and religions of the founders and NOT the basis of another nation becaues of quotes and religions of the founders?


Explain, please.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

So, the secular government was based on Christian principles just because one of its founders may have said something like this.



or even founders/politicians saying something like this?



and this:

I don't recall any of our founding fathers making those statements. PLease direct the quote to the person it belongs to, for futher examination.

My guess is you're building yet another strawman.

Done...read up a few posts.

That's what I thought. Just another strawman argument.

I don't think you're capable of honesty. You certainly don't possess any amount of integrity.

 

[AllieBaba]

Those are not rephrases, those are not misquotes, those are not pretentions...they are real quotes...and yes they said them....

This professed Christian said them:

Adolf Hitler - Roman Catholic

and other founders of his nation
Hermann Goering - Lutheran
Heinrich Himmler - Roman Catholic
Martin Bormann - Lutheran
Joseph Goebbels - Roman Catholic

Yeah, well given your propensity to lie, I'll just disregard them.

They're irrelevant (completely and totally), anyway and do nothing to prove the FF were either intentionally lying or just ignorant when they said they were founding the country on Christian values.

Wait, wait wait.

Those are indeed exact quotes from Hitler and those people were of those religions listed.....just like you presented to me.

Why is CHristianity the basis of one nation because of quotes and religions of the founders and NOT the basis of another nation becaues of quotes and religions of the founders?


Explain, please.

Because Hitler and the others didn't SAY they were founding a country on Christian principles.

It's really pretty simple.

 

[Foxfyre]

Just a few comments from our Founding Fathers--the intent of each statement stands alone out of context here or when placed within its full context:

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.
If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

BOTTOM LINE: America was not founded as a Christian nation for as devout as these men were, they knew the dangers should any Church by any name become a ruling influence and also the danger to our rights should government have power over human thought and beliefs. But their beliefs and convictions regarding unalienable rights and the role of moral virtue in protecting those came right out of their Christian playbooks.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Yes they are Christian values

Can only christians have those values?

Seems to me people of all backgrounds and religions and non-religions can also have those principles, which would seem like it's silly to attribute those values to one particular religion.

What part of it goes across the board to all don't you get?

The point i don't get the labeling them as christian, when people had those principles before christianity came about, people of other religions have had those principles, people without religion have had them, etc etc.

So the principles weren't originally christian, and aren't solely christian now, yet to you they're christian principles. That's the part I don't get.

Why the christian label? Why not just call them principles?

 

[AllieBaba]

They are Christian principles because that's the way the founding fathers referenced them. They were applying CHRISTIAN principles to the foundation of the nation.

If you want to argue about whether or not Christian values are actually Christian values, that's an entirely different subject and has no bearing on whether or not the founding fathers were referencing the Bible and Christian principle when they formed the country. They said they were. I believe them.

 

[AllieBaba]

Just a few comments from our Founding Fathers--the intent of each statement stands alone out of context here or when placed within its full context:

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.
If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

BOTTOM LINE: America was not founded as a Christian nation for as devout as these men were, they knew the dangers should any Church by any name become a ruling influence and also the danger to our rights should government have power over human thought and beliefs. But their beliefs and convictions regarding unalienable rights and the role of moral virtue in protecting those came right out of their Christian playbooks.

The US has a Christian foundation but is NOT a theocracy. Exactly.

 

[bodecea]

I don't recall any of our founding fathers making those statements. PLease direct the quote to the person it belongs to, for futher examination.

My guess is you're building yet another strawman.

Done...read up a few posts.

That's what I thought. Just another strawman argument.

I don't think you're capable of honesty. You certainly don't possess any amount of integrity.

No it isn't a strawman....it is another example using the criteria for a Christian Country that YOU set up, Lonestar.

Now, explain...why is one country considered founded on Christian tenets and the other one isn't?

American 1770s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets..check

= Country founded on Christian tenets.

Germany 1930s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets...check

= ??? (Country founded on Christian tenets)

How can you not agree? You are the one who set the standard, not I.

 

[bodecea]

Just a few comments from our Founding Fathers--the intent of each statement stands alone out of context here or when placed within its full context:

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.
If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

BOTTOM LINE: America was not founded as a Christian nation for as devout as these men were, they knew the dangers should any Church by any name become a ruling influence and also the danger to our rights should government have power over human thought and beliefs. But their beliefs and convictions regarding unalienable rights and the role of moral virtue in protecting those came right out of their Christian playbooks.

The US has a Christian foundation but is NOT a theocracy. Exactly.

That I agree with...tho the Puritans sure tried.

 

[Foxfyre]

The fact that some Christian beliefs and teachings are not exclusive to Christianity makes them no less Christian. Yes the Founding Fathers may not have been unique in all their beliefs, but they almost to a man attributed their beliefs to their Christian faith. And it was out of that faith and those beliefs that created a nation absolutely unique among nations--the first to recognize and protect God given unalienable rights of the people.

 

[Dr.Drock]

They are Christian principles because that's the way the founding fathers referenced them. They were applying CHRISTIAN principles to the foundation of the nation.

If you want to argue about whether or not Christian values are actually Christian values, that's an entirely different subject and has no bearing on whether or not the founding fathers were referencing the Bible and Christian principle when they formed the country. They said they were. I believe them.

Allie that's a blanket statement, you know not every founding father said this nation was founded on christian values.

You can argue some did, you can even argue a majority did, all? Of course not.

To some of them they were christian values, to others they weren't, my answer is the most boring but I think it's also the most accurate.

 

[Dr.Drock]

The fact that some Christian beliefs and teachings are not exclusive to Christianity makes them no less Christian. Yes the Founding Fathers may not have been unique in all their beliefs, but they almost to a man attributed their beliefs to their Christian faith. And it was out of that faith and those beliefs that created a nation absolutely unique among nations--the first to recognize and protect God given unalienable rights of the people.

Also makes them no less values to people who aren't christian, which not every founding father was.

Hence why I don't think it's a blanket yes or no answer.

 

[Foxfyre]

Just a few comments from our Founding Fathers--the intent of each statement stands alone out of context here or when placed within its full context:

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

"The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
--Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath?
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

"When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good."
--Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.
If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God."
--Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh ... If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind."
--Sermon at Princeton University, "The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men," May 17, 1776.

BOTTOM LINE: America was not founded as a Christian nation for as devout as these men were, they knew the dangers should any Church by any name become a ruling influence and also the danger to our rights should government have power over human thought and beliefs. But their beliefs and convictions regarding unalienable rights and the role of moral virtue in protecting those came right out of their Christian playbooks.

The US has a Christian foundation but is NOT a theocracy. Exactly.

That I agree with...tho the Puritans sure tried.

Yes, the Puritans and some other groups did create their own little theocracies within the colonies and the new states. And the Founders, while they would not allow this in the federal government saw it as an unalienable right for the Puritans and other groups to form the society they wished to have. That is a concept we need to relearn.

History has worked out to show that with power of human freedom and unalienable rights protected for the first time in human history, every one of those little theocracies eventually peacefully dissolved and went away. By choice, not by decree.

Freedom won out over theocracy and no national theocracy has ever even threatened to form. Even strict Mormonism in Utah has given away to more tolerance and inclusiveness. Whenever unalienable rights are understood, recognized, and protected, humankind generally manages to arrive at a better place. We only get ourselves in trouble when we violate those rights in favor of different selfish and/or altruistic motives.

 

[TheBrain]

Christian "principles" do not lead to a SECULAR state.

Which we clearly, very clearly, have.

Silly debate this.

So you claim that all Christians want a theocracy? What a joke.

 

[bodecea]

The US has a Christian foundation but is NOT a theocracy. Exactly.

That I agree with...tho the Puritans sure tried.

Yes, the Puritans and some other groups did create their own little theocracies within the colonies and the new states. And the Founders, while they would not allow this in the federal government saw it as an unalienable right for the Puritans and other groups to form the society they wished to have. That is a concept we need to relearn.

History has worked out to show that with power of human freedom and unalienable rights protected for the first time in human history, every one of those little theocracies eventually peacefully dissolved and went away. By choice, not by decree.

Freedom won out over theocracy and no national theocracy has ever even threatened to form. Even strict Mormonism in Utah has given away to more tolerance and inclusiveness. Whenever unalienable rights are understood, recognized, and protected, humankind generally manages to arrive at a better place. We only get ourselves in trouble when we violate those rights in favor of different selfish and/or altruistic motives.

Actually they saw it as a horribly failed experiment and structured the federal government so it could NOT happen again.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Done...read up a few posts.

That's what I thought. Just another strawman argument.

I don't think you're capable of honesty. You certainly don't possess any amount of integrity.

No it isn't a strawman....it is another example using the criteria for a Christian Country that YOU set up, Lonestar.

Now, explain...why is one country considered founded on Christian tenets and the other one isn't?

American 1770s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets..check

= Country founded on Christian tenets.

Germany 1930s

1. Founders professed Christian...check

2. Founders give speeches and write letters saying they are using Christian tenets...check

= ??? (Country founded on Christian tenets)

How can you not agree? You are the one who set the standard, not I.

It is a strawman because we aren't discussing any other nations founding, just this one.

I could care less what principles Germany applied in it's founding. I do know that Hitler was not Germany's founding father.