The World Is Sick Of Israeli Atrocities...

[aris2chat]

Elections are coming. Obama will be gone. And then Palestinians will be crushed. Let the two sides fight it out and who ever lives gets the land.

11:59 am on January 20, 2017

 

[aris2chat]

There was no such thing as "Palestinians" before this conflict came to be. There were only the occasional nomads passing through the area back then. It was not inhabitable. The Israelis MADE Israel/Gaza what it is today.

The Truth about the Palestinian People

The 1948 Israeli War of Independence was between the neighboring Arab countries and the newly formed state of Israel. The Arab countries did not send troops to help the people that are today known as "Palestinians" but rather they sent troops to drive the Jews into the sea. Most of the "Palestinian Arabs" fled to avoid the fighting. Remember, in 1948 they were not referred to as "Palestinians". This name was was created by the Soviet disinformation masters in 1964 when they created the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO). The term"Palestinian People" as a description of Arabs in Palestine appeared for the first time in the preamble of the 1964 PLO Charter, drafted in Moscow. The Charter was affirmed by the first 422 members of the Palestinian National Council, handpicked by the KGB. This term was formally used by newspapers around the world after 1967.

United Nations Resolution 181 recommended a partition of the territory from the British Mandate for Palestine into two states - one for Jews and one for Palestinian Arabs. But the rejection of partition by the Arabs left in place as the legally operative Mandate for Palestine, the 1924 Anglo-American Convention, and Article 80 of the United Nations Charter. All of the Arab countries objected to the creation of the Jewish state and fought a war against its creation. This was Israel's War of Independence in 1948. Despite their superior numbers, the Arab countries lost the war and the Palestinian state never materialized because of this loss. In the war that was waged, the territory allotted to be the Palestinian state by the UN partition resolution was divided between Israel and Jordan. The "Palestinian Arabs" were rejected by every single Arab country, with the exception of the small percentage that ended up in refugee camps in Jordan where they remain to this day.

Multiple people have posted repeated links to historical data indicating that area was by no means inhabited by only "occasional nomads" but had a significant permanent population that had been there for centuries. They myth that it was largely "uninhabited" other than "occassional nomads" is just that, a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.

Look at the source you are using and what it has to say about itself:

Target Of Opportunity
This website is a list and record of people that betray and endanger America by their Seditious, Treasonous, and/or Terrorist activities. Operating under the false illusion of Peaceful and Non-Violent activism, their methods are anything but Peaceful and Non-Violent. These people present a serious threat to all Americans. Each and every one of them should be considered a
TARGET OF OPPORTUNITY

What the heck kind of site is that and why should anything it says be taken seriously?

That is not the only source. Multiple, multiple sources confirm the same data. I've posted at LEAST 3 other links here that give the same data. There was NO Palestine. It is a made-up place. It did not exist before the creation of Israel. It WAS a mostly uninhabitable territory owned by Arab kings which was taken over by the British and mandated to become half a Jewish state and half an Arab state by the UN. The Arabs would not accept that because of their BIGOTRY, and they tried to attack the Israelis, but the Israelis fought back and won, AND they won the land that you call "palestine."

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Always been team Israel's ground rules that Palestine was never a nation just an undefined area in the M.E.

It was a population in constant flux with highs and lows throughout history but it never reached it occupational density of pre roman times after the diaspora. Even the arab muslims shunned the land because it was too harsh and not easily tamed.

The people who inhabited the region did exist, but arab muslims did not for 700 years after the diaspora. Then after holding control of a small part they were beaten and expelled by the Crusaders.

The census is correct but I wonder how many of those muslims were arab and how many were Turkish, Egyptian or Iranian all non arab muslims . I also wonder how many people were refused the right to fill in the census forms, or duplicated the forms. This happened in the Palestinian territories only a short time ago so that UNWRA could get more money for the terrorists.

A load of bullshit as usual.

Palestinians, people of the Roman provinces of Palestina have been of many religions ranging from those that worshiped the Roman religions, Judaism, Christianity and most recently Islam. They are the same people whatever the religion or language they speak.

In fact, Palestine has always been one of the most fertile of the Middle East and there were few areas not being cultivated in the late 1800s, as confirmed by Ahad Ha'am after one of his visits to the area in the late 1800s:

"We tend to believe abroad that Palestine is nowadays almost completely deserted, an uncultivated wilderness, and anyone can come there and buy as much land as his heart desires. But in reality this is not the case. It is difficult to find anywhere in the country Arab land which lies fallow."

David Goldberg The 1907 writings of one traveller to Palestine vividly describe the roots of the region s enmity Comment is free The Guardian

As far as the demographic make up prior to the 1850s and after we have confirmation of that to via the Mandatory's Interim Report of 1921, which confirms that there were but a handful of Jews in Palestine prior to 1850 and that the Muslims made up four fifths of the population in 1921.and that they were not Arabs (only Bedouins are pure Arabians), but of mixed race, which is what Palestinians have always been:

"Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants..... Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews"

. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations Balfour Declaration text 30 July 1921

70% was uncultivated

 

[montelatici]

The other bit of propaganda is that the Jews had fewer numbers and military power than the Arabs. The Palestinians would have been either massacred or ethnically cleansed by the Jews whether the attempt by the Arab states to prevent their ethnic cleansing occurred or not.


"In short, the Palestinians had no significant military capacity. They were a typical colonial society. Already before May 1948, they had suffered at least 5,000 casualties. While the Israelis talked of the threat of an Arab-inflicted holocaust, “They were fully aware that the Arab war rhetoric was in no way matched by any serious preparation on the ground.”

Fourth, in every category, the Zionists had overwhelming superiority. Since much of the information in this section was sternly denied for years I have checked what I have collected against the two major and more recent Israeli accounts, both of which were derived from Israeli military and political archives........By May 1948, the Haganah numbered 35,700 standing troops of whom 2,200 were the Special Forces of Palmach. That is, as Benny Morris pointed out, the Yishuv army numbered some 5,500 more soldiers than the combined strength of the regular Arab armies and paramilitary Palestinian forces. In addition, Haganah could draw on 9,500 members of the paramilitary youth corps. By July 1948, when the Haganah was renamed the Israel Defense Force, it had 63,000 men under arms. Perhaps more important than numbers, it had a command and control capability that allowed it to conduct division-size or multiple-brigade, operations. No Arab force even remotely approached its power."

In 1948 Jewish Forces in Palestine outnumbered Palestinian and Arab Fighters Informed Comment

Now how many standing troops and armaments did the combined arab armies have monti. How many tanks, fighter planes, bombers and fighting ships compared to the Israelis Lee Enfield single shot rifles, tractors covered in steel sheets and WW1 guns. How many Jews did the Palestinians mass murder from 1890 to 1948 causing the Jews to form defence groups to fight back against arab nationalism ( read national socialism or Nazi ) You can bluster all you want but the evidence is out there for all to see about ISLAMONAZI atrocities and mass murders leading up to the war of 1948. The arabs thought that the Jews would just roll over and give up, and it was a shock when they fought back and gave the arabs a beating they would call the nakba. What a loss of honour that was for the arabs to be beaten by a rag tag army of old men and young boys armed with muzzle loaders and pitch forks.

"By mid May, shortly after the international phase
of conflict began, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) fielded over 35,000 troops in
comparison to the collective Arab force which fell under 25, 000. Israel now had more
troops; her soldiers had gained more experience than Arab soldiers who entered the
war in May; she was arming her troops at a much higher rate; and generally had
higher military capabilities than her enemies. Israel’s troops were also more
effectively trained in the majority of cases......
When Israel had inferior weaponry and failed to outnumber her enemy she suffered
setbacks and defeats. Israel was effectively losing in the early months of the Civil War.
On the Arab side “only the 7, 400 troops of Transjordan’s King Abdullah, trained and
equipped by the British, performed with military competence”7
(Gartner:2001,393).
However due to an Israeli-Transjordanian agreement partitioning Palestine, this army
had little impact on the outcome of the war.

http://thebigqs.files.wordpress.com...tory-over-the-arabs-between-1947-and-1949.pdf

Add to that the fact that notwithstanding the arms embargo on both parties, the Jews were resupplied with ammunition and new armament throughout the campaign while the Palestinians and the Arab armies were blockaded.

 

[montelatici]

Multiple people have posted repeated links to historical data indicating that area was by no means inhabited by only "occasional nomads" but had a significant permanent population that had been there for centuries. They myth that it was largely "uninhabited" other than "occassional nomads" is just that, a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.

Look at the source you are using and what it has to say about itself:
What the heck kind of site is that and why should anything it says be taken seriously?

That is not the only source. Multiple, multiple sources confirm the same data. I've posted at LEAST 3 other links here that give the same data. There was NO Palestine. It is a made-up place. It did not exist before the creation of Israel. It WAS a mostly uninhabitable territory owned by Arab kings which was taken over by the British and mandated to become half a Jewish state and half an Arab state by the UN. The Arabs would not accept that because of their BIGOTRY, and they tried to attack the Israelis, but the Israelis fought back and won, AND they won the land that you call "palestine."

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Always been team Israel's ground rules that Palestine was never a nation just an undefined area in the M.E.

It was a population in constant flux with highs and lows throughout history but it never reached it occupational density of pre roman times after the diaspora. Even the arab muslims shunned the land because it was too harsh and not easily tamed.

The people who inhabited the region did exist, but arab muslims did not for 700 years after the diaspora. Then after holding control of a small part they were beaten and expelled by the Crusaders.

The census is correct but I wonder how many of those muslims were arab and how many were Turkish, Egyptian or Iranian all non arab muslims . I also wonder how many people were refused the right to fill in the census forms, or duplicated the forms. This happened in the Palestinian territories only a short time ago so that UNWRA could get more money for the terrorists.

A load of bullshit as usual.

Palestinians, people of the Roman provinces of Palestina have been of many religions ranging from those that worshiped the Roman religions, Judaism, Christianity and most recently Islam. They are the same people whatever the religion or language they speak.

In fact, Palestine has always been one of the most fertile of the Middle East and there were few areas not being cultivated in the late 1800s, as confirmed by Ahad Ha'am after one of his visits to the area in the late 1800s:

"We tend to believe abroad that Palestine is nowadays almost completely deserted, an uncultivated wilderness, and anyone can come there and buy as much land as his heart desires. But in reality this is not the case. It is difficult to find anywhere in the country Arab land which lies fallow."

David Goldberg The 1907 writings of one traveller to Palestine vividly describe the roots of the region s enmity Comment is free The Guardian

As far as the demographic make up prior to the 1850s and after we have confirmation of that to via the Mandatory's Interim Report of 1921, which confirms that there were but a handful of Jews in Palestine prior to 1850 and that the Muslims made up four fifths of the population in 1921.and that they were not Arabs (only Bedouins are pure Arabians), but of mixed race, which is what Palestinians have always been:

"Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants..... Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews"

. - See more at: Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations Balfour Declaration text 30 July 1921

70% was uncultivated

Propaganda:

"We tend to believe abroad that Palestine is nowadays almost completely deserted, an uncultivated wilderness, and anyone can come there and buy as much land as his heart desires. But in reality this is not the case. It is difficult to find anywhere in the country Arab land which lies fallow."

Ahad Ha'am in the 1890s

David Goldberg The 1907 writings of one traveller to Palestine vividly describe the roots of the region s enmity Comment is free The Guardian

 

[aris2chat]

Video: Muslim Rage over EU's UN Pro-Israel Walkout - Global Agenda - News - Arutz Sheva http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/185974…

 

[montelatici]

What do you expect? Europe are America's, hence Israel's, puppets.

 

[docmauser1]

Add to that the fact that notwithstanding the arms embargo on both parties, the Jews were resupplied with ammunition and new armament throughout the campaign while the Palestinians and the Arab armies were blockaded.

Our honorable montelatici loaned the bullshit spray from our honorable pbel.

 

[Slyhunter]

What do you expect? Europe are America's, hence Israel's, puppets.

Bullshit.

 

[Coyote]

The UK held the trump card many times over in Northern Ireland, but the Protestants had to compromise and eventually, the Catholics will takeover through demographics. Best that the Jews make a deal now that they are at the apex of their power and relative population difference.

I think given what is occurring in the ME, it's in Israel's (and the Palestinian's) best interest to make a deal. It's not necessarily demographics but the likely chance that the Israel, and it's Arab neighbors will need to work together to deal with ISIS, Iraq, Syria and Libya all of which are in a state of chaos. Settling the Palestinian issue now, while Hamas has lost a lot of support and popularity would be beneficial for it. No one is going to support massive population transfers to another country though.

" According to a new poll of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh would trounce Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas were a two-man election to be held today. That puts Hamas back in pole position for the first time since 2006. The group’s TV station, Al Aqsa, has become the No. 1 channel watched by Palestinians – by a margin of 15 percentage points. And 70 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank say they want to adopt Hamas’s armed approach. "

After Gaza war Hamas on a high but for how long video - CSMonitor.com

This 9/14/2014 poll concludes: Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No -53 PCPSR

This post-war poll was conducted one month after the end of the war in the Gaza Strip. This report highlights important changes in public perception compared to the findings we obtained in our previous poll which was conducted a month ago, immediately after the war end. Findings show a drop in satisfaction with the achievements of the war, probably due to the continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip. A drop was also found in the percentage of those who believed Hamas won the war, in the percentage of opposition to dissolving armed groups in the Gaza Strip, and in the popularity of Hamas and Ismail Haniyeh. Findings also show a rise in the popularity of Abbas and Fatah. Support for a third armed intifada went down in this poll as support for negotiations increased and a majority supported the two-state solution.

Despite the drop in support for the Islamists, Hamas and Haniyeh remain more popular than Fatah and Abbas. Moreover, a majority still supports launching rockets against Israel if the siege and the blockade are not ended. Furthermore, satisfaction with Abbas remains low. Finally, two thirds of the public oppose merging Hamas’ al Qassam Brigades into the Palestinian National Security Forces.

Findings also show significant drop in the level of optimism regarding the chances for a successful implementation of the reconciliation agreement and indicate continued drop in the level of satisfaction with the performance of the reconciliation government. Indeed, a majority supports replacing the reconciliation government with a national unity government made up of factional leaders and politicians. Despite all that, a majority wants the reconciliation government to control crossings with Egypt and Israel and wants it to have control over Gaza’s public sector including those in the security services.​

IMO, Israel has done nothing to help strengthen Abbas' position, in fact it seems to undermine it at every opportunity which makes me wonder if peace and/or a two state solution is it's true desire.

 

[pbel]

The UK held the trump card many times over in Northern Ireland, but the Protestants had to compromise and eventually, the Catholics will takeover through demographics. Best that the Jews make a deal now that they are at the apex of their power and relative population difference.

I think given what is occurring in the ME, it's in Israel's (and the Palestinian's) best interest to make a deal. It's not necessarily demographics but the likely chance that the Israel, and it's Arab neighbors will need to work together to deal with ISIS, Iraq, Syria and Libya all of which are in a state of chaos. Settling the Palestinian issue now, while Hamas has lost a lot of support and popularity would be beneficial for it. No one is going to support massive population transfers to another country though.

" According to a new poll of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh would trounce Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas were a two-man election to be held today. That puts Hamas back in pole position for the first time since 2006. The group’s TV station, Al Aqsa, has become the No. 1 channel watched by Palestinians – by a margin of 15 percentage points. And 70 percent of Palestinians in the West Bank say they want to adopt Hamas’s armed approach. "

After Gaza war Hamas on a high but for how long video - CSMonitor.com

This 9/14/2014 poll concludes: Palestinian Public Opinion Poll No -53 PCPSR

This post-war poll was conducted one month after the end of the war in the Gaza Strip. This report highlights important changes in public perception compared to the findings we obtained in our previous poll which was conducted a month ago, immediately after the war end. Findings show a drop in satisfaction with the achievements of the war, probably due to the continued siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip. A drop was also found in the percentage of those who believed Hamas won the war, in the percentage of opposition to dissolving armed groups in the Gaza Strip, and in the popularity of Hamas and Ismail Haniyeh. Findings also show a rise in the popularity of Abbas and Fatah. Support for a third armed intifada went down in this poll as support for negotiations increased and a majority supported the two-state solution.

Despite the drop in support for the Islamists, Hamas and Haniyeh remain more popular than Fatah and Abbas. Moreover, a majority still supports launching rockets against Israel if the siege and the blockade are not ended. Furthermore, satisfaction with Abbas remains low. Finally, two thirds of the public oppose merging Hamas’ al Qassam Brigades into the Palestinian National Security Forces.

Findings also show significant drop in the level of optimism regarding the chances for a successful implementation of the reconciliation agreement and indicate continued drop in the level of satisfaction with the performance of the reconciliation government. Indeed, a majority supports replacing the reconciliation government with a national unity government made up of factional leaders and politicians. Despite all that, a majority wants the reconciliation government to control crossings with Egypt and Israel and wants it to have control over Gaza’s public sector including those in the security services.​

IMO, Israel has done nothing to help strengthen Abbas' position, in fact it seems to undermine it at every opportunity which makes me wonder if peace and/or a two state solution is it's true desire.

Israel is not serious about peace, she created the Gaza offensive as a diversion from the Peace Talks demanded by the World and lackey America...

She will never go back to the 67 armistice line...Anyone who accepts less on Jerusalem will end up murdered by their own. people like Sadat and Rabin.

The Ethnic Cleansers Rule...

 

[docmauser1]

IMO, Israel has done nothing to help strengthen Abbas' position, in fact it seems to undermine it at every opportunity which makes me wonder if peace and/or a two state solution is it's true desire.

And what has that illegal presidente, Abu Mazen, done worthy of a pat on the back?

 

[Coyote]

Multiple people have posted repeated links to historical data indicating that area was by no means inhabited by only "occasional nomads" but had a significant permanent population that had been there for centuries. They myth that it was largely "uninhabited" other than "occassional nomads" is just that, a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.

Look at the source you are using and what it has to say about itself:
What the heck kind of site is that and why should anything it says be taken seriously?

That is not the only source. Multiple, multiple sources confirm the same data. I've posted at LEAST 3 other links here that give the same data. There was NO Palestine. It is a made-up place. It did not exist before the creation of Israel. It WAS a mostly uninhabitable territory owned by Arab kings which was taken over by the British and mandated to become half a Jewish state and half an Arab state by the UN. The Arabs would not accept that because of their BIGOTRY, and they tried to attack the Israelis, but the Israelis fought back and won, AND they won the land that you call "palestine."

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Even if that were true, it still doesn't change the fact that it was a territory owned and controlled not by anyone known as a "palestinian," and that it is made up. They were Arabs, and as you link states the "military" and those of foreign nationality are more than likely not permanent residents.

The land was owned by Arab kings and then by the British. The Jewish people did not steal any land from anyone. None of your links suggest that anyone is more entitled to this land than the people who it was given to, or who won over some territory during time of war.

It's owned by the indiginous people living there that have lived there and that now call themselves Palestinians. They didn't just appear out of nowhere.

I'm not claiming entitlement of one group over another that broadly. What I'm saying is that they have lived there and their rights should not be disregarded and you can't just move whole populations out of an area because they are inconvenient to your political or nationalistic ambitions.

Even when territory is taken by war - the people usually go with it and are subject to new rulers. If Israel wants to keep WB and Gaza, then it can keep the people and gives them Israeli citizenship just like any other conquored country or it can ethnically cleanse the region and be comparable to Stalin who forceably moved ethnic minorities to Siberia and moved in ethnic Russians.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You did read that jews owned 10-20% of arable land, 40% was state owned and 40% was owned by the "church" and absentee landlords from other arab countries.
Bedouins had migration routes but did not own land.
The majority of land outside the towns and villages was not owned by "indigenous" arabs but rented, migrant workers, sharecropped or like feudal land worked by locals who had been in service to the owners for generations.
Much of the land was swamp, desert and rocky badlands.
Land owned by private individuals was allowed in the 19th century. Most of the locals did not wanted to be registered as owners to avoid military service. Even under the mandate they avoided registering land when offered to avoid conscription or paying taxes.
Jewish Armed Forces in the British Mandate
The 1834 arab revolt was over locals not being pressed into egyptian or ottoman military service or to pay the taxes.
Land ownership was divided into five different classifications. Private ownership was not heard of for the local outside of the towns and cities till the ottoman opened the area up to jews and wealthy muslims from elsewhere in the empire in the first hald of the 19th century. Till the end of the WWI most of the locals lived and thought only in terms of tribal or feudal terms. They were not free to be land owners.
Just because there was a sizable percentage of the population listed as muslim does not meant they were or could be land owners.
Even today many of the land rights in the region are based on the old ottoman or tribal systems.

But you have people living there now, in the West Bank, who have been there for along time - who some here are stating should categorically kicked off the land (ethnically cleansed), to another country so that region can be inhabited by others who seem to me to have no more right to it then they do.

 

[Coyote]

I'm pretty sure that is what Israel has tried to do, and they do have some palestinians in their midst who do NOT want anything to do with the "palestinian" state. It is not Israel's fault that they are surrounded by intolerant bigots.

That's why the only workable solution is a 2-state solution where both sides must give up some of their ambitions in order to secure peace and security.

Only problem is the Palestinians are refusing to give anything up and just keep demanding more pre conditions

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

 

[docmauser1]

Both sides are stuck in that same rut. Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

What are they?

 

[ChrisL]

I'm pretty sure that is what Israel has tried to do, and they do have some palestinians in their midst who do NOT want anything to do with the "palestinian" state. It is not Israel's fault that they are surrounded by intolerant bigots.

That's why the only workable solution is a 2-state solution where both sides must give up some of their ambitions in order to secure peace and security.

Only problem is the Palestinians are refusing to give anything up and just keep demanding more pre conditions

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

Honestly, what would YOU do in Israel's situation? They HAVE to protect their people, and THOSE people keep trying to kill Israeli citizens. Are you suggesting that Israel should risk it's citizens lives?

EVERY time Israel has given them an inch, they gone right back to the bombings, suicide attacks, kidnapping and torture, and murder, etc.

 

[Coyote]

Multiple people have posted repeated links to historical data indicating that area was by no means inhabited by only "occasional nomads" but had a significant permanent population that had been there for centuries. They myth that it was largely "uninhabited" other than "occassional nomads" is just that, a myth that has been thoroughly debunked.

Look at the source you are using and what it has to say about itself:
What the heck kind of site is that and why should anything it says be taken seriously?

That is not the only source. Multiple, multiple sources confirm the same data. I've posted at LEAST 3 other links here that give the same data. There was NO Palestine. It is a made-up place. It did not exist before the creation of Israel. It WAS a mostly uninhabitable territory owned by Arab kings which was taken over by the British and mandated to become half a Jewish state and half an Arab state by the UN. The Arabs would not accept that because of their BIGOTRY, and they tried to attack the Israelis, but the Israelis fought back and won, AND they won the land that you call "palestine."

Wrong. There has long been a Palestine - it's a very old designation. It may not have been a "nation" but it was an identifiable geographic area.

Again - as supported by links to historical census data from the Ottoman's and Mandate periods it was not mostly uninhabited. It had a definate permanent population.

Why do you keep pretending that the people who inhabited the region didn't exist? That they have no rights to live where they've been living?

The Mandate's 1922 Census: 1922 census of Palestine - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
The reported population was 757,182, including the military and persons of foreign nationality. The division into religious groups was 590,390 Muslims, 83,694 Jews, 73,024 Christians, 7,028 Druze, 808 Sikhs, 265 Bahais, 156 Metawalis, and 163 Samaritans.[2]

Even if that were true, it still doesn't change the fact that it was a territory owned and controlled not by anyone known as a "palestinian," and that it is made up. They were Arabs, and as you link states the "military" and those of foreign nationality are more than likely not permanent residents.

The land was owned by Arab kings and then by the British. The Jewish people did not steal any land from anyone. None of your links suggest that anyone is more entitled to this land than the people who it was given to, or who won over some territory during time of war.

It's owned by the indiginous people living there that have lived there and that now call themselves Palestinians. They didn't just appear out of nowhere.

I'm not claiming entitlement of one group over another that broadly. What I'm saying is that they have lived there and their rights should not be disregarded and you can't just move whole populations out of an area because they are inconvenient to your political or nationalistic ambitions.

Even when territory is taken by war - the people usually go with it and are subject to new rulers. If Israel wants to keep WB and Gaza, then it can keep the people and gives them Israeli citizenship just like any other conquored country or it can ethnically cleanse the region and be comparable to Stalin who forceably moved ethnic minorities to Siberia and moved in ethnic Russians.

Actually they did mostly from the direction of Syria and Egypt on the promise of work.

I am claiming entitlement based on Customary International Law and international treaties that gave 77% of the land to the arab muslims and 23% to the Jews. What happened was the arabs then forcibly moved the Jews out of arab controlled territory against the Mandate rules because they were inconvenient to the arab nationalists ( neo Nazis ) political and nationalist ambitions.

Israel has already relinquished its occupation of gaza and handed control to the muslims living there. Part of the Oslo accords that the Palestinians demanded as a pre condition to peace talks. The west bank was mostly owned by Jews before the 1948 war and they were thrown of their property by the Palestinian muslims . The same Palestinian muslims that tried to throw the Jordanians of their land until they retaliated and shot 50,000 as an object lesson.
So are you now comparing the Palestinians to Stalin as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes.

That doesn't make sense. The only area where Jews held a majority - at least according to this 1898 figure, was Jeruselum.

Edited to add:
This also doesn't make any sense "as they forced 500,000 Jews to leave their land and property and moved arab muslims into their homes." When and where were 500,000 Jews forced from their homes?

 

[ChrisL]

Also, Israel has to be concerned with even the children of Palestine. How could you possibly live side by side with people like this???

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians" during the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[6] The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up was Issa Bdeir, a 16-year-old high school student from the village of Al Doha. He blew himself up in a park in Rishon LeZion, killing a teenage boy and an elderly man.

According to the Israel Defense Forces, 29 suicide attacks were carried out by youth under the age of 18 in 2000–2003. From May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18, and more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (three in 2004).

 

[Coyote]

Both sides are stuck in that same rut. Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

What are they?

One example, from 2012 article: Palestinian and Israeli Hope for Peace at Roadblock by Ray Hanania on Creators.com - A Syndicate Of Talent

It's become almost normal for Palestinians and Israelis who support peace to find themselves at the same old roadblock, going nowhere fast. The only thing moving are the extremists, who continue to pave the way to the mutual destruction of both sides.

Israeli and Palestinian leaders refuse to talk about the steps necessary to make peace. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has imposed several pre-conditions for peace talks to resume. They include the demand for a one-sided end to violence: Palestinians must prevent their extremists from committing acts of violence, but Israel can continue to not only attack Palestinian areas in the Gaza Strip with missiles, but they can also target Palestinians in the West Bank.

But Netanyahu's pre-conditions go way beyond what is acceptable. I call them his "no pre-conditions" pre-conditions. The Israelis insist that Palestinians accept Israeli confiscations of West Bank land around East Jerusalem and accept the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, too. Netanyahu has outlined a Jerusalem that remains undivided, merging East and West Jerusalem without any consideration of Palestinian rights in the cities.

Netanyahu has also imposed another pre-condition. Palestinians have accepted Israel's right to exist and recognize Israel as a state. But since the collapse of the peace process more than a decade ago, Israelis have demanded that Palestinians not only accept Israel as a "Jewish" state but to also say the words.

Forget about the fact that when a state distinguishes between its citizens in a racial or religious way, that's discrimination. There are many words for it. Words that are destructive and words that try to keep the door open for reason and yet fail.

In the face of these pre-conditions, Israelis continue to declare publicly and with no shame that they are willing to enter the peace process with "no pre-conditions" but that it is the Palestinians who refuse to make peace.

It's a bizarre circumstance of "no pre-conditions" consisting of a lot of pre-conditions.

 

[Coyote]

Also, Israel has to be concerned with even the children of Palestine. How could you possibly live side by side with people like this???

Child suicide bombers in the Israeli Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

According to the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, in the al-Aqsa Intifada, children were used as "messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians" during the al-Aqsa Intifada. Fatah, Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad Movement and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine have all been implicated in involving children in this way. The issue was brought to world attention after a widely televised incident in which a mentally handicapped Palestinian teenager, Hussam Abdo, was disarmed at an Israeli checkpoint.[6] The youngest Palestinian suicide bomber who blew himself up was Issa Bdeir, a 16-year-old high school student from the village of Al Doha. He blew himself up in a park in Rishon LeZion, killing a teenage boy and an elderly man.

According to the Israel Defense Forces, 29 suicide attacks were carried out by youth under the age of 18 in 2000–2003. From May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18, and more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (three in 2004).

Ukraine and Russia live side by side.
Georgia and Russia live side by side.
East and West Germany lived side by side.
Ireland and Northern Ireland live side by side.
Bosnia and Serbia live side by side despite the genocide.

No one suggested ethnic cleansing to make it more tolerable.

 

[Coyote]

I'm pretty sure that is what Israel has tried to do, and they do have some palestinians in their midst who do NOT want anything to do with the "palestinian" state. It is not Israel's fault that they are surrounded by intolerant bigots.

That's why the only workable solution is a 2-state solution where both sides must give up some of their ambitions in order to secure peace and security.

Only problem is the Palestinians are refusing to give anything up and just keep demanding more pre conditions

Both sides are stuck in that same rut.

Have you forgotten Israel's many pre-conditions over the years?

Honestly, what would YOU do in Israel's situation? They HAVE to protect their people, and THOSE people keep trying to kill Israeli citizens. Are you suggesting that Israel should risk it's citizens lives?

EVERY time Israel has given them an inch, they gone right back to the bombings, suicide attacks, kidnapping and torture, and murder, etc.

The point is - Israel can't claim to have no "pre-conditions" for peace and accuse the Palestinians of trying to block the peace process with "pre-conditions". It's a blatant lie.