Trump's trade war with China

[pknopp]

Impossible.

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because so much of our production moved there .

That is not a reason to do it, but a reason to stop doing it.

Meaningless reply.

The goal is mutually beneficial trade. Your position is that China is too poor to provide that to US. That this can only be one sided.


Then why did we even do it in the first place, and why should we continue?


(And just to not waste time, if your answer is that someday, down the line, they might have enough of our money to be less one sided in the trade, that is not good enough. ADDITIONAL DECADES of our workers being fucked, so that maybe someday they might be fucked less, is not a good reason.)

It's like slamming your fingers in the car door over and over.

 

[pknopp]

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

So, the problem is not that we give them hundreds of billions of dollars a year, but that we don't give them trillions a year?


Yeah, I can see why you did not open with that argument.

That isn't what was said. What was said is that China can not afford what we are selling.

Actually, my point tied into what his clip of Milton Friedman said. Friedman, made the related point that we send them money and then they can send it back,


except that didn't happen, and is not happening.

That's why economic theories are simply that, theories.

 

[pknopp]

You seem to be dodging the question and living in fantasy land. Opening their markets typically mean they have no tariffs on imports from the USA. Is that what you mean?

No.

I want US products to be imported and consumed in significant qualities to balance out their exports to US.

Impossible.

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because we want all their resources for really cheap.

We are not mostly buying cheap resources, but finished products or parts of products, and the money spend on making them, is put into their economy.

Very little of it. Most of it goes into the pockets of shareholders. We would be far better off if that was not the case.

 

[Brain357]

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

So, the problem is not that we give them hundreds of billions of dollars a year, but that we don't give them trillions a year?


Yeah, I can see why you did not open with that argument.

That isn't what was said. What was said is that China can not afford what we are selling.

Actually, my point tied into what his clip of Milton Friedman said. Friedman, made the related point that we send them money and then they can send it back,


except that didn't happen, and is not happening.

You mean they were till trump ruined it.

China's investment in US drops 83% amid growing mistrust

 

[Brain357]

That would be a great way to hurt our economy. So Germany benefits from all the China's cheap resources, but we don't? Way to give the advantage to everyone else. The Soviet Union tried to do everything alone, it led to an horrible economy.

If Germany wants to send China money, and not have China send them money, they are welcome to.

What economist supports your crazy ideas? I don't think even trump would ever suggest what you are. Please link to anyone credible who thinks we should drop all trade with China.

The economists were shown to be wrong, by actual events.

So nobody supports your crazy ideas?

You going to address my point, that events have demonstrated those economists to be wrong?

I have several times. For all the internal reasons I have given you.

 

[Brain357]

You greatly exaggerate. Wages have been mostly stagnant except for all the min wage increases. Hence why the gains are at the bottom.

The numbers I have seen say otherwise.

But thank you for admitting that until now, they have been stagnate.

They are showing a little life after several min wage increases. Those aren't trump policy.

The numbers I have seen show more rise than the min wages increases call for, and they are not limited to the states with those increases.

So, your claim seems to just be wrong.

The numbers I have seen strongly suggest the states with the most increases had min wages increases.

Really? Could you show me those?

Wage growth for low-wage workers has been strongest in states with minimum wage increases

 

[Correll]

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

Yes, but if manufacturing hadn't moved there, we would import far less also.

Not sure what people expect China to do, start taking boat loads of 50k F150's?

There is a lot of money in China now. They are not all rice farmers.

Wealth per capita in China does not even make the top 35 in the world.

China is under the word average in wealth per person.

It is getting better just like Japan did, but it takes time with that many people.

Yet they are the world's second largest economy, with plenty of money in there, to buy our products, if they want.


Why are you making excuses for them, dishonest excuses at that?

 

[Correll]

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because so much of our production moved there .

That is not a reason to do it, but a reason to stop doing it.

Meaningless reply.

The goal is mutually beneficial trade. Your position is that China is too poor to provide that to US. That this can only be one sided.


Then why did we even do it in the first place, and why should we continue?


(And just to not waste time, if your answer is that someday, down the line, they might have enough of our money to be less one sided in the trade, that is not good enough. ADDITIONAL DECADES of our workers being fucked, so that maybe someday they might be fucked less, is not a good reason.)

Because we benefit by having their cheap labor make thinks for us. Why is this so confusing for you?

Because only SOME of US benefit from having their cheap labor make the products for US. Plenty of US are fucked by that.


Why is this so confusing for you?

 

[pknopp]

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

Yes, but if manufacturing hadn't moved there, we would import far less also.

Not sure what people expect China to do, start taking boat loads of 50k F150's?

There is a lot of money in China now. They are not all rice farmers.

Wealth per capita in China does not even make the top 35 in the world.

China is under the word average in wealth per person.

It is getting better just like Japan did, but it takes time with that many people.

Yet they are the world's second largest economy, with plenty of money in there, to buy our products, if they want.


Why are you making excuses for them, dishonest excuses at that?

1.5 billion people with $6.00 doesn't buy much.

 

[Correll]

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

Yes, but if manufacturing hadn't moved there, we would import far less also.

Not sure what people expect China to do, start taking boat loads of 50k F150's?

There is a lot of money in China now. They are not all rice farmers.

There is more money than before but still not the kind of money that is going to make importing items from here viable. If we want that to happen we have to quit attacking their ability to grow.

THat makes no sense. We have been fostering their growth massively for decades with ever larger trade surpluses.


If mutually beneficial trade is off the table, because they are unable, or unwilling to do it, then we should not even be fucking around with them.


SHUT IT DOWN.

 

[pknopp]

Because so much of our production moved there .

That is not a reason to do it, but a reason to stop doing it.

Meaningless reply.

The goal is mutually beneficial trade. Your position is that China is too poor to provide that to US. That this can only be one sided.


Then why did we even do it in the first place, and why should we continue?


(And just to not waste time, if your answer is that someday, down the line, they might have enough of our money to be less one sided in the trade, that is not good enough. ADDITIONAL DECADES of our workers being fucked, so that maybe someday they might be fucked less, is not a good reason.)

Because we benefit by having their cheap labor make thinks for us. Why is this so confusing for you?

Because only SOME of US benefit from having their cheap labor make the products for US. Plenty of US are fucked by that.


Why is this so confusing for you?

It's not. I don't disagree.

 

[pknopp]

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

Yes, but if manufacturing hadn't moved there, we would import far less also.

Not sure what people expect China to do, start taking boat loads of 50k F150's?

There is a lot of money in China now. They are not all rice farmers.

There is more money than before but still not the kind of money that is going to make importing items from here viable. If we want that to happen we have to quit attacking their ability to grow.

THat makes no sense. We have been fostering their growth massively for decades with ever larger trade surpluses.

The bulk of that goes to US corporations but you know that.

If mutually beneficial trade is off the table, because they are unable, or unwilling to do it, then we should not even be fucking around with them.


SHUT IT DOWN.

Tell that to the corporations, not me.

 

[Correll]

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

So, the problem is not that we give them hundreds of billions of dollars a year, but that we don't give them trillions a year?


Yeah, I can see why you did not open with that argument.

That isn't what was said. What was said is that China can not afford what we are selling.

Actually, my point tied into what his clip of Milton Friedman said. Friedman, made the related point that we send them money and then they can send it back,


except that didn't happen, and is not happening.

That's why economic theories are simply that, theories.

Which is fine. But once they don't actually work, those pushing the theory have to address that.

 

[Correll]

No.

I want US products to be imported and consumed in significant qualities to balance out their exports to US.

Impossible.

Then why are we engaging in large scale trade, if anything resembling even a FUCKING TIE, is not even an option?

Because we want all their resources for really cheap.

We are not mostly buying cheap resources, but finished products or parts of products, and the money spend on making them, is put into their economy.

Very little of it. Most of it goes into the pockets of shareholders. We would be far better off if that was not the case.

I seriously doubt that that is true.

 

[Correll]

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

So, the problem is not that we give them hundreds of billions of dollars a year, but that we don't give them trillions a year?


Yeah, I can see why you did not open with that argument.

That isn't what was said. What was said is that China can not afford what we are selling.

Actually, my point tied into what his clip of Milton Friedman said. Friedman, made the related point that we send them money and then they can send it back,


except that didn't happen, and is not happening.

You mean they were till trump ruined it.

China's investment in US drops 83% amid growing mistrust

Not sure why you are pretending that Friedman was not talking about buying our products.

 

[pknopp]

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

So, the problem is not that we give them hundreds of billions of dollars a year, but that we don't give them trillions a year?


Yeah, I can see why you did not open with that argument.

That isn't what was said. What was said is that China can not afford what we are selling.

Actually, my point tied into what his clip of Milton Friedman said. Friedman, made the related point that we send them money and then they can send it back,


except that didn't happen, and is not happening.

That's why economic theories are simply that, theories.

Which is fine. But once they don't actually work, those pushing the theory have to address that.

They don't. Look at how many still claim we are a free market capitalist economy.

 

[Brain357]

Because so much of our production moved there .

It is impossible because the people of China do not yet have sufficient wealth to much of what is made here. Our best way to narrow the deficit was our Ag, and now Trump has fucked that up.

Yes, but if manufacturing hadn't moved there, we would import far less also.

Not sure what people expect China to do, start taking boat loads of 50k F150's?

There is a lot of money in China now. They are not all rice farmers.

Wealth per capita in China does not even make the top 35 in the world.

China is under the word average in wealth per person.

It is getting better just like Japan did, but it takes time with that many people.

Yet they are the world's second largest economy, with plenty of money in there, to buy our products, if they want.


Why are you making excuses for them, dishonest excuses at that?

They did buy lots of food, before trump...

 

[Correll]

If Germany wants to send China money, and not have China send them money, they are welcome to.

What economist supports your crazy ideas? I don't think even trump would ever suggest what you are. Please link to anyone credible who thinks we should drop all trade with China.

The economists were shown to be wrong, by actual events.

So nobody supports your crazy ideas?

You going to address my point, that events have demonstrated those economists to be wrong?

I have several times. For all the internal reasons I have given you.

Dude. YOu call yourself "brain", yet are unable to follow a thread of discussion?

We were discussing why the Chinese have not used those "little pieces of paper" to buy our products as Milton said they would.


Your "internal reasons" were aimed at why wages have stagnated.


You are jumping around a lot, like someone trying to hide the weaknesses of his position.


JUst saying.

 

[Correll]

The numbers I have seen say otherwise.

But thank you for admitting that until now, they have been stagnate.

They are showing a little life after several min wage increases. Those aren't trump policy.

The numbers I have seen show more rise than the min wages increases call for, and they are not limited to the states with those increases.

So, your claim seems to just be wrong.

The numbers I have seen strongly suggest the states with the most increases had min wages increases.

Really? Could you show me those?

Wage growth for low-wage workers has been strongest in states with minimum wage increases

Over 8% in states without any min wage increases and 13% in those with? That indicates that the increase is primarily driven by market forces, with less than a third of the increase being related to increases in the min wage.



"Wage growth at the 10th percentile in states with at least one minimum wage increase from 2013 to 2018 was more than 50 percent faster than in states without any minimum wage increases (13.0 percent vs. 8.4 percent). "

 

[charwin95]

You seem to be the one in denial. We have tons of wealth and very low unemployment. The issue is clearly internal and I've given you many reason why our wages are lower than they should be. You seem to just want to deny the facts and blame China for no reason. AGAIN, we have lots of wealth and low unemployment. It isn't Chinas fault our companies aren't paying.

these are the same people that blame China for "stealing" our jobs when American companies freely choose to move their operations there.

I am trying VERY VERY hard to understand that myself.

About 85% of my consumables are made in China since the mid 90s.
Trump and Ivanka products are made in China.

Is it China’s fault that we went to China for better profits? I don’t think so.

But some reason people don’t understand that especially the Trump supporters.

You are making up shit in your mind that has nothing to do with Trump supporters.

Dude there’s no reason for me making bullshit.
All of these has something to do with that bastard. Nothing more.

WRONG!!! Trump doesn't blame the Chinese and neither do I. Taking advantage of suckers is just what you do. It suited those who weren't concerned about US workers and the Chinese were desperate for US market share. As the tariffs apply the Chinese will accept slimmer margins; gotta stop the US doing import replacement. Trump supporters know this. You do too but refuse to admit it.

Greg

You are lying. Trump blamed China for several reasons and several times. You are trying to make an excuses.

I am far more concerned about American jobs and businesses than you. You don’t even understand the implications of trade wars.

You are just a Trumpits supporter. Your brain and your head is far up in Trumpits ass. How could you possibly know anything?

Maybe explain why the rest of American companies and all business categories are blasting Trumpits stupid trade wars.
Starts with that.


Trump’s trade war has killed 300,000 jobs

Trump’s trade war has killed 300,000 jobs
Rick Newman
Rick Newman
Yahoo FinanceSeptember 10, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC
President Trump says he is “winning big time, against China.” But his trade war is causing measurable damage to the U.S. economy, with the pain likely to worsen.

Forecasting firm Moody’s Analytics estimates that Trump’s trade war with China has already reduced U.S. employment by 300,000 jobs, compared with likely employment levels absent the trade war. That’s a combination of jobs eliminated by firms struggling with tariffs and other elements of the trade war, and jobs that would have been created but haven’t because of reduced economic activity.