Two Questions for Atheists

[Boss]

Man... I love how I come back to my thread to find 8 pages of Atheists-- oops-- Agnostics, talking about Hitler, Trump, ancient Christianity, Rome, God killing children... anything BUT the thread OP! It's like you think you're in the Coffee Shop thread or something. Hey maybe we can open a discussion on Global Warming and Gun Control too? WHY NOT? It's not like this is a message board where you can actually create individual threads to discuss specific topics.. oh wait? Never mind!

So let's get back to the thread OP, shall we?

Prager points out that the first question is important because it tells him whether the person has seriously considered the ramifications and consequences of their Atheism. If they hope they are right, they haven't seriously thought about what that means.

I respect atheists who answer that they hope they are wrong. It tells me that they understand the terrible consequences of atheism: that all existence is random; that there is no ultimate meaning to life; that there is no objective morality — right and wrong are subjective personal or societal constructs; that when we die, there is nothing but eternal oblivion, meaning, among other things, that one is never reconnected with any loved ones; and there is no ultimate justice in the universe — murderers, torturers and their victims have identical fates: nothing.

Anyone who would want all those things has either not considered the consequences of atheism or has what seems like an emotionally detached outlook on life. A person who doesn’t want there to be ultimate meaning to existence, or good and evil to have an objective reality, or to be reunited with loved ones, or the bad punished and the good rewarded has a rather cold soul.

That’s why I suspect atheists who think that way have not fully thought through their atheism. This is especially so for those who allege that their atheism is primarily because of their conclusion that there is too much unjust human suffering for there to be a God. If that is what has led you to your atheism, how could you possibly not hope there is a God? Precisely because you are so disturbed by the amount of suffering in the world, wouldn’t you want a just God to exist?​

As for the second question, Prager finds it interesting that nonbelievers often criticize believers for not challenging themselves intellectually. Yet, he has never know a believer who hasn't doubted God's existence at some point. When he asked a symposium of Atheists if they ever doubted their Atheism, not a single hand went up.

When experiencing, seeing or reading about terrible human suffering, all of us who believe in God have on occasion doubted our faith. So, I asked the atheists, how is it that when you see a baby born or a spectacular sunset, or hear a Mozart symphony, or read about the infinite complexity of the human brain — none of these has ever prompted you to wonder whether there really might be a God?​

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[Boss]

While your question may be about what others believe, he makes a valid point. Which God? If you plan to constrain the discussion to monotheism, then you should say so.

If you don't believe in ANY God, what difference does it make?

 

[Grumblenuts]

I presume to speak for Bernie now and then just to be entertaining. But actually, no one can't really fill in for someone who's not present. Quote what Prager says that you endorse or just state what you think. It's you who needs to communicate your own thoughts. We're not talking with any Prager here.

 

[Boss]

I presume to speak for Bernie now and then just to be entertaining. But actually, no one can't really fill in for someone who's not present. Quote what Prager says that you endorse or just state what you think. It's you who needs to communicate your own thoughts. We're not talking with any Prager here.

I don't know what you mean. I'm not speaking for Prager, I've quoted Prager. Of course I agree with him or I wouldn't have posted this. But my personal observations go a little deeper. As I discovered here when I asked Prager's first question-- suddenly, all the Atheists in the room turned to Agnostics! No one wanted to honestly answer the question. We've got 8 pages of "agnosti-atheians" standing on their ear to avoid the OP topic and divert the thread. Prager didn't prepare me for that.

 

[forkup]

-To your first question I can only answer with another question. Wrong about what? It's ill defined. Because it demands of me that I know which God you believe in.

My question is not about what I believe. It's about what YOU believe and whether you hope you're wrong or right. It doesn't demand anything, it asks a question, as denoted by the question mark at the end.

-As I said there are thousands of different man/ men and woman in the sky myths, all are different, most are dramatically different. This would all have bearing on my answer since you are basically asking if I find any of them more attractive then my belief that there is no God. So if you ask do I want to be wrong? How can I answer if I don't know what the alternative is?

 

[cnm]

Care to give your definition of atheist? Just so I know whether the questions are directed at me.

 

[forkup]

Man... I love how I come back to my thread to find 8 pages of Atheists-- oops-- Agnostics, talking about Hitler, Trump, ancient Christianity, Rome, God killing children... anything BUT the thread OP! It's like you think you're in the Coffee Shop thread or something. Hey maybe we can open a discussion on Global Warming and Gun Control too? WHY NOT? It's not like this is a message board where you can actually create individual threads to discuss specific topics.. oh wait? Never mind!

So let's get back to the thread OP, shall we?

Prager points out that the first question is important because it tells him whether the person has seriously considered the ramifications and consequences of their Atheism. If they hope they are right, they haven't seriously thought about what that means.

I respect atheists who answer that they hope they are wrong. It tells me that they understand the terrible consequences of atheism: that all existence is random; that there is no ultimate meaning to life; that there is no objective morality — right and wrong are subjective personal or societal constructs; that when we die, there is nothing but eternal oblivion, meaning, among other things, that one is never reconnected with any loved ones; and there is no ultimate justice in the universe — murderers, torturers and their victims have identical fates: nothing.

Anyone who would want all those things has either not considered the consequences of atheism or has what seems like an emotionally detached outlook on life. A person who doesn’t want there to be ultimate meaning to existence, or good and evil to have an objective reality, or to be reunited with loved ones, or the bad punished and the good rewarded has a rather cold soul.

That’s why I suspect atheists who think that way have not fully thought through their atheism. This is especially so for those who allege that their atheism is primarily because of their conclusion that there is too much unjust human suffering for there to be a God. If that is what has led you to your atheism, how could you possibly not hope there is a God? Precisely because you are so disturbed by the amount of suffering in the world, wouldn’t you want a just God to exist?​

As for the second question, Prager finds it interesting that nonbelievers often criticize believers for not challenging themselves intellectually. Yet, he has never know a believer who hasn't doubted God's existence at some point. When he asked a symposium of Atheists if they ever doubted their Atheism, not a single hand went up.

When experiencing, seeing or reading about terrible human suffering, all of us who believe in God have on occasion doubted our faith. So, I asked the atheists, how is it that when you see a baby born or a spectacular sunset, or hear a Mozart symphony, or read about the infinite complexity of the human brain — none of these has ever prompted you to wonder whether there really might be a God?​

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-First of, The first reply I gave in this OP was a direct answer to your premise. Second, I'm an actual atheist not an agnostic. Thirdly looking at your reasoning for your second question, I see why you didn't acknowledge my answer. Since I freely admit to doubt myself, since I don't consider a man in the sky by default impossible, thereby invalidating Pragers little speech. Which in itself is pretty weird.
-Wondering why an almighty God allows suffering is a perfectly valid reason to doubt your beliefs.
-Wondering why music can be beautiful, a human brain is complex, a baby is born and the sun sets is NOT a reason to believe in God. All these things can be explained within the framework of science.
-Putting God in things you can explain is actually a good reason to stop believing in God because if you give something an explanation that is then proven completely wrong as has happened in religion times beyond mention, doubt creeps in.
"Fool me once, shame on you"," Fool me a thousand times, Boy am I an idiot."

 

[Boss]

-As I said there are thousands of different man/ men and woman in the sky myths, all are different, most are dramatically different. This would all have bearing on my answer since you are basically asking if I find any of them more attractive then my belief that there is no God. So if you ask do I want to be wrong? How can I answer if I don't know what the alternative is?

I have not asked you which God you find more attractive.Nor have I asked if you want to be wrong. I've also not asked you for any alternative. Apparently, you're having trouble comprehending a very simple and straightforward question. I merely asked if you hope you are right or hope you are wrong. I don't understand why that's so difficult to understand or why you are struggling so hard to avoid answering. You obviously have a belief of some kind... do you hope your belief is right? Or do you hope you're wrong?

 

[Two Thumbs]

Do you hope that you are wrong or do you hope that you are right? I hope I'm right, b/c according to the bible, if I led a life equal to Mother Teresa's, I'm still going to hell b/c I'm not baptized.



Do you ever have doubts about your Atheism? No, the absurdity that a highly edited book is the word of god, the Johnny come lately god....

 

[Boss]

Care to give your definition of atheist? Just so I know whether the questions are directed at me.

a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun

1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Care to give your definition of atheist? Just so I know whether the questions are directed at me.

 

[Boss]

-Wondering why music can be beautiful, a human brain is complex, a baby is born and the sun sets is NOT a reason to believe in God. All these things can be explained within the framework of science.

He didn't claim it was a reason to believe in God. He asks if it made you wonder if God might exist? So, I guess these things DON'T make you wonder?

His point is to illustrate how nonbelievers fail to challenge themselves or even to have an open mind. Yet they often berate believers for the very same thing.

 

[thetor]

Care to give your definition of atheist? Just so I know whether the questions are directed at me.

a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun

1. a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

The only God I believe in, is Myself.......all other Gods are Cruel Bastards and some who claim they believe in their particular GOD,are too, Cruel Bastards

 

[Boss]

-First of, The first reply I gave in this OP was a direct answer to your premise.

No. Your first reply in this thread was to answer the question with a question. That's called constructing a straw man. It's a technique of avoidance in answering the question. Since then, I have repeatedly explained that I am not asking you about which God(s) you find more attractive or what alternatives you have. It's just a very simple question which you're obviously not inclined to answer, for whatever reason.

 

[cnm]

lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

That's certainly me.

a) Don't care, makes no difference, meaningless question.

b) When I question my atheism I have no doubt I lack belief in the existence of gods.

 

[cnm]

You should have taken your own advice before devaluing the concept of defining the terms of a discussion. Better luck next time.

 

[Two Thumbs]

You should have taken your own advice before devaluing the concept of defining the terms of a discussion. Better luck next time.

If you're 12, you know what an atheist is and don't need it explained.

 

[cnm]

The only God I believe in, is Myself.......all other Gods are Cruel Bastards and some who claim they believe in their particular GOD,are too, Cruel Bastards

Perhaps if you thought of those other entities as shaped in your image you might be more sanguine about their possible existence...

 

[Boss]

lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

That's certainly me.

a) Don't care, makes no difference, meaningless question.

b) When I question my atheism I have no doubt I lack belief in the existence of gods.

You've answered neither question.

 

[cnm]

You've answered neither question.

I've answered both. That the answers did not come in the form that was designed by the questioner is his fault. He could have been a little more subtle, your disingenuous protestations of them not being trick questions notwithstanding.

Again, maybe they'll get through this time:

a) Neither
b) I have no doubt I lack belief in the existence of gods.