Zone1 Unbeliever: You Are Responsible

[XponentialChaos]

She doesn't agree with the teachings of her own church. But that's all I'll say.

Meriweather is this true? Do you disagree with the teachings of your own church? I‘ve never been told that a non-believer can go to Heaven without accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.

You are responsible to know these things on your own. .

The simple fact is, if you deny Jesus is the ONLY Way, you are denying Jesus. That's on you -- not me. Not Meriweather. You.

I never said otherwise.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I never said otherwise

Then you should worry about yourself and quit trying to stir up trouble.

 

[XponentialChaos]

Then you should worry about yourself and quit trying to stir up trouble.

Worry about myself over what exactly? Something I don't believe in?

How am I stirring trouble? I'm just discussing the topic. It's a message board, you know.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, it doesn’t make sense to me either. Contradicting each other isn’t exactly clarifying this.

It is a matter of research and in understanding the culture and the language the original author. Also, John's was the final Gospel written. It is in his Gospel are the two verses people point. There is nothing comparable to it in the other three Gospels. This had me taking a closer look at John, and what Jews in those days taught about hell. Nothing...so when did hell present itself, and by whom?

Is it worth thinking about?

 

[XponentialChaos]

It is a matter of research and in understanding the culture and the language the original author.

You're still contradicting each other. Both of you say you're right and the other is wrong.

When you people can't even come to an agreement on what your own holy book tells you, it doesn't exactly clarify anything to someone on the outside, not that I'm interested in joining anyway.

 

[Meriweather]

That’s what Carlin appears to be saying.

“You should ask Jesus. You can you know”

Do you disagree on that as well? Maybe I misunderstood.

I don't know how Carlin communicates with God.

I tend towards contemplation, but first putting my request/goal into words. Then I do my best to clear/quiet my mind so that God has silence in which to work. (A verse in a song...I will come to you in the silence...)

In Kings, there is a story about how God came to Elijah--not in storms, earthquakes, or fire, but within the murmur of a tiny whisper. These tiny, inaudible murmurs come to us while living our every day life. Possibilities and ideas present themselves. Books, commentaries, scholarly studies, people come my way in various places because I am actively seeking. One thing/study leads to another. One person introduces me to someone else.

About fourteen years ago now, I was praying constantly for how I could make a specific improvement in my life. To my puzzlement nothing seemed to be happening. Four years passed this way, and suddenly the final piece clicked into place and I had my answer. Only then could I look back and see all these chances and coincidences that had presented themselves to me over four years--how one step had built upon another. It recalled Moses' story how God can best be seen in hindsight.

 

[Meriweather]

She doesn't agree with the teachings of her own church. But that's all I'll say.

Oh, yes I do. Read the Catechism.

 

[Meriweather]

@Meriweather is this true? Do you disagree with the teachings of your own church? I‘ve never been told that a non-believer can go to Heaven without accepting Jesus Christ as their lord and savior.

Jesus gave the church a commission, and that is to teach what he taught. Even when Protestants broke away from the Church to form other denominations, the Catholic/Orthodox churches stayed as close as possible to traditional Apostolic teachings. Many non-Catholic Christians dismiss tradition.

While the Catholic/Orthodox Church does acknowledge the Covenants God has with others, it sees its job to teach as Christ taught. The Catholic/Orthodox do not teach Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Muslim, or any other Christian denomination. The Church was told to teach as Christ taught. Still, the Church has humility. Simply because the Church is not able to bring all persons to Jesus in this way, it does not lessen the responsibility for the Church to follow Christ's ways and trust all who are not of Christ are in the hands of a loving, merciful God.

I will note that those who teach, "Believe in Christ or go to hell" more than likely believe they are following Christ's commission more closely. It is probably true that my trust that God, in His love and mercy, will bring in all others who wish to be with him, may be over-emphasized. Still, I point to the Parable of the Vineyard.

 

[Meriweather]

You're still contradicting each other. Both of you say you're right and the other is wrong.

No. I am not saying anyone is "wrong". What we have are different perspectives of the same verses. Certainly, one of us may be mistaken, but "wrong" is doing something one knows to be bad. I know exactly why Carlin holds another perspective. I know why I hold mine.

 

[XponentialChaos]

Jesus gave the church a commission, and that is to teach what he taught. Even when Protestants broke away from the Church to form other denominations, the Catholic/Orthodox churches stayed as close as possible to traditional Apostolic teachings. Many non-Catholic Christians dismiss tradition.

While the Catholic/Orthodox Church does acknowledge the Covenants God has with others, it sees its job to teach as Christ taught. The Catholic/Orthodox do not teach Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Muslim, or any other Christian denomination. The Church was told to teach as Christ taught. Still, the Church has humility. Simply because the Church is not able to bring all persons to Jesus in this way, it does not lessen the responsibility for the Church to follow Christ's ways and trust all who are not of Christ are in the hands of a loving, merciful God.

I will note that those who teach, "Believe in Christ or go to hell" more than likely believe they are following Christ's commission more closely. It is probably true that my trust that God, in His love and mercy, will bring in all others who wish to be with him, may be over-emphasized. Still, I point to the Parable of the Vineyard.

Gotcha. So you disagree with what Carlin says: "She doesn't agree with the teachings of her own church."

I'll just go with what the majority of Christians have told me.

 

[Meriweather]

When you people can't even come to an agreement on what your own holy book tells you, it doesn't exactly clarify anything to someone on the outside, not that I'm interested in joining anyway.

Ah. You prefer Oreo cookies, where each cookie is a precise stamp of the others! You think we should march in lockstep, or not walk at all?

We are unique people, each who can have a unique relationship with God. If you have children of your own, it is easy to understand that even with people you love best, different relationship develop.

 

[XponentialChaos]

No. I am not saying anyone is "wrong". What we have are different perspectives of the same verses. Certainly, one of us may be mistaken, but "wrong" is doing something one knows to be bad. I know exactly why Carlin holds another perspective. I know why I hold mine.

Wrong as in incorrect. Not wrong as in morally wrong.

Whatever you want to call it, you're contradicting each other. According to you, I can go to Heaven without accepting Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. According to Carlin, I can't go to Heaven without accepting Jesus Christ as my lord and savior.

I'll just go with the majority opinion on this matter.

 

[Meriweather]

I'll just go with what the majority of Christians have told me.

And this is where you and I differ. I am not a lemming. I find my own way, do my own exploring. I recommend exploring, not settling!

 

[XponentialChaos]

Ah. You prefer Oreo cookies, where each cookie is a precise stamp of the others! You think we should march in lockstep, or not walk at all?

Of course not. I'm simply saying that it doesn't clarify anything when you contradict each other over, what I would consider, a very simple question.

You can't possibly expect me to take your version of Christianity seriously when even your fellow Christians don't agree with what you're saying.

 

[XponentialChaos]

And this is where you and I differ. I am not a lemming. I find my own way, do my own exploring. I recommend exploring, not settling!

I think it's clear that you're not a lemming when you're going against what the majority of what your fellow Christians believe.

I'm simply saying that, based on my numerous interactions with Christians, they're in the majority on this particular topic - not you. Take that for what it's worth.

 

[Meriweather]

You can't possibly expect me to take your version of Christianity seriously when even your fellow Christians don't agree with what you're saying.

The person to take seriously in all of this is what Jesus said, in context. It may be a silly notion on my part, but it appears you are hoping Jesus really said you are going to hell.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm simply saying that, based on my numerous interactions with Christians, they're in the majority on this particular topic - not you. Take that for what it's worth.

It's not worth much, but then my interactions have been among the majority of Christians--which are Catholic or Orthodox. We are not big on sending people to hell. In my entire life it has only been twice that hell has ever been mentioned in homilies. Catholics have this odd idea that Christ's life, death, and resurrection redeemed the world--that his "Good News" is not that the majority of people are going to hell.

 

[XponentialChaos]

The person to take seriously in all of this is what Jesus said, in context.

According to you. Not according to the vast majority of Christians.

It may be a silly notion on my part, but it appears you are hoping Jesus really said you are going to hell.

It is kind of silly. Why would I hope for something bad upon myself in a religion that I don't believe in? That doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[XponentialChaos]

It's not worth much, but then my interactions have been among the majority of Christians--which are Catholic or Orthodox. We are not big on sending people to hell.

That doesn't resemble my experience at all. If I had $1 for every time a Christian told me I was going to Hell.

 

[Meriweather]

It is kind of silly. Why would I hope for something bad upon myself in a religion that I don't believe in?

Do you follow a religion?