Zone1 Unbeliever: You Are Responsible

[Red Front]

I did not judge them...Christ did and will.

he told you in scripture exactly who the unbelievers are.... And with other scripture to back it up, it appears to be those who pretend to be Christ followers in the church, who do NOT follow Christ's teachings....

 

[Meriweather]

That entails you becoming a theistic communist.

Jesus did not teach a political or economic system.

 

[SweetSue92]

I did not judge them...Christ did and will.

he told you in scripture exactly who the unbelievers are.... And with other scripture to back it up, it appears to be those who pretend to be Christ followers in the church, who do NOT follow Christ's teachings....

That's what makes a Christian, "Following Christ's teachings"? How much? Perfectly?

Never lie, even that little white lie to spare you friend's feeling?

Never hate, even evil things which God Himself say should be hated?

What is your scale for salvation then, since you're rewriting the Gospel?

 

[Red Front]

Jesus did not teach a political or economic system.

He taught his disciples the principles that underlie God's Kingdom both in heaven and here on Earth, which must inform the politics and economics of those who claim to embody his presence. Unity in love and selfless service. Sacrificial love = theistic, divine communism. Not capitalizing on your brethren's needs but satisfying them in selfless love. That's the way of Jesus.

HOW WILL THE WORLD KNOW, WHO ARE THE TRUE DISCIPLES OF JESUS?​

Joh_13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye love one another.

Joh 15:11-14 "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. (12) This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. (13) Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (14) Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you."

Are we really the friends, the comrades of Jesus? Really? How will the world know that Jesus has come and has established his Kingdom on Earth?

Joh 17:19-23 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. (20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (21) That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: (23) I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Joh_13:34 "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

How did Jesus Love?

To Love our brothers and sisters as he loved us.
​

That's Jesus' commandment. Not a suggestion, or mere advice, but a commandment. Love your brothers and sisters in Christ, to the point of laying it all down at their feet. Your life is their's and their lives are yours.

Mar 10:28-31 "Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. (29) And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, (30) But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (31) But many that are first shall be last; and the last first."

ONE HEART - ONE SOUL / GREAT POWER - GREAT GRACE​

John 17 (22) And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

ONE HEART - ONE SOUL / GREAT POWER - GREAT GRACE​

Act 4:32-37 "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. (33) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. (34) Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, (35) And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need. (36) And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, (37) Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet."

ONE HEART - ONE SOUL / GREAT POWER - GREAT GRACE
.....Neither was there any among them that lacked....​

Act 2:44-45 "And all that believed were together, and had all things common; (45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need."

The first generation of disciples followed Jesus under the tutelage of His 12 apostles, not Paul. They were Christ-centered, theistic communists, who kept all of the commandments of their Lord:

Joh 15:10 " If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. "

Joh_14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Joh_14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Joh_10:17 "Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

I lay down my life​

The test of a genuine disciple is his or her willingness to die for Christ. If you're not willing to lay down your possessions at the feet of your brothers and sisters (the earthly body of Jesus), then you're not willing to give up your life, hence you're not worthy to be called a disciple of The King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Mat 7:21-23 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work ANOMOIS/LAWLESSNESS."

Self-deluded, willfully ignorant, miscreant "disciples" = Lawless.
THEY LOVE THIS WORLD, WITH ALL OF ITS LUSTS AND TRINKETS. ​

Luk_14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat_16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Luk_9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luk_21:36 "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

Joh_14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Joh_15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh_12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Rev 3:20-22 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev_14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

They're not capitalizing on anyone's needs, they just love and serve each other, like a family. That's YHWH's Kingdom. The body of Jesus, the bride of Christ, is communist. If you don't like the word communist, we can use another word or term, for example. The Hebrew word, Qahal/Assembly, or another Hebrew word, Eda/Hive. Netzarim/Guardians. The body of Messiah, is ONE HEART, ONE SOUL, ONE LIFE, ONE BODY.

​

Mar 10:30-31 But he shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (31) But many that are first shall be last; and the last first."

Luk 12:22-34 And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on. (23) The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment. (24) Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? (25) And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit? (26) If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest? (27) Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. (28) If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith? (29) And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind. (30) For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things. (31) But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. (32) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (33) Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. (34) For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

The above is true, Biblical Christianity, based on what Jesus and His 12 apostles taught. What most "Christians" believe today, is a false religion, that has nothing to do with Jesus and his 12 apostles.

 

[Meriweather]

He taught his disciples the principles that underlie God's Kingdom both in heaven and here on Earth, which must inform the politics and economics of those who claim to embody his presence.

Every single political/economic system has negatives and positives. They all have the commonality of--one way or another--to milk the populace ti benefit those greedy for wealth and power. Each and everyone virtuously assures the populace this system is really for their benefit. It's important to keep the populace calm while they are all being fleeced one way or another.

You figured out one way to keep the people calm while they are being fleeced is by assuring them it is being done in the name of God and at God's direction.

No, I don't hate any political/economic system any more that I hate that the sun rises in the East instead of the north. I simply note how each system fleeces the population and live with it much the same as I live with nature's seasons.

What I love about Jesus' teachings is that they work within every season, within every political/economic system. The individual works to love and serve others at his/her own door without asking or waiting for a political/economic system to do this in their stead.

 

[Red Front]

Every single political/economic system has negatives and positives. They all have the commonality of--one way or another--to milk the populace ti benefit those greedy for wealth and power. Each and everyone virtuously assures the populace this system is really for their benefit. It's important to keep the populace calm while they are all being fleeced one way or another.

You figured out one way to keep the people calm while they are being fleeced is by assuring them it is being done in the name of God and at God's direction.

No, I don't hate any political/economic system any more that I hate that the sun rises in the East instead of the north. I simply note how each system fleeces the population and live with it much the same as I live with nature's seasons.

What I love about Jesus' teachings is that they work within every season, within every political/economic system. The individual works to love and serve others at his/her own door without asking or waiting for a political/economic system to do this in their stead.

Every single political/economic system has negatives and positives. They all have the commonality of--one way or another--to milk the populace ti benefit those greedy for wealth and power.

You ignored everything I said in my last post about God's kingdom and what Jesus expects from his disciples. How do your accusations apply to anything I said in my last post?

Each and everyone virtuously assures the populace this system is really for their benefit. It's important to keep the populace calm while they are all being fleeced one way or another.

What I wrote had nothing to do with the secular world or "the populace". It's rather a Biblical exposition about who Jesus considers a genuine disciple. It described how the earthly body of Jesus must live, according to Jesus himself. Dying to this world and becoming part of a community of believers who love each other as Jesus loves them and due to that love hold all things in common.

You figured out one way to keep the people calm while they are being fleeced is by assuring them it is being done in the name of God and at God's direction.

You're just clutching your pearls because you don't like what the Bible says about Christ's high standard for discipleship, requiring you to hold all things in common with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

No, I don't hate any political/economic system any more that I hate that the sun rises in the East instead of the north. I simply note how each system fleeces the population and live with it much the same as I live with nature's seasons.

What I love about Jesus' teachings is that they work within every season, within every political/economic system. The individual works to love and serve others at his/her own door without asking or waiting for a political/economic system to do this in their stead.

You're resorting to incoherent, irrelevant gibberish in your attempt to excuse yourself from what Jesus and his 12 apostles taught about discipleship. If you are truly a disciple of Jesus, you will keep his commandments and lay all of your possessions at the feet of your fellow disciples (brothers and sisters in Jesus). If you refuse to do that, you're not a disciple of Christ, it's that simple. You can gibber-gabber all of the nonsense you want about politics and economics, but if you refuse to carry your cross and die to this world, laying everything down at the feet of your brothers and sisters in Christ, you expose yourself as a counterfeit "disciple" of Jesus. A fake.

Stop playing games with the God of the Bible, and obey Christ's commandments, if you're truly a disciple of Jesus. If you do that, even atheists will respect you, due to your sincere commitment to Christ's noble life and teaching. Fail to obey Jesus and demons will laugh at you, rather than tremble as they do when a genuine disciple is in their midst, embodying the power and glory of Jesus Christ.

 

[Meriweather]

You ignored everything I said in my last post about God's kingdom and what Jesus expects from his disciples. How do your accusations apply to anything I said in my last post?

I tend not to read screeds and proof texts. The heart of the matter is that Jesus' teachings were meant for individuals interacting with individuals. This works like yeast and the community grows. Jesus did not advocate setting up a nation, but for all individuals to enter into the Kingdom already set up by God.

 

[Red Front]

I tend not to read screeds and proof texts. The heart of the matter is that Jesus' teachings were meant for individuals interacting with individuals. This works like yeast and the community grows. Jesus did not advocate setting up a nation, but for all individuals to enter into the Kingdom already set up by God.

Others will read what I wrote and see your flippant dismissal of what was written as disingenuous and cynical. Jesus and his 12 apostles were crystal clear, in defining their high standard for discipleship, which entails holding all things in common with your fellow disciples. Laying down your life as Jesus did, requires dying to this world and living 100% for Jesus, among other disciples. Meriweather doesn't care what Christ's standard for discipleship is because he doesn't really believe in Jesus, for him all of this is just a little game.

Religion for people like Meriweather, is just a crutch, or as Marx said, "the opium of the people". Meriweather gets his/her fix on his/her own terms.

 

[Meriweather]

Meriweather doesn't care what Christ's standard for discipleship is because he doesn't really believe in Jesus, for him all of this is just a little game.

Religion for people like Meriweather, is just a crutch, or as Marx said, "the opium of the people". Meriweather gets his/her fix on his/her own terms.

Why be upset that I see a different perspective? In my perspective Christ's standards are much higher us and much more focused on people as individuals each with living unique lives. There is no lassoing society and frog-marching them to follow a specific political or economic system. God cares about us as individuals.

 

[Red Front]

Why be upset that I see a different perspective? In my perspective Christ's standards are much higher us and much more focused on people as individuals each with living unique lives. There is no lassoing society and frog-marching them to follow a specific political or economic system. God cares about us as individuals.

 

[Red Front]

Why be upset that I see a different perspective? In my perspective Christ's standards are much higher us and much more focused on people as individuals each with living unique lives. There is no lassoing society and frog-marching them to follow a specific political or economic system. God cares about us as individuals.

In your "perspective", it doesn't matter what the bible actually says, hence as you mentioned in your post before this one, you don't read proof-texts when you're engaged in an online debate. You're a typical "Christian"/religionist who uses religion as an anti-depressant/opiate.

" Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people [bold added].

The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo." (Elements of the Philosophy of Right by Karl Marx)

Religion is the result of the present, mortal human condition. A way to cope with all of the suffering and insecurities that come with being alive in a universe that is trying to kill us.

True Christianity is an ingenious religion. ​

The Christianity of Jesus and his 12 apostles, is a way of life that requires being part of a humane, empathetic, civilized community of people cooperating together, to survive and thrive in an indifferent, cruel world.

​

As a Marxist Leninist, and agnostic atheist communist, I sincerely love Jesus and his 12 apostles. They're my comrades. I also love and respect true Christians. The genuine disciples of Jesus.

 

[Red Front]

The fake, confused "Christian" who started this thread, claims that agnostic atheists or secular people are "responsible" for not believing in their nonsensical religious dogmas, and if that is the case, then these fake self-serving "Christians" are even more responsible for maligning and misrepresenting Jesus and turning people away from him by their selfishness and love for mammon.

 

[SweetSue92]

You did not (because you cannot) provide a verse where Jesus says any such thing.

I believe I understand the awesomeness of God's grace and mercy more than you can ever imagine or understand. You haven't a clue of what I have experienced. Truly experience God's grace and mercy, and you will blush to think He demanded his son Jesus be brutally punished so that sins can be forgiven.

Yet this is the Gospel. Jesus accepted the full wrath of God so that we did not have to.

You realize you are rejecting the very verses your Catholic forefathers decided to include in the Bible, I hope.

 

[SweetSue92]

She is not being judgmental at all. Revelation was written by John, in apocalyptic literary style, to encourage first century Christians being persecuted to be true to themselves and to their faith. In fact, John was not addressing people who were not Christian, because non-Christians hadn't taken on a thing they needed to give up. On the other hand, some Christians were abandoning something they believed in for their personal safety or for their family's safety and daily provisions. If they were killed or imprisoned, who would take care of their little children. If they lost their employment who would feed their family?

John, who had watched Jesus die on the cross because Jesus would not abandon proclaiming God's message, had to have had this starkly in mind when he wrote Revelation his for fellow Christians. If one truly embraces the way of Christ, one cannot simply shed it at the first sign of adversity. Jesus certainly had not turned back when he had come face-to face-to-face with adversity.

So in your reckoning, God revealed Revelation to John to tell Christians not to abandon their faith because who would take care of their kids.

What a terrible, awful rendering of the Book that gave us a glimpse of the Throne of Heaven. What a travesty.

 

[SweetSue92]

I did not judge them...Christ did and will.

he told you in scripture exactly who the unbelievers are.... And with other scripture to back it up, it appears to be those who pretend to be Christ followers in the church, who do NOT follow Christ's teachings....

By your rendering, no one is a Christian. Not one.

Because there is not one person, even a committed Christian, who could live up to Christ's teachings perfectly.

So I guess Christ died for nothing, right? By your rendering.

 

[theHawk]

Yawn... today we have space shuttles and computers... we don't need to quiver before the sky we've conquered.

Yea….those space shuttles and computers are going to save you.

 

[theHawk]

I will use that free will to choose what I worship

Just like Adam and Eve. Do what you want, not what God’s laws command.

Let us know how that works out.

 

[theHawk]

Bullshit.

The promise of salvation is the way religions control you.

So everyone should just sin as they please?

 

[theHawk]

What god?

The one you don’t believe in.

 

[theHawk]

Try DYOFR . Every topic you just trot out the mainstream narrative , never thinking it might be partly or even fully wrong .The evidence is overwhelmng that he was an Essene , something that the early church leaders were more than keen to hide . Particularly when his consort the Magdelene was also an Essene -- whom he later married-- which the Church has been desperate to deny and ridicule . The problem is that the evidence is clear -- try Barbara Thiering , a theologoan and biblical scholar. Not some crackpot like the misogynist Peter .

LOL, Barbara Thiering was a joke. She was a total fraud and had nothing to back up her reimagining of the Bible. Even Jews rejected her as a crackpot.