University of Colorado allows students to carry guns

[Montrovant]

Rottweiler -

You claimed that ideology is less important than human lives.

Let's go through some of the key points you have thus far avoided addressing

I answered your questions, now extend me the same courtesy...

• Why do you insist on comparing the US to other nations where there is zero correlation? We're much bigger than the nations you list. We have an exponentially different mind set (France surrenders if a a little china man walks up with a squirt gun because they are the biggest pussies among pussies... America has never surrendered to anyone). And, unlike other nations, we have tons of criminals sneaking into our nation under the cover of darkness. Who the fuck is sneaking into Australia in the middle of the night? Yeah - exactly. Nobody.
  
  
  [*]Why do you ignore the facts that gun crimes only occur where guns are banned?
  
  
• Why do you ignore the endless news stories where lives were saved because a citizen had a firearm on them?
  
  
• Why the irrational attack on guns, when there are endless tools of death out there? Guns were banned in NY city - yet the NY Times reported in 2008 that murders with knives was up 50% (so much for banning guns, uh?).http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/nyregion/28knives.html
  
  
• Why can't you grasp the irrational "logic" of your argument? You point out the MURDERS by guns, and claim we should outlaw guns. Well MURDER is already outlawed, did that stop any of the murders?!?!?

What makes a criminal a criminal, is that they don't follow the law. So explain to me how making a law against guns will help anything? You can't, and that is evident by the other things outlawed that still go on (murder, rape, drugs, prostitution, assualt, theft, driving while intoxicated, jay walking, identity theft... want me to stop now?). Outlawing something only affects law abiding citizens. The dumbest thing you can do is disarm law abiding citizens, and that is PROVEN by the very mass shootings you keep pointing to!

You have brought this up before, and I just don't see the evidence that it's true. Not all criminals who use guns are going to be rational or intelligent, so the idea that they all plan their crimes to occur in places where guns are banned seems ludicrous. Arguing that places with gun bans have MORE gun crime is one thing; arguing they have ALL gun crime is another, and needs some pretty convincing evidence to be believed.

I'm not opposed to gun ownership. I just question this particular point you have brought up which I put in bold.

 

[GuyPinestra]

By Noomi's "logic" lol, we should immediately outlaw tire irons. Here this woman was being beaten to death by a tire iron, and a GUN stopped it. That's right, a gun SAVED A LIFE. Don't let the facts get in your way though Noomi...

I have had a LaserMax on my Glock 27 for about a year now. I have trained with it at the range, and practiced its activation until it became muscle memory. A week ago, about 2 am, I was returning from the hospital following a friend’s death from cancer. I realized I was almost out of gas, and needed to stop to refuel, despite the hour. As I began to fuel, I heard a lot of screaming, both male and female, from the other side of the station.

I ran to see what was the matter, and as I turned the corner, saw a woman on the ground bleeding from the head, and a man standing above her with a tire-iron. I immediately deployed my Glock, hitting the laser as I cleared the holster, and placed the dot on his chest from about 15 yards. I yelled, “Drop it or you’re dead.” The man looked up at me, saw the blinking light coming from my weapon, then looked down at his chest. He dropped the tire-iron and raised his hands in one motion. I ordered him to his belly, arms out.

The worker at the station had called the police, and poked his head out of the locked door to tell me they were coming. The woman was beginning to stumble to her feet, and I told the attendant to let her into the station with him and lock the door behind them. When the police got there, they saw the flashing coming from my weapon. Instead of the anticipated “drop your gun, get on the ground” they simply said “Good job. Holster your weapon, and we’ll take it from here.”

I think the LaserMax saved this woman’s life as she didn’t get hit a single time after I arrived. It certainly saved the man’s life, as I would have shot him dead had he appeared to begin another blow. And it helped the police see exactly what I was pointing at, and potentially saved my life.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online...four-surprise-concealed-handguns-saved-lives/

I am surprised he didn't pull the trigger anyway and claim 'Stand Your Ground'.

I'm sure sunrise surprises you, too.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

By Noomi's "logic" lol, we should immediately outlaw tire irons. Here this woman was being beaten to death by a tire iron, and a GUN stopped it. That's right, a gun SAVED A LIFE. Don't let the facts get in your way though Noomi...

I have had a LaserMax on my Glock 27 for about a year now. I have trained with it at the range, and practiced its activation until it became muscle memory. A week ago, about 2 am, I was returning from the hospital following a friend’s death from cancer. I realized I was almost out of gas, and needed to stop to refuel, despite the hour. As I began to fuel, I heard a lot of screaming, both male and female, from the other side of the station.

I ran to see what was the matter, and as I turned the corner, saw a woman on the ground bleeding from the head, and a man standing above her with a tire-iron. I immediately deployed my Glock, hitting the laser as I cleared the holster, and placed the dot on his chest from about 15 yards. I yelled, “Drop it or you’re dead.” The man looked up at me, saw the blinking light coming from my weapon, then looked down at his chest. He dropped the tire-iron and raised his hands in one motion. I ordered him to his belly, arms out.

The worker at the station had called the police, and poked his head out of the locked door to tell me they were coming. The woman was beginning to stumble to her feet, and I told the attendant to let her into the station with him and lock the door behind them. When the police got there, they saw the flashing coming from my weapon. Instead of the anticipated “drop your gun, get on the ground” they simply said “Good job. Holster your weapon, and we’ll take it from here.”

I think the LaserMax saved this woman’s life as she didn’t get hit a single time after I arrived. It certainly saved the man’s life, as I would have shot him dead had he appeared to begin another blow. And it helped the police see exactly what I was pointing at, and potentially saved my life.

http://www.tactical-life.com/online...four-surprise-concealed-handguns-saved-lives/

I am surprised he didn't pull the trigger anyway and claim 'Stand Your Ground'.

I'm sure sunrise surprises you, too.

A gun grabber can only hope.

 

[Saigon]

Rottweiler -

I had really hoped that you might try to deal with the issues honestly and coherently.

Again - you claimed that ideology is less important than human lives - and yet all you have done on this thread is clind desperately to ideology.

You mean other than the fact that we're 20x's the size of Germany and 37.92x's the size of England?

The figures are PER CAPITA, genius.

Can you explain why guns save lives more than 3,000x's more than other nations?

They don't. We know they don't, because the homocide rate in the US is so much higher than in other countries. Rather than just making figures up - try using serious sources. Seriously man....what were you thinking?!

And they are all far, far, far smaller than the US.

Firstly - no they aren't. Secondly - try and think this one through. Really. Do you really think 200 school shootings in the US and 1 in Italy can be explained by population?

Do you really need me to run the numbers here for you?

Italy: 58 million - 1 school shooting & 1 fatality. USA 311 million - 60+ school shootings and 200+ deaths.

And all 60 of those school shootings occured at schools that ban guns. That's a 100% rate. Draw your own conclusions there (hint: it's a no brainer).

It is a no-brainer, but it seems to have escaped you!! Really - if the US has ten times the number of guns and ten times the number of school shootings of another country - clearly guns are the problem.

If you want to present evidence that guns in school save lives, then by all means present some examples of countries/states where this has occured. I think you will find no statistics exist.

To answer your point:

Why do you ignore the facts that gun crimes only occur where guns are banned?

Firstly, because you have presented no evidence that this is true, and I think we both know that it isn't true. It's a laughable claim, and one I am convinced you do not believe yourself.

Secondly, because I have just presented masses of statistics which prove precisely the opposite in studies which compare the US with other countries.

Thirdly, because establishing a 'gun-free zone' within an area awash with guns is like establishing a marine park in the middle of a major fishery - it can only produce statistical anomilies because it will always reflect the surrounding area, in which guns can be freely bought and carried.

 

[Saigon]

I have to say, reasing through this thread, I am amazed that not a single poster is willing to actually address the statistics presented.

Not one.

All we see on this thread is dodging, one liners and nonsense from the likes of Gallant Warrior and BigReb. It's astonishing.

I would really have thought gun owners might have at least wanted to present a case.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I have to say, reasing through this thread, I am amazed that not a single poster is willing to actually address the statistics presented.

Not one.

All we see on this thread is dodging, one liners and nonsense.

I would really have thought gun owners might have at least wanted to present a case.

I gave you the stats from the FBI you disregard them for a schools findings Harvard wasn't it?

 

[Saigon]

I gave you the stats from the FBI you disregard them for a schools findings Harvard wasn't it?

BigReb -

You flat out refused to look at the Harvard studies presented - which is exactly what I mean.

Jamming your fingers in your ears and shouting doesn't convince many people that you have a case to make.

(btw. I did read and posted a few comments on the FBI stats, which I thought were very interesting and worthwhile.)

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I gave you the stats from the FBI you disregard them for a schools findings Harvard wasn't it?

BigReb -

You flat out refused to look at the Harvard studies presented - which is exactly what I mean.

Jamming your fingers in your ears and shouting doesn't convince many people that you have a case to make.

(btw. I did read and posted a few comments on the FBI stats, which I thought were very interesting and worthwhile.)

Do you know who the FBI is?

 

[tjvh]

I gave you the stats from the FBI you disregard them for a schools findings Harvard wasn't it?

BigReb -

You flat out refused to look at the Harvard studies presented - which is exactly what I mean.

Jamming your fingers in your ears and shouting doesn't convince many people that you have a case to make.

(btw. I did read and posted a few comments on the FBI stats, which I thought were very interesting and worthwhile.)

Harvard lost it's credibility when they allowed affirmative action to grant a degree to the Commander in Choom rather than individual achievement. If I'm wrong, then show me the transcripts.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I gave you the stats from the FBI you disregard them for a schools findings Harvard wasn't it?

BigReb -

You flat out refused to look at the Harvard studies presented - which is exactly what I mean.

Jamming your fingers in your ears and shouting doesn't convince many people that you have a case to make.

(btw. I did read and posted a few comments on the FBI stats, which I thought were very interesting and worthwhile.)

Harvard lost it's credibility when they allowed affirmative action to grant a degree to the Commander in Choom rather than individual achievement. If I'm wrong, then show me the transcripts.

FBI stats versus Harvard research? Tough choose which would you say was more accredited?

 

[P@triot]

Seems like their is an endless supply of these examples popping up, and proving the profound ignornace of Noomi and the other anti-gun idiots out there....

A 92-year-old World War II veteran shot and killed a suspected robber who attempted to break into his Kentucky home Monday morning. Two other men believed to be involved in the botched home invasion are lucky to have escaped with their lives and are now behind bars.

Earl Jones Shoots and Kills Suspected Robber at Kentucky Home | Video | TheBlaze.com

 

[Saigon]

Rottweiler -

Do you really not think providing individual examples of where guns "may" have saved a life is using a bow and arrow against the modern artillery of statistics?

Do you really not think that any poster with 5 minutes on their hands could present 20, 50 examples from the past few months where guns have cost lives?

 

[Charles_Main]

Huh? Are you serious? All this will do is make it more likely there will be another mass shooting!

What evidence do you have to support that?

One can assume on a campus where many people are Carrying, any Gun Man would find it much harder to run around killing people at will Because somebody is going to shoot back.

You have no proof at all of your assertion, You are simply making an emotional Response.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Huh? Are you serious? All this will do is make it more likely there will be another mass shooting!

Yeah because a shooting/murder would never happen in the midtown of a city that has banned them form the streets. I mean a man would never wait for his former co-worker to show up, shoot him in the head, and (attempt to) walk away. Never.

Awesome.Maybe we can avoid another Va Tech. Bout time people came to their senses.

Would the Va Tech shooting have happened in the shooter had not had access to guns?

Bout time people came to their senses, alright!

Marijuana's illegal-and everybody has access to it (if they wish to). What's your point? Criminals don't follow the law by definition. While drugs most certainly fund gangs/cartels...imagine how much more they would make if guns were made illegal. Do you really think that people would stop buying guns? Do you really think it would make a significant dent in gun ownership? Sure it might a little bit-but you cannot assume that criminals (people who murder/mass killings) will follow the law.

Your argument really is as silly as saying that pot is illegal-therefore nobody has access to it.


edit: and finally I challenge those who want guns to be made illegal to answer me this one question:

-Why should a law abiding citizen not have the right to own a gun in their home for self defense against any criminal who breaks in and may potentially harm them and/or their family. I'll be waiting.

 

[Saigon]

Charles -

Do you think the shooters at Columbine and Virginia Tech should have been allowed to buy and own guns?

 

[Saigon]

Marijuana's illegal-and everybody has access to it (if they wish to). What's your point? Criminals don't follow the law by definition. While drugs most certainly fund gangs/cartels...imagine how much more they would make if guns were made illegal. Do you really think that people would stop buying guns? Do you really think it would make a significant dent in gun ownership? Sure it might a little bit-but you cannot assume that criminals (people who murder/mass killings) will follow the law.

Your argument really is as silly as saying that pot is illegal-therefore nobody has access to it.

My point is that if you make it impossible for risk categories of the population to buy and own guns, you wil radically reduce the numbers of mass-shootings.

It's not a question of criminals obeying the law - but of the people who might sell guns to them. That is where authorities can take control and utulize sane gun laws that also take public safety into consideration - as happens in other countries.

 

[Charles_Main]

Charles -

Do you think the shooters at Columbine and Virginia Tech should have been allowed to buy and own guns?

No I don't and in Both Cases they had a History of Mental Illness that should have stopped them from Buying one.

Do you think that if the Students of Both those Universities had been allowed to Carry that perhaps the Shooters would not have been able to kill so many People before someone put them down?

 

[Saigon]

No I don't and in Both Cases they had a History of Mental Illness that should have stopped them from Buying one.

Do you think that if the Students of Both those Universities had been allowed to Carry that perhaps the Shooters would not have been able to kill so many People before someone put them down?

I totally agree with you on the first point - always nice to find some common ground!!

I do not think guns have any place in any school or learning institution.

Teenagers and young adults are a high risk group for gun ownership - prone to emotional swings, depression, not to mention drug and alcohol abuse. There is too high a risk of both firearm accidents and homocides committed in fits of teenage rage to make that risk acceptable.

Also consider the stats (posted earlier in this thread).

The US has had more than 60 school shootings. Italy has had one, and England one. Many EU countries have never had a school shooting.

Neither allow guns in schools.

Why not follow their lead?

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Rottweiler -

You claimed that ideology is less important than human lives.

Let's go through some of the key points you have thus far avoided addressing.

1) Can you explain why the US tolerates a homocide rates 5 times that of Germany, and a gun-related homocide rate 246 times that of the UK?

2) Can you explain why guns feature in 60% of US homocides, but less than 20% in other countries?

3) The US has had more than 60 mass school shootings at a cost of more than 200 lives. The UK has only ever had one school shooting, as had France and Italy.

4) You have claimed that gun control does not work, but when we compare the US to France, Germany, the UK and Australia we see that all of those countries have far, far lower homocide rates than the US, and far tighter laws.

Should the US not then adopt those same laws?

3)

-Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation. As somebody spouting out statistics, you seemed have to left out this simple principle that you learn in Stats 101.

-Now in order to believe that this could be the case when evaluating statistics, you need to have a reason to suspect that the correlation =/= causation. In your example the answer is painfully obvious: culture.


-Canada is currently 3rd among developed nations in gun ownership rate (according to the UN-see link below). So let's look at their rate of gun-related homicides to the rest of the developed world shall we?

-Italy (ironically a country YOU brought up) has 1.66 per 100,000 people murdered per year by a firearm
-Canada has 0.76

Now let's look at ANOTHER country that YOU brought up.

-France has 6.35 total deaths per 100,000 people with a firearm
-Canada has 4.78 total deaths per 100,000 people with a firearm


(these stats were taken from the International Journal of Epidemiology ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf). It's in the Oxford database...legit enough of a source for you?


So Canada has MORE guns per capita than Italy, but LESS homicides via firearms per capita. Are you still sure that correlation = causation?


The Right to Bear Arms: U.S. and Canada




-I'll finish my argument with the summary of what the UN (legit enough of a source for you?) concluded:

"In the United States, 52% of the year 2000 homicides were committed with guns. In Canada, about a third of the 554 murders in 2001 resulted from shootings. These numbers certainly underscore the correlation between guns per capita and gun-related murders, but it is difficult to disentangle the actual causal pattern at work."


-Finally, what does all of this mean? Well it means that the US absolutely has a higher homicide rate with homicides, and a higher rate of gun owners than the rest of the developed world. But it does NOT mean that these two things correlate with one another.

-Stay away from statistics if you have no clue how to use them. This is like shooting fish in a barrel (pun intended).


Now you're asking others questions, now here's my question for you:

-Why do you think that there are more murders via firearm in the US compared to other countries? And why do you think there are more murder via firearm in Italy than Canada, and more firearm deaths in France than Canada?

 

[Saigon]

James -

Nice to seesome real data and statistics presented here - thanks for a useful post.

I'm just rushing off to work, but will answer this in more detail this evening.

Just one thing I notice right off the bat -

Correlation doesn't necessarily equal causation

I do not believe guns CAUSE crime - hence I am not saying correlation does equal causation.

I believe guns ENABLE crime.

All countries have crime and criminals, but I believe that the statistics are so much worse in violent crime in the US because the presence of such massive amounts of weapons mean that criminals are more likely to kill people in a crime in the US than they are in other countries, where they may only be armed with a knife or fists.

I'll come back to the othe stats later - they look interesting.

the US absolutely has a higher homicide rate with homicides, and a higher rate of gun owners than the rest of the developed world. But it does NOT mean that these two things correlate with one another.

Rsearch conducted by Harvard has concluded that there is a very clear correlation - and not only between the US and other countries, but across a range of 26 countries (from memory) the study concluded that a very strong correlation existed between gun posession statistics and homocides.

While there were other factors involved (i.e. gun ownership in rural areas causes less fatalities than in urban areas), the report concluded that the correlation was basically undeniable. I'd go further and say when you look at the homocide statistics it is obvious.