Want gun control? Fight smart.

[Anathema]

I was going to compose a letter to these young whippersnappers today, telling them that they are the voice of hope, but only if they refrain from the usual screeching and name calling and hyperbolic empty rhetoric that passes for political "debate" these days. I didn't have to write it--David Brooks already did.
I wanted to share it with all of you, and hope/wish you will all read it and think about it.

DAVID BROOKS

Respect First, Then Gun Control......

We don’t really have policy debates anymore. We have one big tribal conflict, and policy fights are just proxy battles as each side tries to establish moral superiority. But just as the tribal mentality has been turned on, it can be turned off. Then and only then can we go back to normal politics and take reasonable measures to keep our children safe.

That sort of thing looks and sounds wonderful until you get one or two actual Ideologues (like myself) in the room. Then the whole thing falls apart.

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Opinion | Respect First, Then Gun Control

I found this editorial to be of some interest, some quotes:

"This has been an emotional week. We greet tragedies like the school shooting in Florida with shock, sadness, mourning and grief that turns into indignation and rage. The anger inevitably gets directed at the N.R.A., those who support gun rights, and the politicians who refuse to do anything while children die.

Many of us walked this emotional path. But we may end up doing more harm than good. If there’s one thing we’ve learned, it is that guns have become a cultural flash point in a nation that is unequal and divided. The people who defend gun rights believe that snobbish elites look down on their morals and want to destroy their culture. If we end up telling such people that they and their guns are despicable, they will just despise us back and dig in their heels."

"One of the most successful parts of the structured conversations is built around stereotypes. Doherty, the head moderator, asks the people at each gathering to name five major stereotypes that the other side throws at them. The Republicans invariably list “racist” first, followed by, say, “uncaring,” “uneducated,” “misogynistic” and “science deniers.”

Doherty says that the Reds feel shamed by the Blues to a much greater degree than the Blues realize. Reds are very reluctant to enter into a conversation with Blues, for fear of further shaming, but they often come to the table when they are told that this will be a chance to “de-monsterize” themselves.

At that session one Blue said she was really grateful to hear a Red acknowledge the Republican history on race. When Blues are asked about the stereotypes thrown at them, they tend to list “against religion and morality,” “unpatriotic” and “against personal responsibility” among their responses. They, too, relish the chance to clear the air.

By the end of the conversations, the atmosphere has changed. Nearly always somebody will say that the discussion was easy because only moderates were in the room, not the people who post crazy stuff on Facebook. The staff tries not to smile, knowing that some of the people were selected precisely because of the intense stuff they posted on Facebook."


We don’t really have policy debates anymore. We have one big tribal conflict, and policy fights are just proxy battles as each side tries to establish moral superiority. But just as the tribal mentality has been turned on, it can be turned off. Then and only then can we go back to normal politics and take reasonable measures to keep our children safe.

 

[OldLady]

Opinion | Respect First, Then Gun Control

I found this editorial to be of some interest, some quotes:

"This has been an emotional week. We greet tragedies like the school shooting in Florida with shock, sadness, mourning and grief that turns into indignation and rage. The anger inevitably gets directed at the N.R.A., those who support gun rights, and the politicians who refuse to do anything while children die.

Many of us walked this emotional path. But we may end up doing more harm than good. If there’s one thing we’ve learned, it is that guns have become a cultural flash point in a nation that is unequal and divided. The people who defend gun rights believe that snobbish elites look down on their morals and want to destroy their culture. If we end up telling such people that they and their guns are despicable, they will just despise us back and dig in their heels."

"One of the most successful parts of the structured conversations is built around stereotypes. Doherty, the head moderator, asks the people at each gathering to name five major stereotypes that the other side throws at them. The Republicans invariably list “racist” first, followed by, say, “uncaring,” “uneducated,” “misogynistic” and “science deniers.”

Doherty says that the Reds feel shamed by the Blues to a much greater degree than the Blues realize. Reds are very reluctant to enter into a conversation with Blues, for fear of further shaming, but they often come to the table when they are told that this will be a chance to “de-monsterize” themselves.

At that session one Blue said she was really grateful to hear a Red acknowledge the Republican history on race. When Blues are asked about the stereotypes thrown at them, they tend to list “against religion and morality,” “unpatriotic” and “against personal responsibility” among their responses. They, too, relish the chance to clear the air.

By the end of the conversations, the atmosphere has changed. Nearly always somebody will say that the discussion was easy because only moderates were in the room, not the people who post crazy stuff on Facebook. The staff tries not to smile, knowing that some of the people were selected precisely because of the intense stuff they posted on Facebook."


We don’t really have policy debates anymore. We have one big tribal conflict, and policy fights are just proxy battles as each side tries to establish moral superiority. But just as the tribal mentality has been turned on, it can be turned off. Then and only then can we go back to normal politics and take reasonable measures to keep our children safe.

I've got this OP running in "Want Gun Control--Fight Smart" same forum. You might want to merge it?

 

[Auld Phart]

it gives the Right to the people, not the Militia.

Because a well regulated militia is necessary for the security of a free state. It says that right in the Constitution. I don't know why you're scared of admitting that.

and, AGAIN, it give the right to keep and bear arms TO THE PEOPLE.

how often are you going to repeat that same, lame, tired, inaccuracy?

 

[EvilEyeFleegle]

Opinion | Respect First, Then Gun Control

I found this editorial to be of some interest, some quotes:

"This has been an emotional week. We greet tragedies like the school shooting in Florida with shock, sadness, mourning and grief that turns into indignation and rage. The anger inevitably gets directed at the N.R.A., those who support gun rights, and the politicians who refuse to do anything while children die.

Many of us walked this emotional path. But we may end up doing more harm than good. If there’s one thing we’ve learned, it is that guns have become a cultural flash point in a nation that is unequal and divided. The people who defend gun rights believe that snobbish elites look down on their morals and want to destroy their culture. If we end up telling such people that they and their guns are despicable, they will just despise us back and dig in their heels."

"One of the most successful parts of the structured conversations is built around stereotypes. Doherty, the head moderator, asks the people at each gathering to name five major stereotypes that the other side throws at them. The Republicans invariably list “racist” first, followed by, say, “uncaring,” “uneducated,” “misogynistic” and “science deniers.”

Doherty says that the Reds feel shamed by the Blues to a much greater degree than the Blues realize. Reds are very reluctant to enter into a conversation with Blues, for fear of further shaming, but they often come to the table when they are told that this will be a chance to “de-monsterize” themselves.

At that session one Blue said she was really grateful to hear a Red acknowledge the Republican history on race. When Blues are asked about the stereotypes thrown at them, they tend to list “against religion and morality,” “unpatriotic” and “against personal responsibility” among their responses. They, too, relish the chance to clear the air.

By the end of the conversations, the atmosphere has changed. Nearly always somebody will say that the discussion was easy because only moderates were in the room, not the people who post crazy stuff on Facebook. The staff tries not to smile, knowing that some of the people were selected precisely because of the intense stuff they posted on Facebook."


We don’t really have policy debates anymore. We have one big tribal conflict, and policy fights are just proxy battles as each side tries to establish moral superiority. But just as the tribal mentality has been turned on, it can be turned off. Then and only then can we go back to normal politics and take reasonable measures to keep our children safe.

I've got this OP running in "Want Gun Control--Fight Smart" same forum. You might want to merge it?

Ooops..missed that one..sorry.

 

[DrLove]

Marching is fine if it gets the Congress's attention. I hope many many people old enough to vote will show up to support them.
And I agree -- I just love David Brooks. Not always his politics, but his heart and mind is in exactly the right place.

I'm very impressed with these kids - they've found their voices. I was an A minus student in high school and was editor of our school newspaper, but don't think I had this sort of maturity or ability to articulate in such a manner.

 

[OldLady]

I was going to compose a letter to these young whippersnappers today, telling them that they are the voice of hope, but only if they refrain from the usual screeching and name calling and hyperbolic empty rhetoric that passes for political "debate" these days. I didn't have to write it--David Brooks already did.
I wanted to share it with all of you, and hope/wish you will all read it and think about it.

DAVID BROOKS

Respect First, Then Gun Control......

We don’t really have policy debates anymore. We have one big tribal conflict, and policy fights are just proxy battles as each side tries to establish moral superiority. But just as the tribal mentality has been turned on, it can be turned off. Then and only then can we go back to normal politics and take reasonable measures to keep our children safe.

That sort of thing looks and sounds wonderful until you get one or two actual Ideologues (like myself) in the room. Then the whole thing falls apart.

It takes a lot of practice to not start spitting bullets at the opposition. (If my delete key could speak.....)

Yes, the thread is unravelling now, but there were a few pages of actual discussion. So go for it. LOL

 

[OldLady]

Marching is fine if it gets the Congress's attention. I hope many many people old enough to vote will show up to support them.
And I agree -- I just love David Brooks. Not always his politics, but his heart and mind is in exactly the right place.

I'm very impressed with these kids - they've found their voices. I was an A minus student in high school and was editor of our school newspaper, but don't think I had this sort of maturity or ability to articulate in such a manner.

They have GOT to back up their threats with facts and specific suggestions. Otherwise, it's just more hot air, DrLove. We aren't hearing all they have to say, so I hope they've got that in their pockets, too.

Bless that young lady that gave the "B.S. Speech" with the tears rolling down her face. I agree with her 100% but if they're going to talk to legislators, they need more than what's wrong. They need to push toward what they think is right.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. Probably am. We can all step in, though, and help, can't we?

 

[Auld Phart]

Enjoying the thread, despite the parrots, but I have a package coming that I need to sign for, so I'm going to grab a book, and wait for it upstairs.


Later, y'all

 

[Compost]

Which AR-15 Can You Hunt With?

You realize, of course, that hunting has frak all to do with the 2nd Amendment.

Try reading all of the remarks. I'm responding to OP's assertion that nobody hunts with an AR15.

The general response is, yes, you can hunt with an AR15, but as we get talking, no one I've talked to actually uses one for hunting. That is all I'm saying.

Yes. A tiny number of hunters you spoke with don't happen to choose an AR15 to hunt with means pretty much nothing.

You are definitely missing the point of this thread.

No I'm not. You just won't admit you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to specific guns.

 

[DrLove]

They have GOT to back up their threats with facts and specific suggestions. Otherwise, it's just more hot air, DrLove. We aren't hearing all they have to say, so I hope they've got that in their pockets, too.

Bless that young lady that gave the "B.S. Speech" with the tears rolling down her face. I agree with her 100% but if they're going to talk to legislators, they need more than what's wrong. They need to push toward what they think is right.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. Probably am. We can all step in, though, and help, can't we?

Give them another month to formulate those thoughts OL. They're just now waking up and understandably PTSD.

But yeah - Agree with this assessment .. Emma's "BS Speech" was a damn good start.

Emma González, an 18-year-old senior at Stoneman Douglas who witnessed and survived last week's atrocity, stepped up to the microphone, opened her mouth, and spoke. She spoke with truth and rage and eloquence. She spoke with a righteousness rarely heard in today's America, and she reminded an entire nation what it sounds like when the people decide to stem the tide.

From the very first words she spoke, González radiated tenacity, strength through pain and grief. Even as she wiped tears from her eyes, her voice never faltered. It only rose. In the moments when she was angriest, she left listeners with goosebumps. Her anger is inspiring. It is a call to arms that says victims do not have to be subjected to the whims of victimizers, that they can stand up and speak in a voice that is unyielding and say, "No more."

In her voice, in her fury, and in her strength, González reminds us that no one in this nation is powerless and that anyone can effect change if they get angry, get loud, and get active. And that is exactly the reminder this country needs right now. The voice of this brilliant, pissed-off woman speaks for her generation.​

This Is What Righteousness Sounds Like: The Importance of Emma González

 

[OldLady]

Opinion | Respect First, Then Gun Control

I found this editorial to be of some interest, some quotes:

"This has been an emotional week. We greet tragedies like the school shooting in Florida with shock, sadness, mourning and grief that turns into indignation and rage. The anger inevitably gets directed at the N.R.A., those who support gun rights, and the politicians who refuse to do anything while children die.

Many of us walked this emotional path. But we may end up doing more harm than good. If there’s one thing we’ve learned, it is that guns have become a cultural flash point in a nation that is unequal and divided. The people who defend gun rights believe that snobbish elites look down on their morals and want to destroy their culture. If we end up telling such people that they and their guns are despicable, they will just despise us back and dig in their heels."

"One of the most successful parts of the structured conversations is built around stereotypes. Doherty, the head moderator, asks the people at each gathering to name five major stereotypes that the other side throws at them. The Republicans invariably list “racist” first, followed by, say, “uncaring,” “uneducated,” “misogynistic” and “science deniers.”

Doherty says that the Reds feel shamed by the Blues to a much greater degree than the Blues realize. Reds are very reluctant to enter into a conversation with Blues, for fear of further shaming, but they often come to the table when they are told that this will be a chance to “de-monsterize” themselves.

At that session one Blue said she was really grateful to hear a Red acknowledge the Republican history on race. When Blues are asked about the stereotypes thrown at them, they tend to list “against religion and morality,” “unpatriotic” and “against personal responsibility” among their responses. They, too, relish the chance to clear the air.

By the end of the conversations, the atmosphere has changed. Nearly always somebody will say that the discussion was easy because only moderates were in the room, not the people who post crazy stuff on Facebook. The staff tries not to smile, knowing that some of the people were selected precisely because of the intense stuff they posted on Facebook."


We don’t really have policy debates anymore. We have one big tribal conflict, and policy fights are just proxy battles as each side tries to establish moral superiority. But just as the tribal mentality has been turned on, it can be turned off. Then and only then can we go back to normal politics and take reasonable measures to keep our children safe.

Thanks, Fleegle. This takes some real moderators with skills, but it's a great group. If only everyone could find a space where they felt safe enough to actually discuss without drawing blood.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Republican history on race.....much better than Democrats....you believe your own bs

Yes indeed but Lincoln has been dead for quite some time. Were you the Manonthestreet with a tiki torch giving the Hitler salute?

You believe your programming too....no doubt the flip spin too. Gee why can't we find a solution when so many believe so much bs

 

[Anathema]

It takes a lot of practice to not start spitting bullets at the opposition. (If my delete key could speak.....)

Yes, the thread is unravelling now, but there were a few pages of actual discussion. So go for it. LOL

I wasn't talking about the thread as much as the concept of getting both sides together to "clear the air" and "create an atmosphere of trust" as people like to say. Thst works great until the ideologues show up. Then it all falls apart.

 

[OldLady]

You realize, of course, that hunting has frak all to do with the 2nd Amendment.

Try reading all of the remarks. I'm responding to OP's assertion that nobody hunts with an AR15.

The general response is, yes, you can hunt with an AR15, but as we get talking, no one I've talked to actually uses one for hunting. That is all I'm saying.

Yes. A tiny number of hunters you spoke with don't happen to choose an AR15 to hunt with means pretty much nothing.

You are definitely missing the point of this thread.

No I'm not. You just won't admit you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to specific guns.

You're right. I don't know anything about specific guns. Do you feel better now?

 

[Compost]

Try reading all of the remarks. I'm responding to OP's assertion that nobody hunts with an AR15.

The general response is, yes, you can hunt with an AR15, but as we get talking, no one I've talked to actually uses one for hunting. That is all I'm saying.

Yes. A tiny number of hunters you spoke with don't happen to choose an AR15 to hunt with means pretty much nothing.

You are definitely missing the point of this thread.

No I'm not. You just won't admit you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to specific guns.

You're right. I don't know anything about specific guns. Do you feel better now?

Feeeel better? LOL Go back to your workshop. They'll be doing another group hug soon.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I would love to know what law would have stopped that kid from shooting up the school.

The law that says a person can't buy a hand gun until they are 21, should have included semi automatics like the AR15.

18 year olds love to hunt. I am sure they appreciate you stripping their freedoms for being COMPLETELY innocent.
Even if, he would have just used something else. So, what kind of law would have stopped him from shooting up that school?

Seems 19 year old Nikolas Cruz liked to hunt too, and I wonder why you would enable him to do so?

 

[Marion Morrison]

They have GOT to back up their threats with facts and specific suggestions. Otherwise, it's just more hot air, DrLove. We aren't hearing all they have to say, so I hope they've got that in their pockets, too.

Bless that young lady that gave the "B.S. Speech" with the tears rolling down her face. I agree with her 100% but if they're going to talk to legislators, they need more than what's wrong. They need to push toward what they think is right.

Maybe I'm expecting too much. Probably am. We can all step in, though, and help, can't we?

Give them another month to formulate those thoughts OL. They're just now waking up and understandably PTSD.

But yeah - Agree with this assessment .. Emma's "BS Speech" was a damn good start.

Emma González, an 18-year-old senior at Stoneman Douglas who witnessed and survived last week's atrocity, stepped up to the microphone, opened her mouth, and spoke. She spoke with truth and rage and eloquence. She spoke with a righteousness rarely heard in today's America, and she reminded an entire nation what it sounds like when the people decide to stem the tide.

From the very first words she spoke, González radiated tenacity, strength through pain and grief. Even as she wiped tears from her eyes, her voice never faltered. It only rose. In the moments when she was angriest, she left listeners with goosebumps. Her anger is inspiring. It is a call to arms that says victims do not have to be subjected to the whims of victimizers, that they can stand up and speak in a voice that is unyielding and say, "No more."

In her voice, in her fury, and in her strength, González reminds us that no one in this nation is powerless and that anyone can effect change if they get angry, get loud, and get active. And that is exactly the reminder this country needs right now. The voice of this brilliant, pissed-off woman speaks for her generation.​

This Is What Righteousness Sounds Like: The Importance of Emma González

She spoke like a retarded snowflake throwing a fit.

 

[Marion Morrison]

I would love to know what law would have stopped that kid from shooting up the school.

The law that says a person can't buy a hand gun until they are 21, should have included semi automatics like the AR15.

18 year olds love to hunt. I am sure they appreciate you stripping their freedoms for being COMPLETELY innocent.
Even if, he would have just used something else. So, what kind of law would have stopped him from shooting up that school?

Seems 19 year old Nikolas Cruz liked to hunt too, and I wonder why you would enable him to do so?

I would enable his ass to wear a straightjacket and get Thorazine shots twice a day.

 

[DrLove]

She spoke like a retarded snowflake throwing a fit.

Well we disagree, but at least you didn't call her a "rug muncher" like one of your USMB pals did yesterday.