Were Most Of America's Founding Fathers - Christians

[JakeStarkey]

The article I posted from TFM does that. Go back and read it.

No, actually it does not, I did read it. All it does is make unfounded accusations about a text book that he wrote without one sentence or fact that refuted anything specific, and no details as to why anything that was in the text book was inaccurate or incorrect. Actually very similar to what you do on this forum, no surprises there.

It does the opposite. Have you read the gentleman's careful and objective rebuttal to Barton? Of course not.

Your type of attitude we dealt with at the school board in this manner: respectfully and dismissively.

If you want pseudo-history taught to your children, send them to a far right social conservative school.

'magine some far right scum, Ernie S., for example, who disagress.

They are looking to the past, so they have mortgaged their futurer.

They can't come back.

 

[DriftingSand]

No, actually it does not, I did read it. All it does is make unfounded accusations about a text book that he wrote without one sentence or fact that refuted anything specific, and no details as to why anything that was in the text book was inaccurate or incorrect. Actually very similar to what you do on this forum, no surprises there.

It does the opposite. Have you read the gentleman's careful and objective rebuttal to Barton? Of course not.

Your type of attitude we dealt with at the school board in this manner: respectfully and dismissively.

If you want pseudo-history taught to your children, send them to a far right social conservative school.

'magine some far right scum, Ernie S., for example, who disagress.

They are looking to the past, so they have mortgaged their futurer.

They can't come back.

Have you already started sipping wine? You're not making any sense.

 

[DriftingSand]

Where do you see the Christian gods mentioned in the wording of the constitution?

At least we can agree that our nation wasn't founded as a Christian nation.

May I refer you to the opening post #1.
And then to posts #170 & #171. Thank you.

Why, in your own words, would the Congress have an American Bible printed and recommend that they be placed in America's schools?

May I ask that you get some knowledge of the facts. Thank you.

Congress did not have any bibles printed.

What American schools received these bibles?

Okay ... now I know that you haven't ready ANY of the information provided nor did you watch the videos. Please know what you're talking before you speak.

Read post #171. The link is DIRECTLY from the Library of Congress. That's an official site. Then, watch the second video in the OP. It's short and really, really easy to understand. Then get back to me that tell me that Congress "didn't have any Bibles printed."

 

[DriftingSand]

[MENTION=37754]Hollie[/MENTION]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
http://loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel04.html

 

[Hollie]

May I refer you to the opening post #1.
And then to posts #170 & #171. Thank you.

Why, in your own words, would the Congress have an American Bible printed and recommend that they be placed in America's schools?

May I ask that you get some knowledge of the facts. Thank you.

Congress did not have any bibles printed.

What American schools received these bibles?

Okay ... now I know that you haven't ready ANY of the information provided nor did you watch the videos. Please know what you're talking before you speak.

Read post #172. The link is DIRECTLY from the Library of Congress. That's an official site. Then, watch the second video in the OP. It's short and really, really easy to understand. Then get back to me that tell me that Congress "didn't have any Bibles printed."

I read post #172. Why didn't you?

I'll tell you again. Congress did not have any Bibles printed.

From post#172:

"Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken (1734-1802) petitioned Congress to officially sanction a publication of the Old and New Testament which he was preparing at his own expense."

Did you see the part where it identifies Robert Aitken, "at his own expense".

What part of Robert Aitken, "at his own expense" are you finding that conflicts with: "Congress did not have any Bibles printed"

 

[Hollie]

[MENTION=37754]Hollie[/MENTION]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

[MENTION=47390]DriftingSand[/MENTION]

So what?

 

[DriftingSand]

[MENTION=37754]Hollie[/MENTION]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

[MENTION=47390]DriftingSand[/MENTION]

So what?

LOL. Just a few moments ago you state that Congress never had Bibles printed and when I prove otherwise it's -- "so what?" I guess we're finished here. Go run along now.

 

[Hollie]

[MENTION=37754]Hollie[/MENTION]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

@ DriftingSand

Are you sure Jefferson is someone you falsely represent him to be?

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. "
-- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787


"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

 

[Hollie]

[MENTION=37754]Hollie[/MENTION]



Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

[MENTION=47390]DriftingSand[/MENTION]

So what?

LOL. Just a few moments ago you state that Congress never had Bibles printed and when I prove otherwise it's -- "so what?" I guess we're finished here. Go run along now.

LOL. I addressed you phony misrepresentation.

You pretended post 185 doesn't exist.

I guess you're done with lies and deceit.

 

[DriftingSand]

[MENTION=37754]Hollie[/MENTION]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible, imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, and granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians. National days of thanksgiving and of "humiliation, fasting, and prayer" were proclaimed by Congress at least twice a year throughout the war.

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

@ DriftingSand

Are you sure Jefferson is someone you falsely represent him to be?

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. "
-- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787


"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Now for the other side of the story. No cherry picking allowed.

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives.

Jefferson's actions may seem surprising because his attitude toward the relation between religion and government is usually thought to have been embodied in his recommendation that there exist "a wall of separation between church and state." In that statement, Jefferson was apparently declaring his opposition, as Madison had done in introducing the Bill of Rights, to a "national" religion.

In attending church services on public property, Jefferson and Madison consciously and deliberately were offering symbolic support to religion as a prop for republican government.

In the 1790s, Thomas Jefferson, influenced by the writings of Joseph Priestly, seems to have adopted a more positive opinion of Christianity. In this letter to his friend Benjamin Rush, Jefferson asserted that he was a "Christian, in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished any one to be." In an attached syllabus, Jefferson compared the "merit of the doctrines of Jesus" with those of the classical philosophers and the Jews. Jefferson pronounced Jesus' doctrines, though "disfigured by the corruptions of schismatising followers" far superior to any competing system. Jefferson declined to consider the "question of [Jesus] being a member of the god-head, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others."

From the Library Of Congress: Religion and the Federal Government, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

 

[Hollie]

John Adams

"The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

Regarding Government Meddling With Religion

"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."
-- John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785

"I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself".
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, August 29, 1756


Regarding Religion Meddling with Government

"We think ourselves possessed, or, at least, we boast that we are so, of liberty of conscience on all subjects, and of the right of free inquiry and private judgment in all cases, and yet how far are we from these exalted privileges in fact! There exists, I believe, throughout the whole Christian world, a law which makes it blasphemy to deny or doubt the divine inspiration of all the books of the Old and New Testaments, from Genesis to Revelations. In most countries of Europe it is punished by fire at the stake, or the rack, or the wheel. In England itself it is punished by boring through the tongue with a red-hot poker. In America it is not better; even in our own Massachusetts, which I believe, upon the whole, is as temperate and moderate in religious zeal as most of the States, a law was made in the latter end of the last century, repealing the cruel punishments of the former laws, but substituting fine and imprisonment upon all those blasphemers upon any book of the Old Testament or New. Now, what free inquiry, when a writer must surely encounter the risk of fine or imprisonment for adducing any argument for investigating into the divine authority of those books? Who would run the risk of translating Dupuis? But I cannot enlarge upon this subject, though I have it much at heart. I think such laws a great embarrassment, great obstructions to the improvement of the human mind. Books that cannot bear examination, certainly ought not to be established as divine inspiration by penal laws. It is true, few persons appear desirous to put such laws in execution, and it is also true that some few persons are hardy enough to venture to depart from them. But as long as they continue in force as laws, the human mind must make an awkward and clumsy progress in its investigations. I wish they were repealed. The substance and essence of Christianity, as I understand it, is eternal and unchangeable, and will bear examination forever, but it has been mixed with extraneous ingredients, which I think will not bear examination, and they ought to be separated. Adieu."
-- John Adams, one of his last letters to Thomas Jefferson, January 23, 1825. Adams was 90, Jefferson 81 at the time; both died on July 4th of the following year, on the 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence.

"Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America"

Prophetic Statements Based on History

"The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning.... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes."
-- John Adams, letter to John Taylor, 1814

But Hey, Don't Hold Back.
"Numberless have been the systems of iniquity The most refined, sublime, extensive, and astonishing constitution of policy that ever was conceived by the mind of man was framed by the Romish clergy for the aggrandizement of their own Order They even persuaded mankind to believe, faithfully and undoubtingly, that God Almighty had entrusted them with the keys of heaven, whose gates they might open and close at pleasure ... with authority to license all sorts of sins and Crimes ... or withholding the rain of heaven and the beams of the sun; with the management of earthquakes, pestilence, and famine; nay, with the mysterious, awful, incomprehensible power of creating out of bread and wine the flesh and blood of God himself. All these opinions they were enabled to spread and rivet among the people by reducing their minds to a state of sordid ignorance and staring timidity, and by infusing into them a religious horror of letters and knowledge. Thus was human nature chained fast for ages in a cruel, shameful, and deplorable servitude....

Of all the nonsense and delusion which had ever passed through the mind of man, none had ever been more extravagant than the notions of absolutions, indelible characters, uninterrupted successions, and the rest of those fantastical ideas, derived from the canon law, which had thrown such a glare of mystery, sanctity, reverence, and right reverend eminence and holiness around the idea of a priest as no mortal could deserve ... the ridiculous fancies of sanctified effluvia from episcopal fingers."
-- John Adams, "A Dissertation on the Canon and the Feudal Law," printed in the Boston Gazette, August 1765

"The Church of Rome has made it an article of faith that no man can be saved out of their church, and all other religious sects approach this dreadful opinion in proportion to their ignorance, and the influence of ignorant or wicked priests."
-- John Adams, Diary and Autobiography

Primary Source of Quotations


Benjamin Franklin


"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
- Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard Price. October 9, 1790.

Pro

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, not so much to secure Religion itself, as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." (Benjamin Franklin, 1706-1790, American statesman, diplomat, scientist, and printer, from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...uotations.html

Con
"In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?....I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men." (Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Phaladelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention, May to September 1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126)

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up. Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:

Yet whether the Doctor had spoken from policy or from faith, his suggestion had been salutary, calling an assembly of doubting minds to a realization that destiny herself sat as guest and witness in this room. Franklin had made solemn reminder that a republic of thirteen united states - venture novel and daring - could not be achieved without mutual sacrifice and a summoning up of men's best, most difficult and most creative efforts. (Bowen, p. 127)
Quartz Hill School of Theology

A Parting Note.

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...."
(Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17.
Quartz Hill School of Theology


Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short


Regarding Government Meddling With Religion

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies."
--Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546

"It is proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed?... Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents."
--Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546


Regarding Religion Meddling with Government

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science."
--Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions, and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national aggression on our peace and faith."
--Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear, 1823. ME 15:434

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
--Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another."
--Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
--Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173

"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
--Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
--Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21


Regarding Criminal Acts

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error."
--Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order."
--Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration."
--Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547

Primary Source of Quotations


James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
--James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance


Regarding State Meddling with Church

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
--James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty"

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself."
--James Madison, Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform."
--James Madison, Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731.


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history."
--James Madison, 1820

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
--James Madison

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."
--James Madison, 1819

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
--James Madison, 1803

Sources
Little-Known U.S. Document Proclaims America's Government is Secular - The Early America Review, Summer 1997
Madison on church and state
http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...q_JMadison.htm


Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine.

Regarding State Meddling with Church

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. . . ."
---Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776


Regarding Church Meddling with State

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law."
--Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

"Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged."
--Thomas Paine


But Hey, Don't Hold Back.

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church."
--Thomas Paine, Excerpts from The Age of Reason: Selected Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
--Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?"
---Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood."
-- Thomas Paine


"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!"
-- Thomas Paine



Sources

Thomas Paine National Historical Association
http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html
Thomas Paine - Wikiquote
Thomas Paine National Historical Association
http://paganinfo.50g.com/quotes.htm

*****

Now. These are the primary Founding Fathers of the Constitution of the United States of America. There were other Founders who disagreed with them, but these guys won out on the issue of separation of Church and State.

 

[Hollie]

[MENTION=37754]Hollie[/MENTION]



Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)
Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

@ DriftingSand

Are you sure Jefferson is someone you falsely represent him to be?

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. "
-- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787


"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Now for the other side of the story. No cherry picking allowed.

In the 1790s, Thomas Jefferson, influenced by the writings of Joseph Priestly, seems to have adopted a more positive opinion of Christianity. In this letter to his friend Benjamin Rush, Jefferson asserted that he was a "Christian, in the only sense in which [Jesus] wished any one to be." In an attached syllabus, Jefferson compared the "merit of the doctrines of Jesus" with those of the classical philosophers and the Jews. Jefferson pronounced Jesus' doctrines, though "disfigured by the corruptions of schismatising followers" far superior to any competing system. Jefferson declined to consider the "question of [Jesus] being a member of the god-head, or in direct communication with it, claimed for him by some of his followers, and denied by others."

From the Library Of Congress: Religion and the Federal Government, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

So, we can finally agree that congress never had any bibles printed and that your representation as such was false and misleading.

 

[DriftingSand]

@ DriftingSand

Are you sure Jefferson is someone you falsely represent him to be?

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose. "
-- Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813


"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787


"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
-- Thomas Jefferson


"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
--Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Now for the other side of the story. No cherry picking allowed.


From the Library Of Congress: Religion and the Federal Government, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

So, we can finally agree that congress never had any bibles printed and that your representation as such was false and misleading.

Go back to the link in #172. The Library of Congress (I assume you know what that is) states that Congress "sponsored the publication of the Bible." It's as plain as day.

 

[DriftingSand]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible ...

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

 

[Hollie]

Now for the other side of the story. No cherry picking allowed.



From the Library Of Congress: Religion and the Federal Government, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

So, we can finally agree that congress never had any bibles printed and that your representation as such was false and misleading.

Go back to the link in #172. The Library of Congress (I assume you know what that is) states that Congress "sponsored the publication of the Bible." It's as plain as day.

Well, I can see you're scrambling to save your now-lost credibility as you realized your previous misrepresentation was exposed and you edited your post.

Now, read (I assume you know how to do that), what was already supplied to you:

"Philadelphia printer Robert Aitken (1734-1802) petitioned Congress to officially sanction a publication of the Old and New Testament which he was preparing at his own expense."

I posted the above v e r y slowly. Read it v e r y slowly.

If you need help, raise your hand.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It does the opposite. Have you read the gentleman's careful and objective rebuttal to Barton? Of course not.

Your type of attitude we dealt with at the school board in this manner: respectfully and dismissively.

If you want pseudo-history taught to your children, send them to a far right social conservative school.

'magine some far right scum, Ernie S., for example, who disagress.

They are looking to the past, so they have mortgaged their futurer.

They can't come back.

Have you already started sipping wine? You're not making any sense.

Not at all. Ernie S. is one of those who believe in the idea of Christ in America envangelical narratives. The LDS Mormons are superior at the crafting.

Yet that is not what the facts show. The Founders seperated Church and State so we would not have religious weirdos telling the rest of America how to live.

 

[DriftingSand]

Congress has the first Bible printed for the inhabitants of the USA and to be used in our schools.

Watch from :42 - 1:26. Then prove Barton wrong:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzGdHZDXxKI]U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton.flv - YouTube[/ame]

 

[DriftingSand]

'magine some far right scum, Ernie S., for example, who disagress.

They are looking to the past, so they have mortgaged their futurer.

They can't come back.

Have you already started sipping wine? You're not making any sense.

Not at all. Ernie S. is one of those who believe in the idea of Christ in America envangelical narratives. The LDS Mormons are superior at the crafting.

Yet that is not what the facts show. The Founders seperated Church and State so we would not have religious weirdos telling the rest of America how to live.

Does that mean that the founders expected non-religious "weirdos telling the rest of America how to live?" Goose/Gander.

 

[Hollie]

Congress appointed chaplains for itself and the armed forces, sponsored the publication of a Bible ...

Religion and the Congress of the Confederation - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

Using red color (and you should post with gargantuan fonts), does add melodrama but it doesn't prop-up your failed argument.

Why did you purposefully misrepresent that congress had bibles printed?

Further, you never did address what schools tactually received those bibles. Is that yet another claim to wish to retract?

May I suggest you try out for the U.S. Olympic swim team - the backstroke.

 

[Hollie]

Congress has the first Bible printed for the inhabitants of the USA and to be used in our schools.

Watch from :42 - 1:26. Then prove Barton wrong:

U.S. Capitol Tour with David Barton.flv - YouTube

Ah. A goofy youtube video to prop up your failed argument.

Your pal Barton isn't here to defend his comment. You are.

What schools actually received the bibles you falsely portrayed as being printed by congress.