CDZ What are you worth?

[rightwinger]

No, those things contribute to the overall wealth of a nation

Nothing contributes a damn thing to the wealth of a nation that isn't through individual productivity. Someone has to earn wealth through their talents, skills, expertise, wisdom or labor. It doesn't magically materialize. I already said that government can CONTRIBUTE to the individual creation of wealth, that's NOT what is being debated, and you can keep on trying to FORCE that to be the debate, I will not participate in nonsense.

You made the claim that the government does not create wealth....nothing can be further from the truth

Look at the island of Manhattan

The Government built an extensive subway system that allowed workers to move throughout a dense city. The city could not support a population of 8 million and all the businesses jammed onto a tiny island without a subway system to move them around. New York owes it wealth and power to the government that built harbors, bridges, tunnels, water systems, sewerage systems

 

[Boss]

You made the claim that the government does not create wealth....nothing can be further from the truth

Not in context of what I meant which I have explained twice to you already and you continue to ignore my context and apply your own. I can't make you understand my context and disregard your false context. All I can do is explain that you've taken my comment out of context and it's up to you to open your mind to that and accept it.

You continue to illustrate INDIRECT ways the government creates wealth for individuals or companies, or even themselves through taxation and regulation. That is NOT what I meant. Shall I repeat that a few more times to penetrate your granite-like cranium? The government doesn't produce products and services for profit. They do not DIRECTLY produce wealth. All of your glorious examples of NY harbors, bridges, tunnels and water systems were paid for by PEOPLE who paid taxes to government.

You, like most liberal progressives, think that Government is some sort of mystical magical money machine with an unlimited supply of money and wealth to shower upon us for whatever whim we conjure up. That's simply not reality in the universe we live in. The Government ONLY has resources it confiscates from us in the form of taxes and regulations, fees and fines, or tariffs on trade, etc. It also borrows and prints money... it does nothing to directly create wealth on it's own.

 

[Boss]

There is a quote I am reminded of from Dr. Walter E. Williams:

"Before free market capitalism, people gained wealth through looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. The creation of free market capitalism enabled people to gain wealth through service to their fellow man."

 

[rightwinger]

You made the claim that the government does not create wealth....nothing can be further from the truth

Not in context of what I meant which I have explained twice to you already and you continue to ignore my context and apply your own. I can't make you understand my context and disregard your false context. All I can do is explain that you've taken my comment out of context and it's up to you to open your mind to that and accept it.

You continue to illustrate INDIRECT ways the government creates wealth for individuals or companies, or even themselves through taxation and regulation. That is NOT what I meant. Shall I repeat that a few more times to penetrate your granite-like cranium? The government doesn't produce products and services for profit. They do not DIRECTLY produce wealth. All of your glorious examples of NY harbors, bridges, tunnels and water systems were paid for by PEOPLE who paid taxes to government.

You, like most liberal progressives, think that Government is some sort of mystical magical money machine with an unlimited supply of money and wealth to shower upon us for whatever whim we conjure up. That's simply not reality in the universe we live in. The Government ONLY has resources it confiscates from us in the form of taxes and regulations, fees and fines, or tariffs on trade, etc. It also borrows and prints money... it does nothing to directly create wealth on it's own.

You fail to realize that We the People created the Government. It does things to directly benefit the people. The Government IS the people or as Abraham Lincoln said ....Of the people, by the people and for the people

In that regard, the government generates tremendous wealth

Our whole Defense Industry is an example of the Government directly generating wealth. It does not exist without the Government

 

[Boss]

In that regard, the government generates tremendous wealth

No, the government doesn't generate ANY wealth. They can indirectly cause the creation of wealth by others, as in the case of the defense industry. But even there, they are expending wealth acquired from taxpayers. The taxpayers generated the wealth, not the government.

 

[rightwinger]

In that regard, the government generates tremendous wealth

No, the government doesn't generate ANY wealth. They can indirectly cause the creation of wealth by others, as in the case of the defense industry. But even there, they are expending wealth acquired from taxpayers. The taxpayers generated the wealth, not the government.

The government IS the taxpayers

 

[Boss]

You fail to realize that We the People created the Government.

No, I don't fail to realize that... YOU DO! I am telling you that government doesn't create a damn thing... people do! You are saying "government is the people" which I haven't argued. But you can't then say that government is creating wealth when it's the PEOPLE who are creating wealth in actuality. You've defeated your own argument.

 

[Boss]

The government IS the taxpayers

No, government is the people... not the taxpayers. If the government were ONLY the taxpayers, I doubt we'd have a $20 trillion debt and $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

 

[rightwinger]

You fail to realize that We the People created the Government.

No, I don't fail to realize that... YOU DO! I am telling you that government doesn't create a damn thing... people do! You are saying "government is the people" which I haven't argued. But you can't then say that government is creating wealth when it's the PEOPLE who are creating wealth in actuality. You've defeated your own argument.

One in the same

 

[rightwinger]

The government IS the taxpayers

No, government is the people... not the taxpayers. If the government were ONLY the taxpayers, I doubt we'd have a $20 trillion debt and $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

The Government was created by We the People in a document I like to call the constitution. You should read it some time

We have $20 trillion in debt because We the People are to lazy and selfish to realize we can't have low taxes and high benefits at the same time. But we elect representatives who offer it.

 

[Boss]

The Government was created by We the People in a document I like to call the constitution. You should read it some time

We have $20 trillion in debt because We the People are to lazy and selfish to realize we can't have low taxes and high benefits at the same time. But we elect representatives who offer it.

Now you are running away from your "government IS the taxpayer" statement. I guess you realized you were wrong? I have read the Constitution, I have a copy right here in front of me as we speak. I am a Constitutional Conservative who believes in the limited small government our founders established. We are a free market capitalist system that encourages (or is supposed to) free enterprise and private property ownership. This enables individuals to achieve wealth status through the means of voluntary commerce with their fellow man. All too often, government interferes with free market capitalism through regulation and taxation, fees, fines and tariffs. It is exploited by crony corporatists through political contributions to levy an advantage for themselves over their competition to the detriment of free market capitalism. The solution to this is certainly NOT more government. It is the opposite... less government.... more freedom of the individual.

When the people are allowed to create, to invent, to use the free market to serve their fellow man, we all prosper from that. Consumers receive products, goods and services they want and need. Individuals gain wealth and pay a nominal amount in taxes to fund general collective expenses outlined in the constitution. We do this to a greater degree than any nation that has ever existed and it has been enormously successful. Much to the chagrin of Marxist-Socialists who HATE this system and seek to destroy it by any means necessary so that they can retain the power and wealth for the oligarchy of their ruling class elite.

 

[rightwinger]

The Government was created by We the People in a document I like to call the constitution. You should read it some time

We have $20 trillion in debt because We the People are to lazy and selfish to realize we can't have low taxes and high benefits at the same time. But we elect representatives who offer it.

Now you are running away from your "government IS the taxpayer" statement. I guess you realized you were wrong? I have read the Constitution, I have a copy right here in front of me as we speak. I am a Constitutional Conservative who believes in the limited small government our founders established. We are a free market capitalist system that encourages (or is supposed to) free enterprise and private property ownership. This enables individuals to achieve wealth status through the means of voluntary commerce with their fellow man. All too often, government interferes with free market capitalism through regulation and taxation, fees, fines and tariffs. It is exploited by crony corporatists through political contributions to levy an advantage for themselves over their competition to the detriment of free market capitalism. The solution to this is certainly NOT more government. It is the opposite... less government.... more freedom of the individual.

When the people are allowed to create, to invent, to use the free market to serve their fellow man, we all prosper from that. Consumers receive products, goods and services they want and need. Individuals gain wealth and pay a nominal amount in taxes to fund general collective expenses outlined in the constitution. We do this to a greater degree than any nation that has ever existed and it has been enormously successful. Much to the chagrin of Marxist-Socialists who HATE this system and seek to destroy it by any means necessary so that they can retain the power and wealth for the oligarchy of their ruling class elite.

You still don't understand that "We the People" stuff

After I told you to read the Constitution. Our Constitution says nothing about a "limited small government"
That is in your imagination

You only oppose the government getting involved in free market capitalism when they are standing up for the rights of We the People

When Government is bending over to protect capitalists you are all for it

 

[320 Years of History]

Federal Government Corporations: An Overview

 

[Boss]

The Government was created by We the People in a document I like to call the constitution. You should read it some time

We have $20 trillion in debt because We the People are to lazy and selfish to realize we can't have low taxes and high benefits at the same time. But we elect representatives who offer it.

Now you are running away from your "government IS the taxpayer" statement. I guess you realized you were wrong? I have read the Constitution, I have a copy right here in front of me as we speak. I am a Constitutional Conservative who believes in the limited small government our founders established. We are a free market capitalist system that encourages (or is supposed to) free enterprise and private property ownership. This enables individuals to achieve wealth status through the means of voluntary commerce with their fellow man. All too often, government interferes with free market capitalism through regulation and taxation, fees, fines and tariffs. It is exploited by crony corporatists through political contributions to levy an advantage for themselves over their competition to the detriment of free market capitalism. The solution to this is certainly NOT more government. It is the opposite... less government.... more freedom of the individual.

When the people are allowed to create, to invent, to use the free market to serve their fellow man, we all prosper from that. Consumers receive products, goods and services they want and need. Individuals gain wealth and pay a nominal amount in taxes to fund general collective expenses outlined in the constitution. We do this to a greater degree than any nation that has ever existed and it has been enormously successful. Much to the chagrin of Marxist-Socialists who HATE this system and seek to destroy it by any means necessary so that they can retain the power and wealth for the oligarchy of their ruling class elite.

You still don't understand that "We the People" stuff

After I told you to read the Constitution. Our Constitution says nothing about a "limited small government"
That is in your imagination

You only oppose the government getting involved in free market capitalism when they are standing up for the rights of We the People

When Government is bending over to protect capitalists you are all for it

I understand "we the people" stuff. Our constitution most certainly does outline a limited government with enumerated power, leaving all additional power to the people and states respectively... it's specifically written into the constitution as such.

I do not oppose the government overseeing free market capitalism to ensure public safety, protection of the consumer or the environment and fair trade policies. I DO oppose government power being exploited by crony corporatists who essentially bribe politicians through political donations to leverage the power of government so they have an unfair advantage over small businesses. Obamacare is a classic example of just that. It was written by the insurance and pharmaceutical lobby and they benefit tremendously at the cost of the consumer who is no longer free to participate in free market capitalism. There are many other examples of government propping up big corporations who've donated to various politicians for favors. All of this has a detrimental and devastating effect on free market capitalism, small businesses and free enterprise.

 

[Wilbur Right]

There are many other examples of government propping up big corporations who've donated to various politicians for favors. All of this has a detrimental and devastating effect on free market capitalism, small businesses and free enterprise.

You don't like plutocrats being plutocrats? Why? We live in a plutocracy. Govt of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. You don't like that plutocrats look out for other plutocrats?

 

[Wilbur Right]

s. I DO oppose government power being exploited by crony corporatists who essentially bribe politicians through political donations to leverage the power of government so they have an unfair advantage over small businesses

That's great you oppose what you describe. Greater yet would be the "how" to stop what you describe. Plutocrats have worked hard to put in place the system we now have.

How would you dismantle their system?

 

[320 Years of History]

We live in a plutocracy. Govt of the rich, by the rich, for the rich.

That's something that a lot of folks just don't get. When the founders said "government of, by and for the people," all they were really after was a nation run by the rich folks in the nation rather than by the monarch and his vassals, all of whose positions and power were a matter of birthright rather than personal accomplishment. The people whom they had in mind were not, however, just any old "Tom, Dick or Harry" who has never accomplished much of anything short of managing to not yet fall dead.

 

[Wilbur Right]

That's something that a lot of folks just don't get.

Do you believe we live in a plutocracy as I described it; govt of the rich, by the rich, for the rich?

 

[Wilbur Right]

When the founders said "government of, by and for the people,

Are you thinking they "forgot" to include the word "rich". As in " government of, by and for the rich people.

They didn't want women to vote. Would have preferred only land owners vote. Sounds like rich people to me.

 

[rightwinger]

The Government was created by We the People in a document I like to call the constitution. You should read it some time

We have $20 trillion in debt because We the People are to lazy and selfish to realize we can't have low taxes and high benefits at the same time. But we elect representatives who offer it.

Now you are running away from your "government IS the taxpayer" statement. I guess you realized you were wrong? I have read the Constitution, I have a copy right here in front of me as we speak. I am a Constitutional Conservative who believes in the limited small government our founders established. We are a free market capitalist system that encourages (or is supposed to) free enterprise and private property ownership. This enables individuals to achieve wealth status through the means of voluntary commerce with their fellow man. All too often, government interferes with free market capitalism through regulation and taxation, fees, fines and tariffs. It is exploited by crony corporatists through political contributions to levy an advantage for themselves over their competition to the detriment of free market capitalism. The solution to this is certainly NOT more government. It is the opposite... less government.... more freedom of the individual.

When the people are allowed to create, to invent, to use the free market to serve their fellow man, we all prosper from that. Consumers receive products, goods and services they want and need. Individuals gain wealth and pay a nominal amount in taxes to fund general collective expenses outlined in the constitution. We do this to a greater degree than any nation that has ever existed and it has been enormously successful. Much to the chagrin of Marxist-Socialists who HATE this system and seek to destroy it by any means necessary so that they can retain the power and wealth for the oligarchy of their ruling class elite.

You still don't understand that "We the People" stuff

After I told you to read the Constitution. Our Constitution says nothing about a "limited small government"
That is in your imagination

You only oppose the government getting involved in free market capitalism when they are standing up for the rights of We the People

When Government is bending over to protect capitalists you are all for it

I understand "we the people" stuff. Our constitution most certainly does outline a limited government with enumerated power, leaving all additional power to the people and states respectively... it's specifically written into the constitution as such.

I do not oppose the government overseeing free market capitalism to ensure public safety, protection of the consumer or the environment and fair trade policies. I DO oppose government power being exploited by crony corporatists who essentially bribe politicians through political donations to leverage the power of government so they have an unfair advantage over small businesses. Obamacare is a classic example of just that. It was written by the insurance and pharmaceutical lobby and they benefit tremendously at the cost of the consumer who is no longer free to participate in free market capitalism. There are many other examples of government propping up big corporations who've donated to various politicians for favors. All of this has a detrimental and devastating effect on free market capitalism, small businesses and free enterprise.

Right now, our government is in the pocket of crony capitalists. They give token protection for the rights of We the People.

We need government to do more, not less to protect the people