What do normal people, think of the Palestinians?

[Dogmaphobe]

Let's do Leviticus.

I've got a better idea.

Let's compare apples to apples, instead.

Mo the murderous war lord vs Jesus the pacifist.

 

[cnm]

Ah. Suddenly it's not Arabs vs Jews. Funny that.

 

[cnm]

It is amusing. Verses that can't be discussed and borders that can't be revealed.

 

[Roudy]

Israel has borders. Arabs know exactly where they are.

But you can't tell me where they are. Those sorts of borders.

Like I told you, try crossing them Abdul, and you'll see what happens to donkeys like you. Many Arab armies have failed.

 

[Roudy]

Does anybody know the borders of this Palestinian state that never existed in history? Ha ha ha ha.

 

[theliq]

Does anybody know the borders of this Palestinian state that never existed in history? Ha ha ha ha.

Stop contradicting yourself Roudy

 

[Roudy]

Does anybody know the borders of this Palestinian state that never existed in history? Ha ha ha ha.

Stop contradicting yourself Roudy

How about this, give me the borders of this so called Arab Muslim country of Palestine that the Jews stole before 1948. Let's go, that should be easy, no?

 

[cnm]

Look, if you're too paranoid to give us Israel's borders we understand. Can't be too careful about secret borders.

 

[Coyote]

...He's been reading the Koran too much. Turns them into animals.

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Qur’an 9:29-Fight against Christians and Jews ”until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.”

Qur’an (2:65-66) Christians and Jews must believe what Allah has revealed to Muhammad or Allah will disfigure their faces or turn them into apes.

Qur’an 3:67 ”Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was a true Muslim, surrendered to Allah (which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.”

Qur’an 2:191-2-Kill disbelievers wherever you find them.

Qur’an 9:7-9-Don’t make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted.

I cannot imagine Jesus of Nazareth spewing filth like that...

Why would Jesus say that about his own people and religion?

Gotta go longer and more generic than that, Roudy... a peace-loving type like Jesus would probably not have said such a thing about anybody, based upon his M.O.

Muhammed (Peanut butter and jelly Be Upon Him), on the other hand, was a bloodthirsty pedophile who perverted the vision of an all-loving, all-forgiving godhead into something savage and hateful, and the ignorant goal-buggerers of Arabia bought into it hook, line and sinker.

He was not a pedophile nor was he particularly blood thirsty. He was a man of his times and preached a pretty good message for his times. It's worthwhile to read a good biography of him and the history of the era. Otherwise, you sound just like Haissem.

 

[RoccoR]

cnm, et al,

Understanding that, in part, the border dispute constitutes the basis for the overall territorial dispute. The two parties (Israel and the Palestinians) disagree on the matter.

Look, if you're too paranoid to give us Israel's borders we understand. Can't be too careful about secret borders.

(COMMENT)

Remember, that unlike the Israelis, the Palestinians have an incoherent government with mixed views. Different factions have different views. Unlike any mature government, there is no one single voice that expresses the "official position of the Palestinian People. Here are the two main competing views:

HAMAS says that they are liberating Palestine. In this context Palestine is meant [2013' major position paper for Hamas (Author: Khaled Meshal)] as:

1. Palestine from the river to the sea, and from north to south, is a land of the Palestinian people and its homeland and its legitimate right, we may not a waiver an inch or any part thereof, no matter what the reasons and circumstances and pressures.

2. Palestine - all of Palestine - is a land of Islamic and Arab affiliation, a blessed sacred land, that has a major portion in the heart of every Arab and Muslim

3. No recognition of the legitimacy of the occupation whatever; this is a principled position, political and moral, and therefore do not recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and recognition of "Israel" and the legitimacy of its presence on any part of Palestine no matter how long; nand it will not be long, God willing.​

The PLO Negotiations Affairs Department (NAD) was established in 1994 in Gaza in order to follow up on the implementation of the Interim Agreement (AKA: The Oslo Accords) signed between Israel and the PLO.

Key Facts​

• • • The 1967 border is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the oPt.
    • A basic principle of international law is that no state may acquire territory by force. Israel has no valid claim to any part of the territory it occupied in 1967.
    • The international community does not recognize Israeli sovereignty over any part of the oPt, including East Jerusalem.

Borders:

Israel has no valid claim to any part of the West Bank or Gaza Strip. However, in the interest of peace, we have been willing to discuss minor, equitable, and mutually-agreed territorial exchanges should we decide that it is in our interest to do so.​

International Law says: "Every State has the duty to refrain from the threat or use of force to violate the existing international boundaries of another State or as a means of solving international disputes, including territorial disputes and problems concerning frontiers of States." (A/RES/25/2625)

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Kondor3]

Look, if you're too paranoid to give us Israel's borders we understand. Can't be too careful about secret borders.

Secret, hell...

Here you go...

Everything in White is Israel.

Everything in deep-yellow-orange is Palestine.

Why?

Because Israel says so.

Its authoritative basis?

Clear enough?

Open enough?

Honest enough?

Now, if you have a problem with that, you may file a complaint at the nearest IDF military installation.

 

[Kondor3]

He was not a pedophile nor was he particularly blood thirsty. He was a man of his times and preached a pretty good message for his times. It's worthwhile to read a good biography of him and the history of the era. Otherwise, you sound just like Haissem.

All legitimately debatable.

He was a being of very common clay, and caused great mischief in the world, with his hallucinatory, knock-off, copy-cat religion, with an original and violence-prone perverse twist, originally marketed to aggressive, ignorant pagan Arab tribal folk.

 

[Coyote]

He was not a pedophile nor was he particularly blood thirsty. He was a man of his times and preached a pretty good message for his times. It's worthwhile to read a good biography of him and the history of the era. Otherwise, you sound just like Haissem.

All legitimately debatable.

He was a being of very common clay, and caused great mischief in the world, with his hallucinatory, knock-off, copy-cat religion, with an original and violence-prone perverse twist, originally marketed to aggressive, ignorant pagan Arab tribal folk.

His religion was no more a "knock off" or "copy cat" religion than any other but the claim seems to have become an "accepted" bashing. Christianity, Judaism, Islam are built upon older faiths faiths, reincarnations of something more ancient. As for hallucinatory...well...seriously now....we have prophets who recieve the words of a diety through incendiary shrubbery, a zombie prophet who claimed to be a son of God....Hallucinatory Experience Religion Formation Issue 91 Philosophy Now.

Violence? Christ preached peace, but threatened violence (or at least those that wrote about him after death inserted lots of God's wrath for not following orders)...the Jews were hardly pacifists in their hey day -- look the OT, or at the Maccabees, who expanded Judea by conquest (how is that different than Mohammed's conquest of Arabia?).

Thing is - it's become politically correct to bash Islam on events that were typical of the era in which it sprung and conveniently ignore the history of the other religions.

Can you think of ANY prophets that didn't hallucinate? They're an odd bunch, you have to admit

 

[Roudy]

Biggest problem is that there were two Mohammad's. The first, in Mecca, before his rise to power was more conciliatory and less violent. However that was not the case in Medina, after he became powerful Most of what he said and did in Medina (and afterwards) are in direct contradiction to what he preached in Mecca.

The Two Faces of Mohammad

According to Mr. Goldmann, Muhammad as ruler of Medina had a strikingly different character than when he was the prophet of Mecca. The Quranic verses he penned in Mecca often contradict the verses he wrote in Medina. Let us compare the two Muhammads and the two Qurans. The following numbered examples are paraphrases of points in Goldmann's book. My commentaries on the numbered statements are in parentheses.

Mecca versus Medina

(1) In Mecca, Muhammad preached and exhorted people to submit to Islam. In Medina, he used the threat of the sword to compel people to convert to Islam.

(According to the Medina verses, Allah accepts converts who do not believe in him inwardly, but will kneel to him outwardly under threat of death. Muhammad did not have this view of Allah until he became a war lord and used force to compel people to accept his rule.)

(2) In Mecca, Muhammad led the life of a teacher and prophet and followed disciplines of prayer, fasting, and worship. In Medina, he was the political ruler and the military commander. During his ten years in Medina, he personally led 27 military attacks. Prior to his death, he conquered most of the Arabian peninsula.

(The Allah of Medina allowed his prophet to be a warlord seeking military conquest. In like manner, he encourages Muslim leaders to spread the religion of Islam by the sword--which they did on an epic scale after the death of Muhammad. The conquests continued until the Muslims met those with stronger armies, or they outran their supply lines. The Muslims eventually conquered about 50% of the Christian world--the eastern Mediterranean lands, the Middle East, and North Africa--and gradually extinguished most of the Christian testimony in those lands.)

(The Westward rush of conquest was halted exactly a century after Muhammad's death. The Muslim army in Spain attacked Gaul [France] and was defeated by Charles the Hammer at the battle of Tours [732 A.D.]. Muslims subsequently switched to expansion through proselytizing and mercantile colonies. However, when new Muslim nations arose with great armies [e.g., Seljuk Turks, Ottoman Turks, and Moguls], they reverted to the expansion of Islam through conquest. The Ottoman Turks conquered the remains of the Christian Byzantine Empire and took Constantinople in 1453. They attacked Europe from the east in 1529 and 1683, and both times were stopped at the gates of Vienna by European armies. Three times [732, 1529 & 1683], Christian civilization in Europe came close to extinction from invading Muslim armies.)

(3) In Mecca, Muhammad had one wife. During his last ten years of his life at Medina, he married twelve more women.

(The poor family man of Mecca became the wealthy, voluptuous sheik with a harem of "wives" in Medina. Polygamy and harem culture debases women and makes men hedonistic and narcissistic. Societies that sanction polygamy, harems, and concubines have always assigned a low status to women.)

(The Medina Quran's heaven for men is a garden paradise where every male sensual pleasure is catered to by nubile nymphs--just as every sensual pleasure of Muhammad, as the voluptuous sheik of a harem, was indulged. The Medina Allah is a God for men. Goldmann says Muslim women have a hard time getting into paradise.)

(4) In Mecca, Muhammad fought against idol worship. In doing so, he exempted Christians and Jews from his proscriptions and persecutions and respected them as "people of the book." In Medina, he persecuted Christians and Jews as infidels.

(Christians and Jews in Islamic countries never know when they will be protected and respected or persecuted and reviled. The situation is often fluid so that protection can suddenly gives way to persecution. Historically, the best Christians and Jews can hope for under Muslim rule is second class citizenship and heavy taxes from which Muslims are exempt. When jihad and war lord sensibilities were in the air, Christians and Jews often faced forced conversion, banishment, slavery, sexual bondage, or death.)

......American universities often teach the Meccan face of Islamic law and are mute about the Medinian warlord version. Islam is a Janus mask of two faces. To teach about only one of the faces is to deceive the students.

.....a Muslim has no problem saying that Allah changes his mind. Goldmann has often heard Muslims say, "Allah can change his mind, because he is Allah and can do anything He wants."

Christians believe that God's laws, commands, revelations, and actions are expressions of his character and that God never acts in ways that are inconsistent with his character. Therefore, we can learn about God's character by studying and obeying his law and learning his truth. Furthermore, the universal moral law is written on men's hearts, so that the laws of God ring true in the human conscience.

Muslims generally believe that Allah is unknowable. He does not reveal his character to man, but only reveals his commands. According to the warlord version of Islam from Medina, Allah's commands express his arbitrary will and do not express a universal moral law that lines up with his character or with his nature. It is Allah's will that makes a thing right or wrong. One must learn by rote the things Allah declared by fiat to find out what is right or wrong. Reason and conscience are of no help in understanding arbitrary law that demands perfunctory obedience.

Medinian legalism is followed lock-step by Islamo-fascist regimes like the Taliban. They have used Muslim legalism to produce the most cruel and dismal way of life imaginable. This path of misery is what they wish to impose on others by force. The ideal society of Muslim extremists is everyone else's hell.

The kind of legalism that Goldmann describes inevitably must lead to certain oppressive effects on the human condition:

(1) If one is to follow the mountain of edicts in sharia law, every conceivable word and deed must conform to some cookbook formula. If such a life is achievable--and it not clear that it is--one will increasingly resemble a programmed automaton with a frowning face. The dark jihadist glower comes from a life reduced to being a mere mechanism of arbitrary law. Such a one often responds with hatred toward those who manifest free and authentic life--for real life exposes the emptiness of what some would consider a living death. The only compensations for the life of sharia darkness are the delusions of self-righteousness, the illusions of control, and the superficial consolations of community solidarity. These three vicious deceptions nourish human cruelty.

(2) The commands of the Allah of Medina are arbitrary and disconnected from a universal moral law, or a natural law. The Medinian Muslim has no joy in obedience, unlike the Jew who delights in the laws of God because of the law reveals precious truth, delightful beauty, venerable justice, and moral magnificence. The Jew finds in the laws of God the universal moral law written in his heart. In contrast, the joyless obedience of the Medinian Muslim produces a heavy heart and a sense of futility.

(3) Obedience is a matter of routine, perfunctory outward cookbook conformity to rules, forms, and rites. The Medinian Muslim is not required to like these duties, or nourish goodness in his heart as he does them. He is not obliged to understand the spirit of the law or even agree with it. If he disagrees but obeys and keeps his mouth shut, he is acceptable to Allah.

 

[cnm]

Understanding that, in part, the border dispute constitutes the basis for the overall territorial dispute. The two parties (Israel and the Palestinians) disagree on the matter.

So where does Israel say its borders are?

Oops, sorry, forgot.

Secret, right.

 

[cnm]

All legitimately debatable.

He was a being of very common clay, and caused great mischief in the world, with his hallucinatory, knock-off, copy-cat religion, with an original and violence-prone perverse twist, originally marketed to aggressive, ignorant pagan Arab tribal folk.

Smith?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

His religion was no more a "knock off" or "copy cat" religion than any other but the claim seems to have become an "accepted" bashing. Christianity, Judaism, Islam are built upon older faiths faiths, reincarnations of something more ancient. As for hallucinatory...well...seriously now....we have prophets who recieve the words of a diety through incendiary shrubbery, a zombie prophet who claimed to be a son of God....Hallucinatory Experience Religion Formation Issue 91 Philosophy Now.

Violence? Christ preached peace, but threatened violence (or at least those that wrote about him after death inserted lots of God's wrath for not following orders)...the Jews were hardly pacifists in their hey day -- look the OT, or at the Maccabees, who expanded Judea by conquest (how is that different than Mohammed's conquest of Arabia?).

Thing is - it's become politically correct to bash Islam on events that were typical of the era in which it sprung and conveniently ignore the history of the other religions.

Can you think of ANY prophets that didn't hallucinate? They're an odd bunch, you have to admit

"Politically correct?" Is that what CAIR tells you to say because you have once again indulged in a dishonest brand of Orwellian Newspeak where you attempt to create definitions of terms in diametrical opposition to their actual meaning. Political correctness is the fundamentalism of the useful idiot portion of the left that goes out of its way to DEFEND anything associated with Islam.

Good try at your usual subterfuge, but no dice.

 

[cnm]

Secret, hell...

Here you go...



Everything in White is Israel.

Everything in deep-yellow-orange is Palestine.

Why?

Because Israel says so.

Its authoritative basis?




Clear enough?

Open enough?

Honest enough?

Not at all, it's like the secret roads in the WB. Where does Israel say that? All I see is an apologist making assertions.

Israel's borders are too secret for Israel to define them.

Though I may be wrong about that, and those are Israel's stated borders, in which case apartheid rules, ok.

 

[Roudy]

Understanding that, in part, the border dispute constitutes the basis for the overall territorial dispute. The two parties (Israel and the Palestinians) disagree on the matter.

So where does Israel say its borders are?

Oops, sorry, forgot.

Secret, right.

Arab nations seem to know where the borders are. That's why they don't cross them.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

Gotta go longer and more generic than that, Roudy... a peace-loving type like Jesus would probably not have said such a thing about anybody, based upon his M.O.

Muhammed (Peanut butter and jelly Be Upon Him), on the other hand, was a bloodthirsty pedophile who perverted the vision of an all-loving, all-forgiving godhead into something savage and hateful, and the ignorant goal-buggerers of Arabia bought into it hook, line and sinker.

I don't think it is quite accurate to call the murderous war lord a pedophile. It's not like he didn't enjoy having sex with children, mind you, but more that he would have sex with anything with a vagina. Pedophiles are attracted to children for being children, whereas Mohammad had older chattel in his stable as well.