What human cost is acceptable in controling illegal immigration?

[JoeB131]

I have a plan to build the border wall quickly and cheaply:

1). Our Army invades Mexico and steals all the materials and resources needed to make it while killing any drug lords or Federales they see.
2). Take all the illegal aliens arrested at the border and elsewhere and put them to work building the wall as repayment for their crime.
3). When finished, deport them back to Mexico free people, their crimes served.
4). Cut off all ties and end all trade with Mexico and tell them they can keep their money, people and trade now. They don't owe us a thing.

5.) Germany gets to announce, "We aren't the world's most despised nation anymore! Yeah!!!!"

The sad thing isn't what Trump does, it's the unnecessary anger of his supporters.

 

[Kondor3]

I don't want us shooting women and children coming across the border illegally, but...

Barring that...

Damned-near anything goes, as an 'acceptable cost', in controlling Illegal Immigration...

Controlling our own borders and the nature and quantity of the people coming-in, in this Post-Large-Scale-Immigration Age, are existential matters.

I choose myself, and my family, and my fellow countrymen, and their culture, and their future, over uncontrolled tidal waves of Illegal Aliens trespassing upon our soil.

 

[JoeB131]

I don't want us shooting women and children coming across the border illegally, but...

Barring that...

Damned-near anything goes, as an 'acceptable cost', in controlling Illegal Immigration...

Controlling our own borders and the nature and quantity of the people coming-in, in this Post-Large-Scale-Immigration Age, are existential matters.

Guy, if our existence is threatened by the 3% of the population that is undocumented, then our shit was pretty weak to start with.

The reason why we have undocumented workers is because we as a society WANT them to do the unpleasant jobs Americans don't want to do.

I choose myself, and my family, and my fellow countrymen, over uncontrolled tidal waves of Illegal Aliens trespassing upon our soil.

again, not seeing the threat to you, your family or your countrymen presented by undocumented laborers...

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Guy, if our existence is threatened by the 3% of the population that is undocumented, then our shit was pretty weak to start with.

The reason why we have undocumented workers is because we as a society WANT them to do the unpleasant jobs Americans don't want to do.

Americans will do anything for the right price. You bought that bullshit hook, line, and sinker.

again, not seeing the threat to you, your family or your countrymen presented by undocumented laborers...

They keep pay scales lower. As long as industry can find cheap labor, there is no reason to make better offers to Americans.

 

[Kondor3]

I don't want us shooting women and children coming across the border illegally, but...

Barring that...

Damned-near anything goes, as an 'acceptable cost', in controlling Illegal Immigration...

Controlling our own borders and the nature and quantity of the people coming-in, in this Post-Large-Scale-Immigration Age, are existential matters.

Guy, if our existence is threatened by the 3% of the population that is undocumented, then our shit was pretty weak to start with.

The reason why we have undocumented workers is because we as a society WANT them to do the unpleasant jobs Americans don't want to do.

I choose myself, and my family, and my fellow countrymen, over uncontrolled tidal waves of Illegal Aliens trespassing upon our soil.

again, not seeing the threat to you, your family or your countrymen presented by undocumented laborers...

Yes... it is quite obvious that you not see the threat... leave that to others... your bunch is on the sidelines now for a while.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

His life is much worse than it was before, and he knew that getting in: being followed everywhere by the SS, living that way for the rest of his life, enemies possibly targeting him for execution.

What person other than one that loves his country so much would make such sacrifices given the life he had before becoming President?

You people can't give this guy any credit no matter what he does. It's senseless to discuss it with your preconceived opinion about him. It doesn't matter what he says or does. He's even given up every paycheck since taking the job, and you can't even give him credit for that.

Hate brings out the worst in people, that's one thing we've learned from liberals in this country.

Worse. I doubt that. He is making money as never before. Trump in his own words says he lives for the fight. He sees himself as a gladiator, fighting not the for the nation but for himself, something he has been doing for many years before he ran for president.

The Presidency has just given him a bigger platform and more clout. Presidents typically ignore most criticism from other politician and the media, refusing to stoop to petty name calling and personal attacks, but not Trump. Go low, and Trump will go lower.

/——-/ Yeah, we see how you libtards take the high road when referencing President Trump. Calling him Hitler and Orange Clown 24/7 is very uplifting. Trouble is, someone hits Trump - he hits back. You prefer the old days when Republicans just rolled over and played dead.

I certainly have no objection to a president defending his policies when they are attacked. In fact, I expect it.

However, what Trump is doing is launching personal attacks in answer to criticism of his policy and his actions as president. By not defending his actions and resorting to mean spirited personal attacks he makes himself and the presidency look inept and weak.

Trump supporters love to see the president fight back because they see it as an act of courage but in reality it's Trump trivializing the presidency. One of the hardest things for a president is to keep his mouth shut and ignore taunts and focus on what is really important.

Trump has looked for conflict where it is not, created it where it does not exist. No target is too small, petty or unpresidential. Where most leaders take to heart Teddy Roosevelt quote, "Speak softly and carry a big stick', Trump seems to be totally oblivious.

And that's what we love about him. That's besides the fact that if you leave Trump alone, chances are he'll leave you alone. Hit Trump, and he hits back only harder.

Hitting back and hitting back harder can certainly work in a campaign but it's not the way to win as president. Sure, it will get the oohs and ahhs of supporters with blood in their eyes for all that oppose their man, but it will work against the president the longer he is office.

Donald Trump lives by the advice he dispensed in his best-selling business book The Art of the Deal: “Fight Back — always hit back against critics and adversaries, even if it looks bad.” He has run his campaign under the banner of “You hit me, I hit you back twice as hard.” But how well does that work as president?

Trump's philosophy works quite well when making real estate deals with people he will never have to deal with again and celebrates who he chooses not to work with. However, the president does not have those options. The very people he insults today will be the people he has to work with tomorrow. Does anyone believe John McCain is not going to do everything he can, even from his death bed to get back at Trump, or "Rocket Man", who has an ego as big Trump's and no tolerance for ridicule is not going stab Trump and the US in back at first opportunity.

Successful political deals depend on all parties walking away feeling they are winners or at least they have won something. However, that is not the Trump philosophy which explains why he's unable to strike deals with congressional leaders.

Trump claimed he had an agreement with North Korea, NATO, Canada, France etc when there was no deal at all. Trump is totally out of his depth in negotiating international political deals because they are never zero sum deals, depend on faith and trust the in the deal maker, and there is a clear understanding how each side benefits.

Trump is doing fine internationally even with his vengeance. Our foes look back and say "He's not like Ears, he's nobody to F with."

Congress and actually our entire federal government is like a private club membership only. Somebody walked into the club uninvited and not only took a seat, but the best seat in the establishment. It's not supposed to work that way. It's supposed to work like you start from the bottom, work your way up, make dirty deals along the way, and maybe we'll let you into the club and show you how it all works.

The people who hate Trump will hate him no matter what he does, and the people that think he's onto something will support him all the way. It's my hope that the RNC is playing close attention to the kind of party we would like to see; one where guts matters and bullshit walks; one where you get the things done (or attempt to get the things done) that you promised; one that tells the media where to shove it because they think they are the rulers of the land.

 

[JoeB131]

Americans will do anything for the right price. You bought that bullshit hook, line, and sinker.

I would consider most of that work beneath me, no matter what you offered.

They keep pay scales lower. As long as industry can find cheap labor, there is no reason to make better offers to Americans.

You mean other than they can follow instructions better.

Here's the thing. I've worked in manufacturing. ON the assembly lines, three different companies, all I saw was immigrants (documented). White guys were just not lining up for those jobs. In fact, the only white guy I ever saw on the line was a kind of a creepy guy and after they fire him, they put security locks up everywhere so he couldn't get back in.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes... it is quite obvious that you not see the threat... leave that to others... your bunch is on the sidelines now for a while.

Guy, you can't keep cheating your way into office... You actually have to get a majority to vote for you at some point if you want to keep policy making today.

Trump's a fraud, which is why he's getting nothing done.

 

[Kondor3]

Yes... it is quite obvious that you not see the threat... leave that to others... your bunch is on the sidelines now for a while.

Guy, you can't keep cheating your way into office... You actually have to get a majority to vote for you at some point if you want to keep policy making today.

Trump's a fraud, which is why he's getting nothing done.

Oh, Trump's a fraud, alright, and talks out of both sides of his mouth... but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the threat posed by 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You mean other than they can follow instructions better.

Here's the thing. I've worked in manufacturing. ON the assembly lines, three different companies, all I saw was immigrants (documented). White guys were just not lining up for those jobs. In fact, the only white guy I ever saw on the line was a kind of a creepy guy and after they fire him, they put security locks up everywhere so he couldn't get back in.

Oh, well that settles it. You knew one guy........

Let me tell you, when getting loaded or unloaded at a busy company, we drivers often have BS sessions. The subject of foreign drivers always makes it to the table. These guys are terrible drivers, dangerous, and irritating to boot. We laugh at how many times we are approached by some stupid foreigner because he doesn't know how to back in a trailer, and is begging for help.

I have no idea HTF these guys got here or how they passed a CDL test to get their license, but they are here, and they are working for peanuts which is why their employer doesn't care how long it takes them.

As long as they can pull these people right off the boat and give them work, there is no reason to hire good quality American drivers that understand the Fn language and can drive safely because they can read highway signs.

 

[Flopper]

Worse. I doubt that. He is making money as never before. Trump in his own words says he lives for the fight. He sees himself as a gladiator, fighting not the for the nation but for himself, something he has been doing for many years before he ran for president.

The Presidency has just given him a bigger platform and more clout. Presidents typically ignore most criticism from other politician and the media, refusing to stoop to petty name calling and personal attacks, but not Trump. Go low, and Trump will go lower.

/——-/ Yeah, we see how you libtards take the high road when referencing President Trump. Calling him Hitler and Orange Clown 24/7 is very uplifting. Trouble is, someone hits Trump - he hits back. You prefer the old days when Republicans just rolled over and played dead.

I certainly have no objection to a president defending his policies when they are attacked. In fact, I expect it.

However, what Trump is doing is launching personal attacks in answer to criticism of his policy and his actions as president. By not defending his actions and resorting to mean spirited personal attacks he makes himself and the presidency look inept and weak.

Trump supporters love to see the president fight back because they see it as an act of courage but in reality it's Trump trivializing the presidency. One of the hardest things for a president is to keep his mouth shut and ignore taunts and focus on what is really important.

Trump has looked for conflict where it is not, created it where it does not exist. No target is too small, petty or unpresidential. Where most leaders take to heart Teddy Roosevelt quote, "Speak softly and carry a big stick', Trump seems to be totally oblivious.

And that's what we love about him. That's besides the fact that if you leave Trump alone, chances are he'll leave you alone. Hit Trump, and he hits back only harder.

Hitting back and hitting back harder can certainly work in a campaign but it's not the way to win as president. Sure, it will get the oohs and ahhs of supporters with blood in their eyes for all that oppose their man, but it will work against the president the longer he is office.

Donald Trump lives by the advice he dispensed in his best-selling business book The Art of the Deal: “Fight Back — always hit back against critics and adversaries, even if it looks bad.” He has run his campaign under the banner of “You hit me, I hit you back twice as hard.” But how well does that work as president?

Trump's philosophy works quite well when making real estate deals with people he will never have to deal with again and celebrates who he chooses not to work with. However, the president does not have those options. The very people he insults today will be the people he has to work with tomorrow. Does anyone believe John McCain is not going to do everything he can, even from his death bed to get back at Trump, or "Rocket Man", who has an ego as big Trump's and no tolerance for ridicule is not going stab Trump and the US in back at first opportunity.

Successful political deals depend on all parties walking away feeling they are winners or at least they have won something. However, that is not the Trump philosophy which explains why he's unable to strike deals with congressional leaders.

Trump claimed he had an agreement with North Korea, NATO, Canada, France etc when there was no deal at all. Trump is totally out of his depth in negotiating international political deals because they are never zero sum deals, depend on faith and trust the in the deal maker, and there is a clear understanding how each side benefits.

/——/ How can you declare those deals are dead? Let the man finish negotiating before you pick and choose winners and losers

He's not negotiating anything because he doesn't understand the issues much less the geopolitical factors, the cultures, and goals of all the players. The Trump roll in negotiations will be exactly what you saw in the NK talks, two heads of state speaking in generalities and making polite overtures, leaving the negotiations to professions who hopefully know what they're doing.

 

[Flopper]

I don't want us shooting women and children coming across the border illegally, but...

Barring that...

Damned-near anything goes, as an 'acceptable cost', in controlling Illegal Immigration...

Controlling our own borders and the nature and quantity of the people coming-in, in this Post-Large-Scale-Immigration Age, are existential matters.

I choose myself, and my family, and my fellow countrymen, and their culture, and their future, over uncontrolled tidal waves of Illegal Aliens trespassing upon our soil.

Despite all Trump's praises of how well he's doing catching illegal immigrants at our southern border, the Homeland Security Data tells a different story.

From October 1, 2017 to June 30, 2018 there were 286,290 apprehensions or 429,432 for 12 mos. at the southern border, all well below the apprehensions in Obama's last 4 years in office.
2016 563,204
2015 444,825
2014 569,237
2013 489,498

Considering all the Hoopla about border apprehensions, I was expecting a huge increase but maybe the estimates of decreased illegal crossing are correct. Trump is sure pushing hard for more arrests but you can't arrest what isn't there.
Southwest Border Migration FY2018 | U.S. Customs and Border Protection
Southwest Border Migration FY2017 | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

 

[toobfreak]

I have a plan to build the border wall quickly and cheaply:

1). Our Army invades Mexico and steals all the materials and resources needed to make it while killing any drug lords or Federales they see.
2). Take all the illegal aliens arrested at the border and elsewhere and put them to work building the wall as repayment for their crime.
3). When finished, deport them back to Mexico free people, their crimes served.
4). Cut off all ties and end all trade with Mexico and tell them they can keep their money, people and trade now. They don't owe us a thing.

5.) Germany gets to announce, "We aren't the world's most despised nation anymore! Yeah!!!!"

The WORLD has always envied America, but only the pathetic, deplorable American Left despise their own country and try to hurt and obstruct it at every turn to be more like the very countries we fought and died for to be different and get away from! The American Left, to the body of America what the appendix is to our bodies!

 

[JoeB131]

Oh, Trump's a fraud, alright, and talks out of both sides of his mouth... but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the threat posed by 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens.

You are right. They might actually do unpleasent jobs Americans don't want to do.. GASP!!!

 

[JoeB131]

The WORLD has always envied America, but only the pathetic, deplorable American Left despise their own country and try to hurt and obstruct it at every turn to be more like the very countries we fought and died for to be different and get away from! The American Left, to the body of America what the appendix is to our bodies!

Yeah, guy, the reason why you enjoy a middle class lifestyle is because of the American Left.

 

[JoeB131]

Oh, well that settles it. You knew one guy........

Let me tell you, when getting loaded or unloaded at a busy company, we drivers often have BS sessions. The subject of foreign drivers always makes it to the table. These guys are terrible drivers, dangerous, and irritating to boot. We laugh at how many times we are approached by some stupid foreigner because he doesn't know how to back in a trailer, and is begging for help.

I have no idea HTF these guys got here or how they passed a CDL test to get their license, but they are here, and they are working for peanuts which is why their employer doesn't care how long it takes them.

As long as they can pull these people right off the boat and give them work, there is no reason to hire good quality American drivers that understand the Fn language and can drive safely because they can read highway signs.

again, guy, I'm sorry that after 50 years, you've developed no real job skills, and can easily be replaced by a foreigner right off the boat.

But since "Driving in a straight line" isn't a really complicated skill, that's kind of not my problem.

Fact is, we've always had immigrant labor in the lower rungs of the job market and always will.

 

[Cellblock2429]

/——-/ Yeah, we see how you libtards take the high road when referencing President Trump. Calling him Hitler and Orange Clown 24/7 is very uplifting. Trouble is, someone hits Trump - he hits back. You prefer the old days when Republicans just rolled over and played dead.

I certainly have no objection to a president defending his policies when they are attacked. In fact, I expect it.

However, what Trump is doing is launching personal attacks in answer to criticism of his policy and his actions as president. By not defending his actions and resorting to mean spirited personal attacks he makes himself and the presidency look inept and weak.

Trump supporters love to see the president fight back because they see it as an act of courage but in reality it's Trump trivializing the presidency. One of the hardest things for a president is to keep his mouth shut and ignore taunts and focus on what is really important.

Trump has looked for conflict where it is not, created it where it does not exist. No target is too small, petty or unpresidential. Where most leaders take to heart Teddy Roosevelt quote, "Speak softly and carry a big stick', Trump seems to be totally oblivious.

And that's what we love about him. That's besides the fact that if you leave Trump alone, chances are he'll leave you alone. Hit Trump, and he hits back only harder.

Hitting back and hitting back harder can certainly work in a campaign but it's not the way to win as president. Sure, it will get the oohs and ahhs of supporters with blood in their eyes for all that oppose their man, but it will work against the president the longer he is office.

Donald Trump lives by the advice he dispensed in his best-selling business book The Art of the Deal: “Fight Back — always hit back against critics and adversaries, even if it looks bad.” He has run his campaign under the banner of “You hit me, I hit you back twice as hard.” But how well does that work as president?

Trump's philosophy works quite well when making real estate deals with people he will never have to deal with again and celebrates who he chooses not to work with. However, the president does not have those options. The very people he insults today will be the people he has to work with tomorrow. Does anyone believe John McCain is not going to do everything he can, even from his death bed to get back at Trump, or "Rocket Man", who has an ego as big Trump's and no tolerance for ridicule is not going stab Trump and the US in back at first opportunity.

Successful political deals depend on all parties walking away feeling they are winners or at least they have won something. However, that is not the Trump philosophy which explains why he's unable to strike deals with congressional leaders.

Trump claimed he had an agreement with North Korea, NATO, Canada, France etc when there was no deal at all. Trump is totally out of his depth in negotiating international political deals because they are never zero sum deals, depend on faith and trust the in the deal maker, and there is a clear understanding how each side benefits.

/——/ How can you declare those deals are dead? Let the man finish negotiating before you pick and choose winners and losers

He's not negotiating anything because he doesn't understand the issues much less the geopolitical factors, the cultures, and goals of all the players. The Trump roll in negotiations will be exactly what you saw in the NK talks, two heads of state speaking in generalities and making polite overtures, leaving the negotiations to professions who hopefully know what they're doing.

/——-/ Enlighten is on what went on behind closed doors. TIA

 

[Kondor3]

I don't want us shooting women and children coming across the border illegally, but...

Barring that...

Damned-near anything goes, as an 'acceptable cost', in controlling Illegal Immigration...

Controlling our own borders and the nature and quantity of the people coming-in, in this Post-Large-Scale-Immigration Age, are existential matters.

I choose myself, and my family, and my fellow countrymen, and their culture, and their future, over uncontrolled tidal waves of Illegal Aliens trespassing upon our soil.

Despite all Trump's praises of how well he's doing catching illegal immigrants at our southern border, the Homeland Security Data tells a different story.

From October 1, 2017 to June 30, 2018 there were 286,290 apprehensions or 429,432 for 12 mos. at the southern border, all well below the apprehensions in Obama's last 4 years in office.
2016 563,204
2015 444,825
2014 569,237
2013 489,498

Considering all the Hoopla about border apprehensions, I was expecting a huge increase but maybe the estimates of decreased illegal crossing are correct. Trump is sure pushing hard for more arrests but you can't arrest what isn't there.
Southwest Border Migration FY2018 | U.S. Customs and Border Protection
Southwest Border Migration FY2017 | U.S. Customs and Border Protection

So, apprehensions are down, because Illegal crossings are down?

Great.

Wake us up when we're down to zero.

Meanwhile, even a reduced-number Quarter-Million of these critters is sufficient to warrant our continued focus upon Zero Tolerance for trespassers.

 

[Kondor3]

Oh, Trump's a fraud, alright, and talks out of both sides of his mouth... but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the threat posed by 11-12,000,000 Illegal Aliens.

You are right. They might actually do unpleasent jobs Americans don't want to do.. GASP!!!

Nope... they've depressed wages in multiple trades and job-categories already and that needs to come to an end.

Heaven forbid, employers be obligated to offer a Living Wage to their worker-bees rather than exploiting Alien Near-Slave Labor.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Oh, well that settles it. You knew one guy........

Let me tell you, when getting loaded or unloaded at a busy company, we drivers often have BS sessions. The subject of foreign drivers always makes it to the table. These guys are terrible drivers, dangerous, and irritating to boot. We laugh at how many times we are approached by some stupid foreigner because he doesn't know how to back in a trailer, and is begging for help.

I have no idea HTF these guys got here or how they passed a CDL test to get their license, but they are here, and they are working for peanuts which is why their employer doesn't care how long it takes them.

As long as they can pull these people right off the boat and give them work, there is no reason to hire good quality American drivers that understand the Fn language and can drive safely because they can read highway signs.

again, guy, I'm sorry that after 50 years, you've developed no real job skills, and can easily be replaced by a foreigner right off the boat.

But since "Driving in a straight line" isn't a really complicated skill, that's kind of not my problem.

Fact is, we've always had immigrant labor in the lower rungs of the job market and always will.

Driving is a skill which is why you can't find people to do the job any longer. Some have DUI's, some have too many points, some get into the field but constantly get in accidents or accumulating too many CSA or license points. It's not something everybody can do (including you) for any length of time.

So these foreigners come here, drive until they run into too many problems, take their American dollars and go back to their own country. In the meantime it relieves employers from having to pay quality money for quality American drivers.

I drive more miles in a month than you will in a years time. But even though I'm ten times more likely to get tickets, fifty times more likely to get into accidents, I'd put my driving record against yours any day of the week. I know how liberals drive. The worst drivers I see always have their old Obama sticker on their bumper.