What is moral truth and who gets to decide what it is?

[cnm]

I DO believe in a creator and I believe that our creator has determined what is moral and what is truth.

Verily did he smite them.

 

[K9Buck]

That being said, most of us have an instinctive idea of what is right or wrong.

That's your soul, put into you by God, speaking to you.

 

[Mac1958]

Here is something I found on the topic that I found insightful.

Moral Truth

Moral Truth – The Ultimate Judge
When it comes to moral truth, we’ve all heard the relativist mantra, “Who are you to judge?” Frank Beckwith responded powerfully when challenged at a recent presentation: “I certainly do have a right to make moral judgments. I am a rational person who is aware of certain fundamental principles of logical and moral reasoning. I think I’m qualified. Who would you rather have judge, animals? Your claim that I have no right to make moral judgments is itself a judgment about me. Your claim, therefore, is self-refuting.”

Anyone who says you should not judge has already made a moral judgment about you, namely that you are wrong for judging others. Next time someone says, “Who are you to judge?” you might reply by asking, “Who are you to ask the question, who are you to judge?” If someone says, “You should not make moral judgments,” ask a simple question: “Is that your morality?” If so, “Then why are you forcing your version of moral truth on me?”

Your thread title asks "who gets to decide what it is?", so I'll assume you mean who (a) defines it and (b) enforces it. In a "free" country - one that votes for its "leaders" rather than having their leadership imposed on them - it's ultimately the people en masse who make these decisions based upon their voting choices. Dangerous, of course, because of the manipulation and corruption inherent in the process that can bring destructive, immoral people to power, and worse, keep them there.

Between individuals, I don't think a "Moral Truth" - I have a problem with the word Truth, since it now means little more than "stuff I agree with" - is ever going to be universal. So, judge me all you want, feel free to speak to me the way you want based on your judgement of me. I don't care. It's when you take some kind of action that is based on that judgement that you're going to get my attention. And that's where we circle back to laws and societal expectations based on our culture.
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I presume that you don't believe in a creator, is that right?

I'm doubtful. I think it's up to us to deal with this mess.
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Your statement about truth never being universal is what prompted my question.

I DO believe in a creator and I believe that our creator has determined what is moral and what is truth.

That's fine, but what it ultimately leads to are asymmetrical conversations and a breakdown in communication, since person A and person B are operating under entirely different fundamental intellectual rules. So the conversation becomes an abject waste of time and effort.

As with all issues, some kind of common ground has to be found when discussing an idea, especially something like morality. In the real world, all we end up with is both sides of the conversation preaching to the other with no progress made. I'm assuming that progress, not victory, is the point of the conversation.
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[Marion Morrison]

Here is something I found on the topic that I found insightful.

Moral Truth

Moral Truth – The Ultimate Judge
When it comes to moral truth, we’ve all heard the relativist mantra, “Who are you to judge?” Frank Beckwith responded powerfully when challenged at a recent presentation: “I certainly do have a right to make moral judgments. I am a rational person who is aware of certain fundamental principles of logical and moral reasoning. I think I’m qualified. Who would you rather have judge, animals? Your claim that I have no right to make moral judgments is itself a judgment about me. Your claim, therefore, is self-refuting.”

Anyone who says you should not judge has already made a moral judgment about you, namely that you are wrong for judging others. Next time someone says, “Who are you to judge?” you might reply by asking, “Who are you to ask the question, who are you to judge?” If someone says, “You should not make moral judgments,” ask a simple question: “Is that your morality?” If so, “Then why are you forcing your version of moral truth on me?”

God.

/thread

 

[K9Buck]

Is it immoral for a lion to steal a hyena's kill? I'm pretty sure everyone would say "no". It would probably be rationalized that the lion is advancing both his species and his own genetic lineage. Well, if there is no God, then how is it immoral if I steal my neighbor's food? Am I not like the lion? If there is no God, then we are just animals like the lions and hyenas. Why should I be held to a different "moral" standard than a lion?

 

[Marion Morrison]

Is it immoral for a lion to steal a hyena's kill? I'm pretty sure everyone would say "no". It would probably be rationalized that the lion is advancing both his species and his own genetic lineage. Well, if there is no God, then how is it immoral if I steal my neighbor's food? Am I not like the lion? If there is no God, then we are just animals like the lions and hyenas. Why should I be held to a different "moral" standard than a lion?

Is it immoral for my cat to steal the hawk's kill?



She did that the other day.

I laughed. Poor hawk, though.

She came out like lightning.

 

[midcan5]

WIMT ? I think we know it when we see it but sometimes it conflicts with what we want or desire to do and so we excuse or prevaricate or lie and depending who we are in that deep place we adjust or change but in that other place here right now we act like we really do know.

Food for thought below, I could add more but.....

"There are two general competing moral prescriptions: be nice and don’t lie." Ethics professor

"Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right." H. L. Mencken

"People who see truth as dogmatic, and so want no truck with it, are rather like people who call themselves immoralists because they believe that morality just means forbidding people to go to bed with each other. Such people are inverted puritans. Like the puritan, they equate morality with repression; to live a moral life is to have a terrible time. But whereas the puritan thinks that having a terrible time is an excellent thing, and remarkably character building to boot, these people do not, and so [they] reject morality altogether. Similarly, those who do not believe in truth are quite often inverted dogmatists. They reject the idea of truth that no reasonable person would defend in the first place." Terry Eagleton

"There are no morals in politics; there is only expedience. A scoundrel may be of use to us just because he is a scoundrel." Vladimir Lenin

"Acts are not made right or wrong simply by people believing that they are right or wrong. ... Relativists think that moral absolutism is a bad view, encouraging intolerance and so on. But I ask them: Is absolutism only bad in a relative way -- only wrong for them and not necessarily for others? If so, then it might not be wrong for me. I can believe in it and act on it. On the other hand, if it is wrong for everybody, then it is absolutely wrong, which contradicts the relativist's [own] position. So moral relativism is either self-refuting or it has no claim on my moral beliefs." Colin McGinn

"The Roosevelt enactment of Social Security was a moral revolution in our country: We were assured that we would never reach the very depths of poverty. And to be told, that we are now going to gamble it, on Wall Street, is nonsense!" Arthur Hertzberg

"Core morality tells us that people have a right to what they earn by their own efforts freely exercised. It is this part of core morality that Ayn Rand objectivists, libertarians, and other right wingers tap into when they insist that taxation is slavery... The trouble with such arguments is that nothing is earned, nothing is deserved. Even if there really were moral rights to the fruit of our freely exercised abilities and talents, these talents and abilities are never freely acquired or exercised. Just as your innate and acquired intelligence and abilities are unearned, so also are your ambitions, along with the discipline, the willingness to train, and other traits that have to be combined with your talents and abilities to produce anything worthwhile at all.... We don't earn our inborn (excuse the expression "God given") talents and abilities. We had nothing to do with whether these traits were conferred on us or not. Similarly, we didn't earn the acquired character traits needed to convert these talents into achievements. They, too, were the result of deterministic processes (genetic and cultural) that were set in motion long before we were born. That is what excludes the possibility that we earned or deserve them. We were just lucky to have the combination of hardwired abilities and learned ambitions that resulted in the world beating a path to our door....No one ever earned or deserved the traits that resulted in the inequalities we enjoy - greater income and wealth, better health and longer life, admiration and social distinction, comfort, and leisure. Therefore, no one, including us, has a moral right to those inequalities. Core morality may permit unearned inequalities, but it is certainly not going to require them without some further moral reason to do so." Alex Rosenberg 'The Atheist's Guide to Reality'

 

[Moonglow]

Is it immoral for a lion to steal a hyena's kill? I'm pretty sure everyone would say "no". It would probably be rationalized that the lion is advancing both his species and his own genetic lineage. Well, if there is no God, then how is it immoral if I steal my neighbor's food? Am I not like the lion? If there is no God, then we are just animals like the lions and hyenas. Why should I be held to a different "moral" standard than a lion?

You only need a God to be moral, the rest can control ourselves...

 

[fncceo]

Morals are community norms

Actually, those are ethics. Morals are an individual's own concept of right and wrong.

 

[HaShev]

The problem is in subjective opinions and views on reality as well as on right from wrong, good from bad.
Therefore common sense says we must define our creation and purpose within to understand what truly is in line with that "Essence" or going against it and off course.
Thus knowing right from wrong without it being subjective.
You can't know our purpose of place or direction in this world nor it's truth without defining our source & power of life to it's most finite source & thus also our purpose.
WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG , good or bad, in line or opposition is subjective and usually wrong when affiliation pride and a giant eglomaniac's inflated ego is seen as the discerning factor.
So you ask how do we know the difference from prideful claims and what is truly right or wrong. It's already defined *in the name of the greatest focus* in Humanity, the holy city of Shalem.

WE focus and gather and keep the city holy for a reason, it's to set it as a beacon, to recognize that everything we need is in that holy city's name. Like Cliff notes for the Bible is in the legend of how YeruShalem becomes the city of Shalom. The purpose in life is in the name, discerning right from wrong,good from evil is no longer subjective when you have that defined name which in Judaism is said to describe "the Essence" we call Creator/ Creation (God) .
Even the good cop bad cop story is in the name and legend of the holy city- like I said the ultimate cliff note to the book.
Shalem means stability, completeness, and wholeness="the Essence" we call God.
Your purpose is to be stable as all you could and should be.
Mankinds purpose and direction is to progress to be complete and whole aka EVOLVE to be all we could and should be.
That simple!
All understanding of
right and wrong acts,
good vs evil, depend on discerning: "is it towards or opposing that direction/path?"
Is it Shalem?
Is it in that Spirit(Essence) of HaShem?

Sources:
YeruShalem would carry the name. (1 Kings 11:36 &
in dead sea scrolls: Words of the Archangel Michael scroll 4Q529, 6Q23)
The Gemarah (Baba Batra 75) Tells us Jerusalem is named after G0D and is the place commemorating his name and essence. In Sefer D’varim (12:5, 11, 14, 18, 21; 14:23,24, 25; 15:20; 16:2, 6, 7, 11, 15, 16; 17:8, 10; 18:6; 26:2; 31:11).the place that I will choose to place My Name. That is referring to YeruShalem because Sifri identifies the place which Hashem will choose (12:18) as “Yerushalayim”.

 

[Mikeoxenormous]

Another case that no matter what we tell ourselves, we instinctively know what is moral - what is "right or wrong"...

Rubbish. Babies instinctively know right from wrong? Yeah, right.

I must agree, as when a baby comes out, it is the responsibility of the Parents to teach their child right from wrong, good vs evil. But what has been happening, is the liberals, who are supposed to be the adults in the room, turn away from their responsibilities of child rearing and allow their children to do, "Whatever FEELS good". So the children come to their liberal parents and say "I want to be a girl" when the child has 2 testicles and a penis, and the parents who want to avoid conflict resolution, agree with the child, fucking up the mind of that child. This is why the world is in the mess it is today, for the most fucked up in the mind liberal was president for the last 8 years. It is going to take quite a while to clean up the scum of the earth, but we can do it one step at a time.

 

[koshergrl]

Moral truth is a nonsense term meant to turn people from God, and truth, and morality.

Truth and morality come from God. It is not a human construct, the only innate good in humanity is that which is placed there by God, of God.

 

[cnm]

Actually, those are ethics. Morals are an individual's own concept of right and wrong.

Actually, that's my individual concept of a useless post.

Ethics
(functioning as singular)
the philosophical study of the moral value of human conduct and of the rules and principles that ought to govern it; moral philosophy
See also meta-ethics
2. (functioning as plural)
a social, religious, or civil code of behaviour considered correct, esp that of a particular group, profession, or individual
3. (functioning as plural)
the moral fitness of a decision, course of action, etc


Morals
plural noun
principles of behaviour in accordance with standards of right and wrong
​

Collins Dictionary | Definition, Thesaurus and Translations

​

 

[deanrd]

Here is something I found on the topic that I found insightful.

Moral Truth

Moral Truth – The Ultimate Judge
When it comes to moral truth, we’ve all heard the relativist mantra, “Who are you to judge?” Frank Beckwith responded powerfully when challenged at a recent presentation: “I certainly do have a right to make moral judgments. I am a rational person who is aware of certain fundamental principles of logical and moral reasoning. I think I’m qualified. Who would you rather have judge, animals? Your claim that I have no right to make moral judgments is itself a judgment about me. Your claim, therefore, is self-refuting.”

Anyone who says you should not judge has already made a moral judgment about you, namely that you are wrong for judging others. Next time someone says, “Who are you to judge?” you might reply by asking, “Who are you to ask the question, who are you to judge?” If someone says, “You should not make moral judgments,” ask a simple question: “Is that your morality?” If so, “Then why are you forcing your version of moral truth on me?”

Wasn't it a judge who said, "I can't tell you what smut is, but I know it when I see it"?

 

[cnm]

Truth and morality come from God. It is not a human construct, the only innate good in humanity is that which is placed there by God, of God.

I assume the same applies to innate evil.

 

[Bonzi]

Is it immoral for a lion to steal a hyena's kill? I'm pretty sure everyone would say "no". It would probably be rationalized that the lion is advancing both his species and his own genetic lineage. Well, if there is no God, then how is it immoral if I steal my neighbor's food? Am I not like the lion? If there is no God, then we are just animals like the lions and hyenas. Why should I be held to a different "moral" standard than a lion?

You only need a God to be moral, the rest can control ourselves...

Either way it's self control. Just some do it for God.....some for whatever other reason

 

[Bonzi]

Another case that no matter what we tell ourselves, we instinctively know what is moral - what is "right or wrong"...

Most say that premarital sex between consenting adults is a normal expression of natural desires. Yet hardly any are comfortable telling anyone, especially their own children, how many people they have slept with themselves. (From the book, "What We Can't Not Know")

I don't mind telling my past history....Most people think I'm lying about it or exaggerating but that is their opinion, still doesn't change the past..

Maybe that is something more awkward for women to do....

 

[koshergrl]

Truth and morality come from God. It is not a human construct, the only innate good in humanity is that which is placed there by God, of God.

I assume the same applies to innate evil.

Evil is turning away from God.

 

[koshergrl]

Is it immoral for a lion to steal a hyena's kill? I'm pretty sure everyone would say "no". It would probably be rationalized that the lion is advancing both his species and his own genetic lineage. Well, if there is no God, then how is it immoral if I steal my neighbor's food? Am I not like the lion? If there is no God, then we are just animals like the lions and hyenas. Why should I be held to a different "moral" standard than a lion?

You only need a God to be moral, the rest can control ourselves...

Either way it's self control. Just some do it for God.....some for whatever other reason

What other reason is there for morality?

If you are *moral* just to gain standing or to further yourself or your species, it isn't morality at all. It's narcissism.

 

[K9Buck]

Truth and morality come from God. It is not a human construct, the only innate good in humanity is that which is placed there by God, of God.

I assume the same applies to innate evil.

Evil is turning away from God.

I like you. What is your faith?