What should abortion laws be?

[eots]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlA0-ZGy2To&feature=fvw[/ame]

 

[JD_2B]

LMAO!! Nothing like a little gospel music and pictures of human tissue, and ESPECIALLY the image of a human face, to stir up someone's emotions.

AKA: Rhetoric.. Which is NOT objective. I have an "emoticon" for that!

 

[Cecilie1200]

JD, would you want a paramedic to begin treating you because it's plausible that you're not yet dead and you could be saved? Saying it's plausible doesn't mean you aren't dead.

In medicine, we are always to err on the side of caution.

Well, according to Dr. JD's worldview, if she has a heart attack, we should all just let her lie there, because once her heart stopped beating, she was dead and that was it. So we're perfectly justified in shrugging and saying, "Oh, well. That sucked", and walking away, rather than starting CPR to get her heart beating again.

I for one am extremely glad that the real world isn't drawn in the simplistic crayon strokes of JD's worldview.

Google "DNR" order, you fucking halfwit.

Ah, yes. Silly me for not knowing when I posted about something you didn't mention until afterward. How COULD I have been so stupid?

Trust me, girlie. I doubt that YOU even need that DNR.

 

[Cecilie1200]

What world do you live in?
The heart can beat without breathing being present. *holds breath*

Moron.

Not to mention the fact that, despite JD's elementary school-level understanding, not all creatures respirate in the same way that adult humans do. Doesn't mean they don't respirate, or that they're not alive.

A fetus get's it's oxygen from a vein that goes from the mother to the fetus.
But, hey, if attacking me personally, because I happen to know that, makes you somehow feel important- then have a blast!! =)

No, Mensa Girl. There is no "vein from the mother to the fetus". I have already posted to you both a quote and a link specifying how the fetus receives oxygen and nutrients through the umbilical cord, way back when you were brilliantly - and incorrectly, needless to say - telling the board how the mother and fetus share a blood supply.

I realize this is an utter waste of time, but I'm feeling charitable.

FETAL BLOOD AND CIRCULATION

Throughout the fetal stage of development, the maternal blood supplies the fetus with O2 and nutrients and carries away its wastes.
These substances diffuse between the maternal and fetal blood through the placental membrane.

In the fetal circulatory system, the umbilical vein transports blood rich in O2 and nutrients from the placenta to the fetal body.

Once again, the mother's blood does not enter the fetal body, and they have completely separate blood supplies . . . as has been explained to you previously.

 

[Father Time]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlA0-ZGy2To&feature=fvw

So your proof basically boils down to 'that blob looks human'?

You can at least try eots.

 

[Cecilie1200]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlA0-ZGy2To&feature=fvw

So your proof basically boils down to 'that blob looks human'?

You can at least try eots.

Well, why not? Do you know how many times I've heard the fatbrained argument of "a fetus doesn't LOOK human"? Meaning, of course, that he doesn't look like an ADULT human, as though he should.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Not to mention the fact that, despite JD's elementary school-level understanding, not all creatures respirate in the same way that adult humans do. Doesn't mean they don't respirate, or that they're not alive.

A fetus get's it's oxygen from a vein that goes from the mother to the fetus.
But, hey, if attacking me personally, because I happen to know that, makes you somehow feel important- then have a blast!! =)

No, Mensa Girl. There is no "vein from the mother to the fetus". I have already posted to you both a quote and a link specifying how the fetus receives oxygen and nutrients through the umbilical cord, way back when you were brilliantly - and incorrectly, needless to say - telling the board how the mother and fetus share a blood supply.

I realize this is an utter waste of time, but I'm feeling charitable.

FETAL BLOOD AND CIRCULATION

Throughout the fetal stage of development, the maternal blood supplies the fetus with O2 and nutrients and carries away its wastes.
These substances diffuse between the maternal and fetal blood through the placental membrane.

In the fetal circulatory system, the umbilical vein transports blood rich in O2 and nutrients from the placenta to the fetal body.

Once again, the mother's blood does not enter the fetal body, and they have completely separate blood supplies . . . as has been explained to you previously.

Else wouldn't all children have to have the same blood type as the mother? You know, since mixing blood types is lethal... In fact, after the first pregnancy, if the second child's bloodtype is the same as the first and different than the mothers, antibodies can still cross the membrane and cause all kinds of hell.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

THE WOMAN IS SENTIENT.

though not necessarily intelligent, as you've been so kind to demonstrate.

please DO TELL us what kinds of knowledge and such a fetusperson can share with the rest of us?

So you're only a 'person' if you have knowledge to share?

Are you sure you want to surrender your personhood status like that?

 

[eots]

LMAO!! Nothing like a little gospel music and pictures of human tissue, and ESPECIALLY the image of a human face, to stir up someone's emotions.

AKA: Rhetoric.. Which is NOT objective. I have an "emoticon" for that!

a human face you say..interesting...and you consider the human response and emotion to the reality of abortion to be rhetoric and not your pages of flailing attempts to rationalize away these normal human responses ?

 

[Bern80]

Do you or don't you want women to be criminalized for obtaining (illegal) abortions outside of your subjective field of acceptance? Answer the question.

Yes I think ANYONE that takes another innocent human life should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. The real question is why don't you believe that?

If a woman decided to abort a pregnancy, during the time when the fetus is deemed to be potentially conscious, and was therefore illegal, what should her punishment be? Can you ANSWER that?

She should or could be charged from anything from manslaughter to murder, the punishment for which will very depending on the circumstances.

Because really, we have been discussing the rest for weeks, and no matter what response I have given you, your ultimate retort will be that it is *I* who is being illogical, even despite the fact that the only "evidence" you have given on fetal sentience has been inconclusive. Clearly, neither of us can prove that any event, either scientific or divine, happens at the moment of birth and breathing.

If that were the case that would force you to admit that the possibility exists you are taking another human life. Curious that you are okay with that risk In truth though you can't keep waffling between terms. You have stated before that sentience really doesn't matter to you from a legal perspective. So YOU answer a direct question: At what point should a woman be prosecuted for killing her child?

I will admit that my belief that the baby is sentient at birth is PARTIALLY religious in nature, but that makes no difference in the discussion whatsoever, being that your belief that killing is wrong, is also religious in nature as well.

I haven't brought up my religious beliefs once in this thread that I am aware of. AGAIN it is you doing the bulk of the baseless presuming dear. My beliefs about killing an innocent human life does not come from what any religion tells me about the matter. Personally I find people who's morality is guided by religion to be rather weak minded. The rest of your bull shit argument about my position being religious wether I recognize it or not is just that, bull shit. To contend that is to contend that without religion humans can not distinguish between right and wrong.

The question of abortion *being illegal* is ABSOLUTELY a question of how you think the woman should be punished. Answer the question.

Done

No! I just SAID that this was a PERSONAL view. Women should not be criminalized for.......

I haven't posted any sources in this thread at all. You're thinking of prolet, I believe.

How would she be punished if this sort of thing was TRULY considered "murder", in your opinion? How do you think the woman should be punished for making this decision? Answer.

The same way any person is punished for murder. I suppose in the court system it could actually range from anything from manslaughter to pre-meditated murder depending on the circumstances. The punishment of which would be whatever the legal statutes are for that charge. That is all dependent of course on the a child being given legal status that would warrant those charges, but assuming it was, why would the punishment be any different for killing an unborn human being than killing a born one?

And no study or source you have found has shown that this type of activity exists pre-birth, but in SEVERAL of your sources, you have shown that pre term infants DO show better reactions than their fetal counterparts. YOU showed this. YOU are the only one who is solidifying MY arguments, through your own half assed, despondent attempts at belittling them, all because you cannot deal with this EMOTIONALLY.

I realize that a 9 month gestated fetus looks like and is the same size as a 3 week old preemie that was born three weeks early. The three week OLD baby shows MORE response than the fetus does. YOUR SOURCES SAY SO.
My opinion is that there is a higher power that neither one of us might ever understand or fully grasp, at work here. There is NO explanation of logic as to why and how this phenomenon occurs. That does not make it impossible. And YOUR sources PROVE that.

yeah....not me again. I'm not sure I care what the sources say. I only maintain that your extreme stance isn't logical to me. You see your argument renders what the sources say irrelevent. I don't have to prove they're right. All I have to do is make a decent argument that you are not. The only problem is I'm not sure you even know what your position is considering how much back and forth you've done on it. So I again ask at what point if any, should a woman be prosecuted for killing her children?

Social dependence does not equal physical dependence. You cannot get past the fact that physical dependence for a fetus is a reliance on the mother being alive, period. Socially, the person caring for a baby can die, and the baby will still live for an indefinite period of time. Truly, you need to get PAST this.

No child before the age of about 3 (before including just post conception) will survive long without SOMEONE caring for it. YOU made the assertion that a justification for abortion is that the fetus is this 'thing' that is wholly dependent on you for survival and thus has no rights of it's own. All I am trying to get across is that relatively speaking their is little difference in the level of dependence a child has on SOMEONE to insure its survival pre-birth or post-birth

Again- if the person with the social responsibility died, then baby would cry, the person would be found, in a matter of days (generally speaking) and the baby would have the capability of growing up into adulthood. This is NOT how it works with fetuses. Move the fuck on, brother.

WOW. Now we're really reaching.......

Ah a sociological conundrum. Actually, because there are so many people in society who do not want to have more biological children, or cannot have biological children, then surrogate parents are often used, and even more than this, mothers (and fathers) who are carrying a fetus will sign papers voluntarily giving their child, once born alive, the parental rights to that child. Society DOES make the choice. OFTEN. I have a "long lost Aunt" who we found out lives in Scotland. The story goes like this: My grandfather used to beat my grandma. My grandma, at one point, needed some friendly good touch, and love.. She went off and fell in love with another guy, while she was married to the shitstain we DONT really call "gramps". (I refer to him as Harry). This was in the 1940s. She already had three kids, and knew that she could not go home to Harry with a bulging belly, so she asked a friend to take care of one of her existing three girls. (My Aunt). So the friends adopted her. My grandma moved somewhere (I have no idea where). My Aunt was never really happy with the situation, but seems to be a happy, well adjusted adult, with a full family who loves her, now. She wants nothing to do with our family, of course. The feelings involved with being "given up" are very much akin to "unwantedness", even though the family that cared for her and loved her, definitely did WANT her. The choice was not pushed on them. It was voluntary.
Society does not take kids based on involuntary servitude.
Furthermore, to claim that a woman who is 8 or 9 months pregnant should not abort, along with these statements above, is much akin to saying that she should not put the child up for adoption, also. What is WRONG with this picture? Talk about lacking logic. Good Grief!!!

That long winded BS doesn't mean adoption is off the table. This is real simple JD. Again presuming you believe a child is a human being at some point pre-birth, all that is being argued is that you don't have the right to murder that child without being prosecuted.

And having consensual sex, and being a person who does not have a period but every few months, one might not ever notice that they even missed one to begin with. Women are not, and should not be prosecuted for being sexually active, just because YOU think that they should be taking a weekly fucking pregnancy test.. My word. The only arguments for negative actions you are even discussing here is the sole fact that MOST women do not sit there and test themselves for pregnancy every freaking week. Get through it!! That is PREPOSTEROUS AND OUTRAGEOUS!!!

Why is it preposterous for a woman to find out if an outcome she KNOWS is possible, a life changing outcome at that, has actually happened. What fucking sense does it make to go through everything you went through, when it could have been prevented so much sooner by simply taking a pregnancy test? Forget our disagreement for a moment on what you and I consider irresponsible behavior, doesn't it just plain make the most sense to find out as soon as possible?

Ok so how should women who abort in the 4th month be punished then?? Go ahead, and answer the question.

Depends on whether the child could be considered a human life at that point. The science isn't quite there yet on that issue. As I said above. I don't find it relevant to your position because in your position the justification for abortion doesn't stop at that point in time. I have gathered it stops after the baby is born and it may not even matter whether it is human life before that to you as a legal issue.

Oh really- please DO TELL us what kinds of knowledge and such a fetusperson can share with the rest of us? YOU ARE DODGING THE QUESTIONS BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO LOGICAL ANSWER.

Oh for the love of Pete. Last time. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ALL SPOKESPERSONS, SALESPERSONS, CHAIRPERSONS, ETC. ARE ALL PERSONS, IS A TRUE STATEMENT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT YOU SAID, THAT ALL PERSONS ARE SALESPERSONS, CHAIRPERSONS, ETC., IS NOT A TRUE STATEMENT?

 

[HUGGY]

What do you believe abortion laws should be?


Oh by all means we need a national abortion law that states that fundis can stone a woman to death for even talking about the possibility.

Then we need to pass a law that states that anyone that does not agree with your religion has the right to kill you....therby streamlining the earlier law.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Oh for the love of Pete. Last time. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ALL SPOKESPERSONS, SALESPERSONS, CHAIRPERSONS, ETC. ARE ALL PERSONS, IS A TRUE STATEMENT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT YOU SAID, THAT ALL PERSONS ARE SALESPERSONS, CHAIRPERSONS, ETC., IS NOT A TRUE STATEMENT?

Don't confuse her with logic...

Didn't anyone ever tell you to not pick on the retarded?

 

[Care4all]

Question: is conception when the egg and sperm unite or is conception actually when the united egg and sperm attaches itself to the uterus?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Question: is conception when the egg and sperm unite or is conception actually when the united egg and sperm attaches itself to the uterus?

No. Fertilization usually occurs in the fallopian tubes, if memory serves.

The embryo forms before the woman is even pregnant.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Fertilization and implantation.

 

[Care4all]

also, a sentient fetus is not necessarily a viable fetus...a viable fetus is about 24 weeks...we have had success with a fetus that was delivered prematurely at 21 weeks....where the child is A-ok now and was released from the hospital. The medical procedures have greatly improved for premature infants being born.

the SC in roe v wade gave the a-ok for abortions up to 12 weeks....beyond that, it was up to each individual state to determine...if memory serves, and beyond 6 months had to be for medical reasons only.

Some states have abortion legal, only up to 12 weeks, other states allow to 24 weeks...all states determine this part on their own, without a federal edict...is my understanding?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Viability is another concern, separate from sentience. A sentient adult is not necessarily a viable adult, especially after a gunshot or a car wreck. However, the question of viability and whether they can be saved mostly comes into play after it's determined that they are either confirmed or likely sentient.

Again, I see abortion and braindeath as effectively the same fundamental issue- when is it acceptable to end a human life?

Edit:: This falls under the broader question of when it's okay to end any life- a connection i tried to make evident with the animal rights thread that died out.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Wasn't there a later case that overruled RvW? I was under the impression that RvW was no longer the binding decision?

 

[Care4all]

i am no expert on this but i believe there were several subsequent cases that solidified R v W. And the one case on late term abortions that weakened it slightly

 

[JenT]

pictures really do speak a thousand words...dont they

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql_7jnp--UE&feature=player_embedded

Late-Term Abortions

wow

THAT is going on the front page of my website, thanks!