What should abortion laws be?

[Cecilie1200]

bern
She should or could be charged from anything from manslaughter to murder, the punishment for which will very depending on the circumstances.

I would disagree here. I believe that those laws were created to deal with adults and there are many things surrounding an abortion that make it very difficult to fit it into those categories. I believe a charge for obtaining an illegal abortion should be exactly that; obtaining an illegal abortion. That should carry a heavy punishment to include some jail time to be determined, as you said, by the circumstances surrounding the charge.

Just to clarify, at what point would you place the line for illegal abortion? As I said, I believe that the first trimester is a good point but could see it going out to 4 months maybe 5 but I am not sure I am all right with 5 months. That seems to be the best place for sentience – my stance of why the line needs to be drawn.

JD
Plausible does not mean "conclusive".

And the theory of gravity is still a theory and not fact. What is your point? YOU are not conclusively sentient, it is just highly likely. There is no conclusiveness in science, even medical science.


Blah blah fucking blah. You know what imminent danger means and I will not degrade myself by explaining the meaning to you. That is not an actual exception, it is a medical necessity.

However, I refuse to accept that capacity is equivalent to actual functionality.

Based on nothing more than emotion, yes. You have no evidence or coherent argument as to why you take that stance.

We do not use all of our brains at the same time, and we are adults. In fact, we use very little of them, at any given time, no matter how hard we try to think.

Where the hell did you get that idea!!! Do you have ANY working knowledge in biology?

That's an old belief people used to have before they really understood brain function (not that we aren't still largely ignorant on that score, but we're closer). People believed that we were only using 10 percent of our brain and the potential of the rest was going untapped.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Just so you know, most video if not ALL VIDEO of late term abortions that sites like the one eots gave are pictures of late term abortions that occurred for MEDICAL REASONS, they are NOT abortions that women just chose to do haphazardly, late term, just because they felt like it.

It is a shame, a real shame that pictures of women that chose to keep their babies but in late term had to abort them due to medical reasons, like to save her own life, are used to exploit the position of the prolifers.... AND I am prolife so don't be yelling at me as though I am not....

Show me one state that legally allows abortion after 6 months. (for just the will of the mother and not medical reasons)

Know what I think is a shame? (and as you're prolife you might agree) I think its a shame that you can't vote "unless of life threatening circumstances" because that gets exploited and millions are aborted because that opened the door to any reason.

I THINK that's how Roe v Wade was ruled isn't it? And yet abortion exists on demand. At least it is in California.

Fortunately, that isn't the case everywhere, although obviously, doctors have discretion to say what is and isn't medically necessary, and not all of them are scrupulous about it.

When I got pregnant with Quinlan, I was actually a month farther along than I thought I was because I had been taking depo provera, which stopped my periods, so I couldn't really track them. (Hey, who the hell expects to get pregnant at 39?) I decided I wanted an amniocentesis to check for genetic abnormalities. After they did the sonogram and discovered that I was actually 21 weeks along, they asked me if I wanted to change my mind about the amnio, since it was too late for me to obtain an abortion if there was something wrong. (They had also asked me originally why I wanted to bother, since I wouldn't have had an abortion even if something WAS wrong.)

So apparently, that's the law in Arizona, and my doctor is not one to invent some fiction about "health of the mother" in order to abort a Down's Syndrome baby.

 

[Cecilie1200]

For the record, many people DO grieve for their aborted children. I know a man whose former fiancee got pregnant while they were both in college. They decided that it was bad timing, she should finish school first, blah blah blah, just a blob of cells, all that happy horseshit. That was over twenty years ago. It destroyed their relationship and the girl's life. He told me not that long ago that every time he looks at his children, he can't help but think about the one he helped kill, and wonder. You should hear him talk about abortion. Emotional rhetoric? Sure, but a hell of a lot more meaningful than any of the supposedly "logical" bullshit JD keeps spouting.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Viability is another concern, separate from sentience. A sentient adult is not necessarily a viable adult, especially after a gunshot or a car wreck. However, the question of viability and whether they can be saved mostly comes into play after it's determined that they are either confirmed or likely sentient.

Again, I see abortion and braindeath as effectively the same fundamental issue- when is it acceptable to end a human life?

Edit:: This falls under the broader question of when it's okay to end any life- a connection i tried to make evident with the animal rights thread that died out.

And see, I don't think it's okay to end a human life at all (except in cases of self-defense). It's something else entirely to let someone go who's already dead to all intents and purposes than it is to actively kill him.

And here semantics become important. If we define 'kill' as simply ending the life of the prgnaism, per the standard definition, then I emphatically disagree. If we instead mean to end the existence of the individual as such, then we're back to sentience and braindeath. There are other matters, such as capital punishment, but those would be better addressed elsewhere.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

That's an old belief people used to have before they really understood brain function (not that we aren't still largely ignorant on that score, but we're closer). People believed that we were only using 10 percent of our brain and the potential of the rest was going untapped.

In JD's case, it might be accurate.

 

[JD_2B]

Yep... no information for women, lest they reject JD's extremist neofeminism

The comment you are referring to was in no way implying that informed consent during abortion procedures should not be utilized. You just grossly mischaracterize everything I say, as a pathetic attempt to invalidate my actual position.



http://nationalhogfarmer.com/mag/farming_nonsurgical_embryo_transplants/

Non-Surgical Embryo Transplants Ready For The Farm
Amazing what a few seconds on Google turns up

"Collecting Embryos The embryos that have been collected up until now were obtained through slaughter. "

Not amazing at all.. That you would post links to "sources" on pig farming, when the embryos in question were obtained by no other means than fucking slaughter, you moron.

Same slaughter effect goes for these links, also.. The third page of this one, first paragraph..
Artificial Insemination and Embryo Transplant: An Artificial Insemination Centre's Viewpoint

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/embryo_transplant.asp

AVMA Position On Embryo Transplant Procedures

This particular one is only a statement on veterinary embryo transfers, and these MUST be done surgically, much akin to in vitro vertilization.

Again- Because now you are veering off topic as usual, Show me how a woman being forced through a 9 month pregnancy, all because she did not find out until the last day of the third trimester, can or SHOULD, TRANSFER her FETUS to another person.
And AGAIN- the fact that certain technology exists, does NOT mean that it has to be used, even for a "life saving procedure" or a "life extending" use.

So once again you're back to arguing that it should be legal for me to rape you because you can't always prevent me from doing so?

That was not my argument, you foolish little man.

Talk about dehumanizing women... They're nothing but baby-making machines to JD

Nope.. They have every right to make their own decisions in regards to this. Stop mischaracterizing my position.. It has gone beyond "little brother" annoying now. It is really REALLY sad and pathetic.

That doesn't change the fact that Bald Eagles often push their eggs or born birds out of the nest prematurely.

So you should be allowed to kill babies because

Florida Woman Kills Son, Self at Gun Range - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com]

Nope. The answer was in response to a question in regards to the federal protection of bald eagle eggs, you fucking halfwit. Again, stop mischaracterizing my posts.

"Putting the kids first", is the BIGGEST mistake that parents make these days.

Of course, of course.. in your opinion, if the kids EAT and the parent does not eat, then OF COURSE The parent will be fully capable of continuing to feed that child..
NOT.

This one is a physiological inevitability- a parent must take care of themselves, first, to be CAPABLE of caring for the kids. Go ahead and quote a portion of that one, too, so you can mischaracterize it, you social fucking reject.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

"Collecting Embryos The embryos that have been collected up until now were obtained through slaughter. "

I met your challange as it was worded. No need to take you with me.

And why are you crying? Since when do you have a problem with slaughter? Besides, it said 'until now'. They're working on itl

 

[JenT]

For the record, many people DO grieve for their aborted children. I know a man whose former fiancee got pregnant while they were both in college. They decided that it was bad timing, she should finish school first, blah blah blah, just a blob of cells, all that happy horseshit. That was over twenty years ago. It destroyed their relationship and the girl's life. He told me not that long ago that every time he looks at his children, he can't help but think about the one he helped kill, and wonder. You should hear him talk about abortion. Emotional rhetoric? Sure, but a hell of a lot more meaningful than any of the supposedly "logical" bullshit JD keeps spouting.

I can't tell you how much I wished I contacted my boyfriend's parents before giving my first up for adoption. If I had gotten the slightest bit of encouragement and help to keep my first, I would have. But the father didn't want me to, so I didn't.

It turned out that they never had any other grandchildren and my sons grandma, I don't know if she can ever forgive me for not giving her the chance to know her only grandchild. I've tried to encourage him to meet them, but he won't. Or hasn't gotten around to it yet.

So I look at my sons and tell them, DONT get anyone pregnant, but if you do, and my grandchild gets aborted, well, nobody has seen "wrath" from me before. Nobody had better ever harm any of my future grandchildren! If so, there WILL be consequences.

Bottom line:

=

we were ALL just that at one time and NOBODY should have the right to murder us in our most vulnerable stage.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

That was not my argument

Yes it was, until you abandoned it along with human-dog hybrids

 

[JD_2B]

Question: is conception when the egg and sperm unite or is conception actually when the united egg and sperm attaches itself to the uterus?

My medical dictionary says that the term "conception" is actually used to indicate both. I suspect that if doctors/scientists want to be more specific, they use the terms "fertilization" and "implantation". Otherwise, they're kinda referring to that whole period of time between.

Conception= the beginning of when the "life", as you call it, begins. It is the beginning of the life of the ZEF.

However, Conception =/= the beginning of a pregnancy. Pregnancy begins when the product of conception, the fertilized egg, now a zygote, attaches to the WOMAN's uterus.

Many extremists tend to say that the period between conception and implantation is also the woman's responsibility to uphold, in their own private consideration towards the "sanctity" of the "life" of the (yes, in fact growing and increasing in size) zygote. This is why many extremists are against so called "Abortifacients" such as the Plan B pill, and hormonal birth control, which is not only capable of destroying an unfertilized egg, but also creates an even more than usually unfriendly environment in the uterus, with will generally disallow implantation to take effect.

I can assure you that in most cases, a doctor of obstetrics is surely not going to refer to conception as the moment it implants, as that is not the moment the egg is fertilized.

conception definition - medical
con·cep·tion (kən-sĕpˈshən)
noun

1. The act of forming a general idea or notion.
2. The formation of a viable zygote by the union of a spermatozoon and an ovum; fertilization.
3. See concept.

 

[JenT]

...Again- Because now you are veering off topic as usual, Show me how a woman being forced through a 9 month pregnancy, all because she did not find out until the last day of the third trimester, can or SHOULD, TRANSFER her FETUS to another person.

Hon, I think we make that choice when we play around with mating for purposes, apparently and sadly, for sport sex. Surprise pregnancies, IMO, can turn into blessings if we just let what we already created, live.

Nope.. They have every right to make their own decisions in regards to this. Stop mischaracterizing my position.. It has gone beyond "little brother" annoying now. It is really REALLY sad and pathetic.

If I understand this right, it always amazes me. There's a LIFE at stake here. The selfish insistance of the mom that is facing consequences for playing around doesn't earn her the right to murder.

There are so many alternatives to that. 9 months is not a death sentence, only abortion is.

This one is a physiological inevitability- a parent must take care of themselves, first, to be CAPABLE of caring for the kids. Go ahead and quote a portion of that one, too, so you can mischaracterize it, you social fucking reject.

If you are incapable of caring for, or choose not to, there are LONG LINES of people anxiously waiting to adopt. Its not easy to give up a child for adoption, but if you really don't want it, there is always that option.

And when they grow up and look you in the eyes and say "thank you" and you see the reality of the person they have become, wow, there's just no question in my mind, abortion is just so wrong.

But like I've written in columns, if you've already aborted and regret it now, don't beat yourself up, we were all young and deceived. God through Christ forgives and forgets and that child was never an accident, he or she IS with God. They've actually avoided the testing ground in a world that can be so painful.

God is just SO good.

 

[JD_2B]

For the record, many people DO grieve for their aborted children. I know a man whose former fiancee got pregnant while they were both in college. They decided that it was bad timing, she should finish school first, blah blah blah, just a blob of cells, all that happy horseshit. That was over twenty years ago. It destroyed their relationship and the girl's life. He told me not that long ago that every time he looks at his children, he can't help but think about the one he helped kill, and wonder. You should hear him talk about abortion. Emotional rhetoric? Sure, but a hell of a lot more meaningful than any of the supposedly "logical" bullshit JD keeps spouting.

I can't tell you how much I wished I contacted my boyfriend's parents before giving my first up for adoption. If I had gotten the slightest bit of encouragement and help to keep my first, I would have. But the father didn't want me to, so I didn't.

It turned out that they never had any other grandchildren and my sons grandma, I don't know if she can ever forgive me for not giving her the chance to know her only grandchild. I've tried to encourage him to meet them, but he won't. Or hasn't gotten around to it yet.

So I look at my sons and tell them, DONT get anyone pregnant, but if you do, and my grandchild gets aborted, well, nobody has seen "wrath" from me before. Nobody had better ever harm any of my future grandchildren! If so, there WILL be consequences.

Bottom line:

=

we were ALL just that at one time and NOBODY should have the right to murder us in our most vulnerable stage.

It is not your fault that your ex boyfriend did not want children, or that his parents did not have grandkids. Stop beating yourself up over it, already.

PS- Did YOUR parents tell you that you could talk to them any time, if you were pregnant, and that you would support any decision you made? I highly doubt it. In fact, if you had gotten "any" encouragement to become a parent, any offer of support, then your decision might have been much different.
Also, if something other than you not wanting a child at that time, had been going on in your life, then your decision may have been much different also.

People do not start grow up with some thought in their heads that they will EVER feel the need to give a child up for adoption or abort. Did YOU ever have to ponder that consideration before you got pregnant??

I support your decision, though. I am just sorry that you cannot find it in yourself to be supportive of any decisions your sons might make, that might differ somewhat from your own. In fact, telling them NOT to get a girl pregnant in the first place, is almost giving them a little more fuel for, when the time comes, they DO manage to get a girl pregnant. What makes you think that they will feel AT ALL comfortable with coming to you for advice, when you have already told them that PREGNANCY is not allowed, in and of itself? You are FORCING your sons into making a decision that they might not be comfortable with, and that the mother might not be comfortable with. YOU have to understand that not all of your kids' girlfriends are going to share in your way of thinking, and also- blaming your boys for ANY of it, is not going to do anything good for your relationship with them.

I do not support ANYONE being SO coercive in making decisions for another person, whatsoever. To say that there will be WRATH inflicted, is a THREAT of HARM to anyone who dares have a different opinion or makes a different decision than what you deem worthy.

YOUR body= YOUR decision..

Your son's girlfriend's body= HER decision.. Get it?

 

[Father Time]

Bottom line:

=

we were ALL just that at one time and NOBODY should have the right to murder us in our most vulnerable stage.

Are you sure you know what the symbol '=' means?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

YOUR body= YOUR decision..

Another organism, by definition, is not your body

 

[Father Time]

So I look at my sons and tell them, DONT get anyone pregnant, but if you do, and my grandchild gets aborted, well, nobody has seen "wrath" from me before. Nobody had better ever harm any of my future grandchildren! If so, there WILL be consequences.

 

[Father Time]

JenT please stop calling abortion murder, it isn't murder, is a freaking legal term, so to call it murder over and over is just emotional rhetoric.

 

[JenT]

For the record, many people DO grieve for their aborted children. I know a man whose former fiancee got pregnant while they were both in college. They decided that it was bad timing, she should finish school first, blah blah blah, just a blob of cells, all that happy horseshit. That was over twenty years ago. It destroyed their relationship and the girl's life. He told me not that long ago that every time he looks at his children, he can't help but think about the one he helped kill, and wonder. You should hear him talk about abortion. Emotional rhetoric? Sure, but a hell of a lot more meaningful than any of the supposedly "logical" bullshit JD keeps spouting.

I can't tell you how much I wished I contacted my boyfriend's parents before giving my first up for adoption. If I had gotten the slightest bit of encouragement and help to keep my first, I would have. But the father didn't want me to, so I didn't.

It turned out that they never had any other grandchildren and my sons grandma, I don't know if she can ever forgive me for not giving her the chance to know her only grandchild. I've tried to encourage him to meet them, but he won't. Or hasn't gotten around to it yet.

So I look at my sons and tell them, DONT get anyone pregnant, but if you do, and my grandchild gets aborted, well, nobody has seen "wrath" from me before. Nobody had better ever harm any of my future grandchildren! If so, there WILL be consequences.

Bottom line:

=

we were ALL just that at one time and NOBODY should have the right to murder us in our most vulnerable stage.

It is not your fault that your ex boyfriend did not want children, or that his parents did not have grandkids. Stop beating yourself up over it, already.

PS- Did YOUR parents tell you that you could talk to them any time, if you were pregnant, and that you would support any decision you made? I highly doubt it. In fact, if you had gotten "any" encouragement to become a parent, any offer of support, then your decision might have been much different.
Also, if something other than you not wanting a child at that time, had been going on in your life, then your decision may have been much different also.

People do not start grow up with some thought in their heads that they will EVER feel the need to give a child up for adoption or abort. Did YOU ever have to ponder that consideration before you got pregnant??

I support your decision, though. I am just sorry that you cannot find it in yourself to be supportive of any decisions your sons might make, that might differ somewhat from your own. In fact, telling them NOT to get a girl pregnant in the first place, is almost giving them a little more fuel for, when the time comes, they DO manage to get a girl pregnant. What makes you think that they will feel AT ALL comfortable with coming to you for advice, when you have already told them that PREGNANCY is not allowed, in and of itself? You are FORCING your sons into making a decision that they might not be comfortable with, and that the mother might not be comfortable with. YOU have to understand that not all of your kids' girlfriends are going to share in your way of thinking, and also- blaming your boys for ANY of it, is not going to do anything good for your relationship with them.

I do not support ANYONE being SO coercive in making decisions for another person, whatsoever. To say that there will be WRATH inflicted, is a THREAT of HARM to anyone who dares have a different opinion or makes a different decision than what you deem worthy.

YOUR body= YOUR decision..

Your son's girlfriend's body= HER decision.. Get it?

nah

MY grandchildren = MY GRANDCHILDREN

heh, and my kids know I'm a pushover when they disobey me. I've never been very strict or punitive with them at all and I haven't had to, they always amaze me. Their teachers have told me... let's just say my kids have sterling reputations, even though lately they've gotten into a little trouble, lol, let's just say nobody can point their fingers at my kids and say "how dare you criticize the schools, look at your own kids"

I think it's because in times of trouble we've prayed about stuff. They don't answer to me, they answer to God. But if they mess with my grandchildren, WRATH. TONS OF WRATH like they have never seen and they know it.

And just by having met their big brother, spending time with him, wrestling with him, I'm certain they wouldn't abort any anyway. Or pressure a girl to abort hers.

If she aborts hers against their wishes, not a lot can be done about that. But if I hear they pressured any girl to abort, it's OVER. That's what happened to me, by so many, and if my sons do that to anyone else...wow. There will be consequences like never before.

Is all I'm sayin.

 

[Bern80]

Just to clarify, at what point would you place the line for illegal abortion? As I said, I believe that the first trimester is a good point but could see it going out to 4 months maybe 5 but I am not sure I am all right with 5 months. That seems to be the best place for sentience – my stance of why the line needs to be drawn.

That's the hard part. The issue is we aren't at the point that we know at what point we're dealing with a human life or just a sack of cells I, like most rationale people, believe that it occurs sometime during pregnancy. So the best you can do is draw a line at the latest point we know we're really just dealing with an organization of cells. The one thing I have come to change my mind about in this thread is Roe v. Wade, because I think for the most part they got it right. my position would be you can have an abortion anytime before the end of the first trimester for any reason, after that there needs to be an issue of the mother's health being in jeopardy. I would also be open to the idea of a separate law dealing specifically with illegal abortions.

 

[JenT]

JenT please stop calling abortion murder, it isn't murder, is a freaking legal term, so to call it murder over and over is just emotional rhetoric.

FT, a rose is a rose by any other name.

Just because the Supreme Court can't figure out that life = life, doesn't make the killing of that life any less murder. Legalized murder, does that help?

It's bad, FT, but in God's eyes lying is as bad as murder, it's all sin. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for anything they've done in the past. I have nothing but compassion for anyone that was deceived into believing a conceived child is just a disposable blob.

I think there are millions of remorse and grieving would-be-parents in this world, and I think they're carrying around a lot of guilt that they need to let go of. God is in control and He's already taken care of it, as far as the child goes. That's Biblical.

But it is murder, FT, and anyone considering it should know that. At conception, they are who they are to be.

 

[JenT]

So I look at my sons and tell them, DONT get anyone pregnant, but if you do, and my grandchild gets aborted, well, nobody has seen "wrath" from me before. Nobody had better ever harm any of my future grandchildren! If so, there WILL be consequences.

cute

and true