CDZ What was the world like when guns did not exist?

[2aguy]

It doesn't work that way....guns are too important a tool for them to go away now....in fact, they just found an illegal gun factory in Canada....run by drug gangs, and the Mexican drug cartels are building gun factories just across the border...and those guns do not have any form of serial number or identification..so for all those who want to register guns? Ain't gonna work....

Wait,

Are you saying Canada doesn't have roughly 1/3 the guns per capita as the U.S?

Look, I own a gun. I know what the 2nd was intended to allow. I just like just being aware.

Like standing behind a Supreme Court Decision about guns is a slap in the face to every anti-abortion folks who are trying to undo a Supreme Court decision.

And honest, everything I read says fewer Canadians per capita are murdered by guns every year than Americans. That dives into a demographics battle. Even if you discount black male deaths the we still "beat" Canada I think.

Gun crime rates are going up in Canada.....their culture and values effect that rate, but it is going up, not down.

ttp://www.macleans.ca/opinion/gun-violence-isnt-just-a-u-s-problem-and-canada-isnt-immune/

In terms of absolute numbers, no other Canadian city comes close to the number of shootings and shooting victims, and shootings in Toronto increased 41 per cent between 2015 and 2016; this year’s numbers are on par with the previous year’s, too.

But when year-over-year changes in gun violence are taken into account, there are other Canadian cities whose problems are at least just as bad.

Local officials in Surrey, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Ottawa, and Halifax have all publicly lamented the rise of gun violence in their cities, and with the absence of provincial and federal support, they have found themselves scrambling to implement their own initiatives.

In Regina, there has been a 94-per-cent increase in violent offences involving guns over the five-year average, and a 163-per-cent increase in the number of victims of firearms offences between 2015 to 2016. This prompted the city to conduct a two-week gun amnesty program in February.

Confidence in the federal government’s ability to tackle gun violence in Surrey, B.C. is so low that many residents have contemplated severing ties with the RCMP and setting up their own municipal police force. Surrey Mayor Linda Hepner recently announced the city would be creating its own task force to address gang and gun violence.

The part about gun crime rates going up in Canada misses the point. Its a good counter when ppl can't talk back though because it gives you something to say instead of just, "duh, fewer guns, less gun crime.". The important part there is gun crime is lower.

You need a percentage of women who were able to fight of a man attacking them because the woman had a gun type stat.

You don't know what you are talking about......

I show you that gun crime in Canada is going up....regardless of their gun control laws, and then you make the illogical point that less guns = less gun crime....while the gun crime rate is going up in Canada....it is also going up in Britain, Sweden, Australia......

You have been fooled into thinking that crime rates remain frozen in amber....never to change, no matter how the culture and the society changes...

Canada....

In terms of absolute numbers, no other Canadian city comes close to the number of shootings and shooting victims, and shootings in Toronto increased 41 per cent between 2015 and 2016; this year’s numbers are on par with the previous year’s, too.

But when year-over-year changes in gun violence are taken into account, there are other Canadian cities whose problems are at least just as bad.

Local officials in Surrey, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Ottawa, and Halifax have all publicly lamented the rise of gun violence in their cities, and with the absence of provincial and federal support, they have found themselves scrambling to implement their own initiatives.

In Regina, there has been a 94-per-cent increase in violent offences involving guns over the five-year average, and a 163-per-cent increase in the number of victims of firearms offences between 2015 to 2016. This prompted the city to conduct a two-week gun amnesty program in February.

As compared to the U.S.....where more guns = less gun crime...


We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...



--------
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

We may be talking past eachother.

I am saying that for whatever reason fewer ppl per capita are murdered in Canada than the U.S. so using a rise in their rate even though its lower is a false stat. List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

Is there a somewhat similar to the U.S. country where guns are illegal we can use?

How about the states that border Canadian provinces?

Borderland Homicides Show Mexico's Gun Control Has Failed | Ryan McMaken

What About the Canada-US Border?
Do we see similar issues along the Canadian-US border?
As I noted in this article, American states near the northern US border tend to have low homicide rates with states like Idaho, Oregon, New Hampshire, and Maine reporting remarkably low homicide rates that are similar too or even lower than Canadian homicide rates.
Using the same color coding as the previous maps (and the same data source), we see that, with the exception of Michigan (i.e., Detroit) the US-Canada border is marked by homicide rates all below 5 per 100,000:


Source: OECD. Map by Ryan McMaken
Of course, the situation in the Canadian border is immensely different from the situation on the Mexican border in terms of ethnicity, income levels, and climate. Crossing the northern border, however, brings nowhere near the sorts of changes in crime that are encountered on the southern side.
Nevertheless, part of this might be attributed to the fact that Canada is far more gun-friendly than Mexico. There is certainly more than one gun store in Canada (to say the least), and it is estimated by the Small Arms Survey that Canada has twice as many guns per capita as Mexico, with 30 per 100 persons.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It doesn't work that way....guns are too important a tool for them to go away now....in fact, they just found an illegal gun factory in Canada....run by drug gangs, and the Mexican drug cartels are building gun factories just across the border...and those guns do not have any form of serial number or identification..so for all those who want to register guns? Ain't gonna work....

Wait,

Are you saying Canada doesn't have roughly 1/3 the guns per capita as the U.S?

Look, I own a gun. I know what the 2nd was intended to allow. I just like just being aware.

Like standing behind a Supreme Court Decision about guns is a slap in the face to every anti-abortion folks who are trying to undo a Supreme Court decision.

And honest, everything I read says fewer Canadians per capita are murdered by guns every year than Americans. That dives into a demographics battle. Even if you discount black male deaths the we still "beat" Canada I think.

Gun crime rates are going up in Canada.....their culture and values effect that rate, but it is going up, not down.

ttp://www.macleans.ca/opinion/gun-violence-isnt-just-a-u-s-problem-and-canada-isnt-immune/

In terms of absolute numbers, no other Canadian city comes close to the number of shootings and shooting victims, and shootings in Toronto increased 41 per cent between 2015 and 2016; this year’s numbers are on par with the previous year’s, too.

But when year-over-year changes in gun violence are taken into account, there are other Canadian cities whose problems are at least just as bad.

Local officials in Surrey, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Ottawa, and Halifax have all publicly lamented the rise of gun violence in their cities, and with the absence of provincial and federal support, they have found themselves scrambling to implement their own initiatives.

In Regina, there has been a 94-per-cent increase in violent offences involving guns over the five-year average, and a 163-per-cent increase in the number of victims of firearms offences between 2015 to 2016. This prompted the city to conduct a two-week gun amnesty program in February.

Confidence in the federal government’s ability to tackle gun violence in Surrey, B.C. is so low that many residents have contemplated severing ties with the RCMP and setting up their own municipal police force. Surrey Mayor Linda Hepner recently announced the city would be creating its own task force to address gang and gun violence.

The part about gun crime rates going up in Canada misses the point. Its a good counter when ppl can't talk back though because it gives you something to say instead of just, "duh, fewer guns, less gun crime.". The important part there is gun crime is lower.

You need a percentage of women who were able to fight of a man attacking them because the woman had a gun type stat.

You don't know what you are talking about......

I show you that gun crime in Canada is going up....regardless of their gun control laws, and then you make the illogical point that less guns = less gun crime....while the gun crime rate is going up in Canada....it is also going up in Britain, Sweden, Australia......

You have been fooled into thinking that crime rates remain frozen in amber....never to change, no matter how the culture and the society changes...

Canada....

In terms of absolute numbers, no other Canadian city comes close to the number of shootings and shooting victims, and shootings in Toronto increased 41 per cent between 2015 and 2016; this year’s numbers are on par with the previous year’s, too.

But when year-over-year changes in gun violence are taken into account, there are other Canadian cities whose problems are at least just as bad.

Local officials in Surrey, Edmonton, Calgary, Regina, Ottawa, and Halifax have all publicly lamented the rise of gun violence in their cities, and with the absence of provincial and federal support, they have found themselves scrambling to implement their own initiatives.

In Regina, there has been a 94-per-cent increase in violent offences involving guns over the five-year average, and a 163-per-cent increase in the number of victims of firearms offences between 2015 to 2016. This prompted the city to conduct a two-week gun amnesty program in February.

As compared to the U.S.....where more guns = less gun crime...


We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...



--------
-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

We may be talking past eachother.

I am saying that for whatever reason fewer ppl per capita are murdered in Canada than the U.S. so using a rise in their rate even though its lower is a false stat. List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

Is there a somewhat similar to the U.S. country where guns are illegal we can use?

Only if you want to ignore other variables

For instance we already know where 70% of all murders occur. But since these murders occur in very distinct small areas of only 5% of all the counties in the country and these murder islands all tend to be in ultra-violent urban areas where young minorities are for the most part killing other young minorities we tend to turn a blind eye to the very thing that is skewing our murder rates as high as they are. Get a handle on these high poverty, high crime, high murder pockets and we drop our murder rate up to 70% and voila, our murder rate drops to rates comparable with other countries.

So the 64 million dollar question is why aren't we?

 

[RagnarCarlsen]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

Before guns existed governments were primitive hereditary institutions largely run like gangs with little attention to protecting the populace or stopping crime. Prosecution and policing essentially did not exist.

The idea guns make us safe because fewer people die violently today (which is a fact) than did then is probably the most egregious example of an ergo hoc propter hoc fallacy I've ever seen made in earnest. And I've been judging competitive debate since the time of President George HW Bush.

 

[Marion Morrison]

I read, a person who is good with a quarter staff, has an advantage over someone who is good with a bow but resorting to a quarterstaff, in any conflict of passage.

 

[eflatminor]

Way to keep an open mind...

Mind mind is completely open to people who aren't stupid

Thanks for making my point.

Feel free to waste your time with idiots

Apparently, I just did.

Says the moron who denies that human beings are the single most violent animals to ever walk the earth

Well there's a powerful argument! Again, thanks for making my point.

 

[alang1216]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

Human nature has not changed so the world was no less violent before guns. What is different is the industrial scale of the killing. I seem to recall reading about a Medieval battle between armored knights. The battle raged for hours but the only fatality was a knight who was thrown from his horse. Extreme example but contrast that to WWI where the machine gun and artillery killed by the millions. It seems obvious to me you can kill more people in a given time with an AR-15 than you can with a machete.

And fight off far more rapists. Just sayin

Unless those rapists have AR-15s too. Maybe a bazooka is what you need?

 

[2aguy]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

Human nature has not changed so the world was no less violent before guns. What is different is the industrial scale of the killing. I seem to recall reading about a Medieval battle between armored knights. The battle raged for hours but the only fatality was a knight who was thrown from his horse. Extreme example but contrast that to WWI where the machine gun and artillery killed by the millions. It seems obvious to me you can kill more people in a given time with an AR-15 than you can with a machete.

And fight off far more rapists. Just sayin

Unless those rapists have AR-15s too. Maybe a bazooka is what you need?

As long as the victim is armed they stand a chance...when the victim doesn't have a gun and the rapist does, they get raped and often murdered....they just caught the Golden State rapist, 50 rapes, 12 murders....against unarmed victims....

 

[alang1216]

As long as the victim is armed they stand a chance...when the victim doesn't have a gun and the rapist does, they get raped and often murdered....they just caught the Golden State rapist, 50 rapes, 12 murders....against unarmed victims....

Unfortunately we are only human and while having a gun may make me safer it might also make others less safe: Florida man shoots wife on bathroom break, mistaking her for burglar

 

[pismoe]

As long as the victim is armed they stand a chance...when the victim doesn't have a gun and the rapist does, they get raped and often murdered....they just caught the Golden State rapist, 50 rapes, 12 murders....against unarmed victims....

Unfortunately we are only human and while having a gun may make me safer it might also make others less safe: Florida man shoots wife on bathroom break, mistaking her for burglar

------------------------------------------------------------ so an accident occurred or a mistake was made eh Alang ??

 

[pismoe]

and its a non life threatening wound for the poor lady eh . Course accidents happen all the time and mistakes also happen Alang .

 

[pismoe]

as an illustration check this out Alang . --- Toddler killed in tragic driveway accident in San Bernardino --- yeah , accidents happen , mistakes are made and they number in the hundreds or thousands daily in the USA Alang .

 

[pismoe]

and then check out the widdle baby toddlers that drown in 5 gallon buckets half filled with liquid Alang .

 

[2aguy]

As long as the victim is armed they stand a chance...when the victim doesn't have a gun and the rapist does, they get raped and often murdered....they just caught the Golden State rapist, 50 rapes, 12 murders....against unarmed victims....

Unfortunately we are only human and while having a gun may make me safer it might also make others less safe: Florida man shoots wife on bathroom break, mistaking her for burglar

Really? Do you understand the numbers for gun accidents versus how many guns are in private hands? And how often guns are used in self defense?

We went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2017...guess what happened...

The Truth...from the CDC, WISQARS data site...

Fatal Injury Data | WISQARS | Injury Center | CDC

2016

Gun.....495

Car.......38,748

poisoning......58,335

falling.......34,673

suffocation...6,610

drowning......3,786


And according to the Department of Justice research on gun self defense, Americans use their guns 1.5 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack....

According to the CDC, Americans use their guns 2.4 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack....

so....do you see which numbers are bigger?

 

[Pop23]

As long as the victim is armed they stand a chance...when the victim doesn't have a gun and the rapist does, they get raped and often murdered....they just caught the Golden State rapist, 50 rapes, 12 murders....against unarmed victims....

Unfortunately we are only human and while having a gun may make me safer it might also make others less safe: Florida man shoots wife on bathroom break, mistaking her for burglar

Far less of that happening again. the odds are roughly 1.55 in 300,000,00. The odds of his wife dying from a fall 1 in 195

I would lose any sleep over either. BUT WE ALL KNOW YOU WILL FREAK OUT OVER A 1 in 300,000,000 chance, but not bat an eye at the 1 in 195 chance.

How fucked up IS THAT?

 

[Pop23]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

Human nature has not changed so the world was no less violent before guns. What is different is the industrial scale of the killing. I seem to recall reading about a Medieval battle between armored knights. The battle raged for hours but the only fatality was a knight who was thrown from his horse. Extreme example but contrast that to WWI where the machine gun and artillery killed by the millions. It seems obvious to me you can kill more people in a given time with an AR-15 than you can with a machete.

And fight off far more rapists. Just sayin

Unless those rapists have AR-15s too. Maybe a bazooka is what you need?

The rapist appreciate your understanding and support.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

I think it is fairly obvious that at one point in human history, guns did not exist anywhere on the planet....and according to anti gun extremists, this led to a world that was full of peace, and joy and harmony.

I disagree......I think if you actually look at history, when guns did not exist, the strong raped, robbed, murdered and enslaved the weak...who pretty much had to take it......that professional sword swingers controlled the world....owned the slaves and pretty much ruled by the Might Makes Right rule....

I think that guns were a gift.....that they have allowed freedom to spread across the world, and have allowed normal, good people, to devote their lives to their own pursuits, while allowing them the ability to protect themselves without having to devote their lives to martial skills.....


So....was history before guns existed peace, joy and harmony...... or was it more brutal than it is today...?

I bet you will find thought that when MONEY did not exist,there was world peace. there would never be the wars there is if money did not exist.

 

[alang1216]

and then check out the widdle baby toddlers that drown in 5 gallon buckets half filled with liquid Alang .

My point was that guns don't always make your world safer, sometimes they have just the opposite effect. Cars and 5 gallon buckets are not deadly by design.

 

[alang1216]

Really? Do you understand the numbers for gun accidents versus how many guns are in private hands? And how often guns are used in self defense?

Cars certainly kill more people than guns but cars are used much more than guns and have had plenty of safety features added over the years. What has been done to make guns safer?

 

[alang1216]

According to the CDC, Americans use their guns 2.4 million times a year to stop violent criminal attack....

So it would appear the "good use" of guns outweighs the "bad use"? That may or may not be true, since the study says all of those statistics are in dispute -- creating, in the study authors' eyes, a research imperative.

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.

 

[saveliberty]

and then check out the widdle baby toddlers that drown in 5 gallon buckets half filled with liquid Alang .

My point was that guns don't always make your world safer, sometimes they have just the opposite effect. Cars and 5 gallon buckets are not deadly by design.

They don't have Constitutional protections either.