What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

[Circe]

In a socialistic economic system everybody in the country owns the means of production.

No, that's not socialism. That is communism, when the state owns the means of production. I hope you are not trying to promote communism. I suppose you are, though.

If you want to do that, perhaps you could start a thread in one of the other forums? There must be one for failed and insane ideas about politics --- anarchy, reptiloid control of the world, Illuminati and such groups controlling the world, communism, belief that "they" plan everything that happens ten years ahead.

My neighbor was saying something like that just yesterday.........

"Ah. Um," I said.

 

[PMZ]

If you are being rubbed the wrong way by the law, you are an outlaw, and should be rubbed the wrong way, IMO.

Exactly, Rosa Parks should've kept her mouth shut and gone to the back of the bus. Afterall, the back gets her home just as quick as the front, right?

She was rubbed the wrong way by the law. That's what rubbed us the wrong way so we fixed things. That's called progress.

 

[JohnL.Burke]

People who are not outlaws are unaffected by the law. It merely defines how they would behave anyway.

People who want everyone to have more have to start with the belief that more is possible and that stems from the liberal belief in plenty.

As they say, conservatives and liberals want the same things. Liberals want them for everybody.

Oh yes, the liberals belief in plenty. Plenty of high school drop outs, plenty of failing schools, plenty of censorship (speech codes in colleges). plenty of ghettos,plenty of coercion (IRS), etc.

As they say, conservatives and liberals want the same things. Liberals want them by force.

Having plenty is the business of business, not government. Liberals and conservatives both want business success, liberals for everybody.

I think that what you are trying to say is that people will live responsibly, voluntarily. That's not my experience. If you are being rubbed the wrong way by the law, you are an outlaw, and should be rubbed the wrong way, IMO.

I am not saying any such thing. I realize you believe conservatives don't want government and I'm obviously not going to dissuade you from your "opinion without evidence". As for me being an outlaw (another opinion without evidence) I had no idea you knew me so well. Perhaps you can tell me what law I broke? Then give me a good spanking for it!

 

[JohnL.Burke]

If you are being rubbed the wrong way by the law, you are an outlaw, and should be rubbed the wrong way, IMO.

Exactly, Rosa Parks should've kept her mouth shut and gone to the back of the bus. Afterall, the back gets her home just as quick as the front, right?

She was rubbed the wrong way by the law. That's what rubbed us the wrong way so we fixed things. That's called progress.

It's called breaking the law. I thought you supported laws? I thought law breakers were supposed to be bad? Having a change of heart? My job is done.

p.s.
Exactly what is the difference between breaking the law and "being rubbed the wrong way by the law". LOL!!! You're really clutching at straws at this point, aren't ya?

 

[Circe]

So there are many of their audience who are equally unable to keep separate facts and opinions.

Hopefully there are many who don't separate those, because there is no difference between facts and opinions. They are all opinions.

Facts are just opinions we really, really want to be privileged as being "true."

But darn them, people just refuse to believe your facts anyway.

You might be hard-pressed to come up with a fact that everyone agrees on. Maybe the "fact" that the sun rises in the East every day. Most people would agree on that; of course, it's wrong. But that doesn't matter, it's valid as an opinion.

 

[Circe]

Accepting opinions without evidence is called ignorance.

Surely not?

It's called tolerance.

X has Y opinon. I accept that -- not the opinion, which is crazy in my opinion -- but that he holds that opinion and has a right to do so.

Every idea is an opinon.

 

[bornright]

What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

Would all the companies that conservatives own go with them? It is hard to find a conservative that does not work except for the retirees so even if they did there should be many job openings. The question then would be could you find enough of the liberals and progressives to fill those jobs. Many of them have been accustomed to coasting through life on government assistance.

Would there be a military? What kind of fighting force would it be? It would be very likely that the US would be attacked because of this weakness and it would probably be a country like Cuba or even Grenada.

With the legalization of drugs and the fact that there would be no guns to defend yourself there would be even more violent crime than today. These meth heads would be everywhere as it is rare to find a police officer that is not conservative. Honestly when is the last time you heard of a true conservative committing a violent crime. It has happened but it is rare.

If the Conservatives left what Jeremiah Wright said would actually be true America's chickens have come home to roost. It would sadly collapse.

 

[PMZ]

In a socialistic economic system everybody in the country owns the means of production.

No, that's not socialism. That is communism, when the state owns the means of production. I hope you are not trying to promote communism. I suppose you are, though.

If you want to do that, perhaps you could start a thread in one of the other forums? There must be one for failed and insane ideas about politics --- anarchy, reptiloid control of the world, Illuminati and such groups controlling the world, communism, belief that "they" plan everything that happens ten years ahead.

My neighbor was saying something like that just yesterday.........

"Ah. Um," I said.

From the Merriam Webster online dictionary.

1 any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

Communism favors socialism as an economic system because it assumes the failure of capitalism. So far, we have proven Marx/Engles failure of capitalism is avoidable provided capitalism is well regulated. IMO that's a victory for us, and spelled the end of Communism.

 

[PMZ]

Oh yes, the liberals belief in plenty. Plenty of high school drop outs, plenty of failing schools, plenty of censorship (speech codes in colleges). plenty of ghettos,plenty of coercion (IRS), etc.

As they say, conservatives and liberals want the same things. Liberals want them by force.

Having plenty is the business of business, not government. Liberals and conservatives both want business success, liberals for everybody.

I think that what you are trying to say is that people will live responsibly, voluntarily. That's not my experience. If you are being rubbed the wrong way by the law, you are an outlaw, and should be rubbed the wrong way, IMO.

I am not saying any such thing. I realize you believe conservatives don't want government and I'm obviously not going to dissuade you from your "opinion without evidence". As for me being an outlaw (another opinion without evidence) I had no idea you knew me so well. Perhaps you can tell me what law I broke? Then give me a good spanking for it!

If your desire to live within the law is assumed, our laws have no impact on you as they have no impact on me. They impact only those who decide to live in conflict with them. Outlaws.

 

[PMZ]

Exactly, Rosa Parks should've kept her mouth shut and gone to the back of the bus. Afterall, the back gets her home just as quick as the front, right?

She was rubbed the wrong way by the law. That's what rubbed us the wrong way so we fixed things. That's called progress.

It's called breaking the law. I thought you supported laws? I thought law breakers were supposed to be bad? Having a change of heart? My job is done.

p.s.
Exactly what is the difference between breaking the law and "being rubbed the wrong way by the law". LOL!!! You're really clutching at straws at this point, aren't ya?

She broke a local law. She suffered the consequences of that. It was when those consequences became publicized that we, the people realized the unfairness of that local law and put pressure on the Federal Government to outlaw unequal treatment of people by race just to support a local custom.

Were you unaware of all of this?

 

[PMZ]

So there are many of their audience who are equally unable to keep separate facts and opinions.

Hopefully there are many who don't separate those, because there is no difference between facts and opinions. They are all opinions.

Facts are just opinions we really, really want to be privileged as being "true."

But darn them, people just refuse to believe your facts anyway.

You might be hard-pressed to come up with a fact that everyone agrees on. Maybe the "fact" that the sun rises in the East every day. Most people would agree on that; of course, it's wrong. But that doesn't matter, it's valid as an opinion.

Ahhhh, the source of your problem. In fact, perhaps the source of our problems. Anybody can hold any opinion that they want. Opinions that aren't based on facts are called ignorance. Applying ignorance to problem solving never leads to solutions.

 

[PMZ]

What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

Would all the companies that conservatives own go with them? It is hard to find a conservative that does not work except for the retirees so even if they did there should be many job openings. The question then would be could you find enough of the liberals and progressives to fill those jobs. Many of them have been accustomed to coasting through life on government assistance.

Would there be a military? What kind of fighting force would it be? It would be very likely that the US would be attacked because of this weakness and it would probably be a country like Cuba or even Grenada.

With the legalization of drugs and the fact that there would be no guns to defend yourself there would be even more violent crime than today. These meth heads would be everywhere as it is rare to find a police officer that is not conservative. Honestly when is the last time you heard of a true conservative committing a violent crime. It has happened but it is rare.

If the Conservatives left what Jeremiah Wright said would actually be true America's chickens have come home to roost. It would sadly collapse.

More opinion not based on facts. See why no solutions can possibly arise from ignorance now?

 

[Circe]

So there are many of their audience who are equally unable to keep separate facts and opinions.

Hopefully there are many who don't separate those, because there is no difference between facts and opinions. They are all opinions.

Facts are just opinions we really, really want to be privileged as being "true."

But darn them, people just refuse to believe your facts anyway.

You might be hard-pressed to come up with a fact that everyone agrees on. Maybe the "fact" that the sun rises in the East every day. Most people would agree on that; of course, it's wrong. But that doesn't matter, it's valid as an opinion.

Ahhhh, the source of your problem. In fact, perhaps the source of our problems. Anybody can hold any opinion that they want.

That's right, anybody can hold any opinion they want to --- and they sure do just that. Fight it if you like, but there are 6.5 billion opinion-holders and only one of you telling them they are all ignorant if they disagree with your "facts."

Opinions that aren't based on facts are called ignorance.

No, they are called "opinions." Who calls them "ignorance"? Nobody does that, except perhaps you.

I see your idea here is to say that anyone's ideas that don't match the opinions you are pleased to call "facts" are ignorant.

I doubt anyone is going to be very interested in that point of view ---- that's my opinion.

 

[Circe]

What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

Would all the companies that conservatives own go with them? It is hard to find a conservative that does not work except for the retirees so even if they did there should be many job openings. The question then would be could you find enough of the liberals and progressives to fill those jobs. Many of them have been accustomed to coasting through life on government assistance.

Would there be a military? What kind of fighting force would it be? It would be very likely that the US would be attacked because of this weakness and it would probably be a country like Cuba or even Grenada.

With the legalization of drugs and the fact that there would be no guns to defend yourself there would be even more violent crime than today. These meth heads would be everywhere as it is rare to find a police officer that is not conservative. Honestly when is the last time you heard of a true conservative committing a violent crime. It has happened but it is rare.

If the Conservatives left what Jeremiah Wright said would actually be true America's chickens have come home to roost. It would sadly collapse.

More opinion not based on facts. See why no solutions can possibly arise from ignorance now?

I think the free play of ideas is very valuable. Certainly no solutions can possibly arise from everyone thinking the way you tell them to! Anyway, that is unlikely to happen, so why not enjoy the free play of ideas? And tolerate people thinking differently from you?

 

[PMZ]

Hopefully there are many who don't separate those, because there is no difference between facts and opinions. They are all opinions.

Facts are just opinions we really, really want to be privileged as being "true."

But darn them, people just refuse to believe your facts anyway.

You might be hard-pressed to come up with a fact that everyone agrees on. Maybe the "fact" that the sun rises in the East every day. Most people would agree on that; of course, it's wrong. But that doesn't matter, it's valid as an opinion.

Ahhhh, the source of your problem. In fact, perhaps the source of our problems. Anybody can hold any opinion that they want.

That's right, anybody can hold any opinion they want to --- and they sure do just that. Fight it if you like, but there are 6.5 billion opinion-holders and only one of you telling them they are all ignorant if they disagree with your "facts."

Opinions that aren't based on facts are called ignorance.

No, they are called "opinions." Who calls them "ignorance"? Nobody does that, except perhaps you.

I see your idea here is to say that anyone's ideas that don't match the opinions you are pleased to call "facts" are ignorant.

I doubt anyone is going to be very interested in that point of view ---- that's my opinion.

There is no such thing as my facts or your facts.

There are just facts. The variable between you and I are which facts we know, and which we don't know. Each of us.

You seem content to live is a world of what you wish was true. I believe that was the big problem also with Bush/Cheney. That's why their policies failed so spectacularly.

Media extremism will also fail you and us for the same reason. It's based on mythology. While mythology is simple to sell for those anxious for opinions and uncaring as to whether they're fact based or not, that will never be a majority of Americans.

The average American is smarter and better educated than that.

 

[PMZ]

What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

Would all the companies that conservatives own go with them? It is hard to find a conservative that does not work except for the retirees so even if they did there should be many job openings. The question then would be could you find enough of the liberals and progressives to fill those jobs. Many of them have been accustomed to coasting through life on government assistance.

Would there be a military? What kind of fighting force would it be? It would be very likely that the US would be attacked because of this weakness and it would probably be a country like Cuba or even Grenada.

With the legalization of drugs and the fact that there would be no guns to defend yourself there would be even more violent crime than today. These meth heads would be everywhere as it is rare to find a police officer that is not conservative. Honestly when is the last time you heard of a true conservative committing a violent crime. It has happened but it is rare.

If the Conservatives left what Jeremiah Wright said would actually be true America's chickens have come home to roost. It would sadly collapse.

Okay, I just can't resist and profoundly apologize for this, but would there be a military in liberal America?

youtube gay drill team - Bing Videos

Certainly in "liberal America" there would be fewer uses of the military. We believe, unlike Bush/Cheney, that war should be the last resort.

We're reminded of that daily by the graves, handicapped soldiers, and the national debt.

 

[PMZ]

What would happen to the United States if Conservatives left?

Would all the companies that conservatives own go with them? It is hard to find a conservative that does not work except for the retirees so even if they did there should be many job openings. The question then would be could you find enough of the liberals and progressives to fill those jobs. Many of them have been accustomed to coasting through life on government assistance.

Would there be a military? What kind of fighting force would it be? It would be very likely that the US would be attacked because of this weakness and it would probably be a country like Cuba or even Grenada.

With the legalization of drugs and the fact that there would be no guns to defend yourself there would be even more violent crime than today. These meth heads would be everywhere as it is rare to find a police officer that is not conservative. Honestly when is the last time you heard of a true conservative committing a violent crime. It has happened but it is rare.

If the Conservatives left what Jeremiah Wright said would actually be true America's chickens have come home to roost. It would sadly collapse.

Certainly Microsoft and Berkly Hathway would stay here. Who would leave would be mostly owners of the means of production who produce no wealth anyway. Workers do that. People own the means when that's the only choice left to them from their lack of wealth creation skills.

Any owner who can carry their means our of here I'm sure would be allowed to.

 

[Bfgrn]

And here is your other problem...conservatives have NEVER given us less government. When in power, they have GROWN government. MORE than liberals and Democrats.

This is true, and I realize now that this is because there is not much spillover, practically, from libertarianism into conservatism. Libertarians are on the freedom versus coercion (by government) axis and value freedom.

Conservatives promote both civilization against barbarism and personal responsibility versus sucking on the public tit, and control of the state is viewed as not a problem in enforcing that.

Although I must say, the last various so-called conservatives seem to have passed a whole lot of liberal laws, like the leftwing promotion of house-buying for the poor, which led straight into the worldwide Great Recession. So I expect the idea that the Bush's were conservatives was either a lie or they were remarkably ineffective.

No it is not true. The Founders were true conservatives as we define conservatism now. They called it liberalism in the mid to late 18th century--now referred to by most historians as 'classical liberalism' that bears absolutely no resemblance to modern day American liberalism.

The Founders put into place a great experiment--the first in the world--of limited government authorized and allowed by the people. The world's first constitutionally limited government restricted to extremely narrow authority and responsibility. In a nutshell the duty of central government was to provide a system by which the various colonies/states could function as one cohesive nation, secure the unalienable rights of the people, and then leave them strictly alone to govern themselves however they chose to do that.

THAT is what true modern American conservatism is and the only groups promoting it are groups such as the Tea Party, Constitutionalist groups, 9/12ers and such.

Neither Keynesians (and JFK was basically a Keynesian at heart) nor supply siders (Reagan, GHWBush, GWB) are true conservatives as were the Founders. Keynesians are willing to run short term deficits on the theory that giving more money to the people to spend will generate spending that will stimulate the economy that will return the money to the treasury. Supply siders are willing to run deficits on the theory that allowing the people to keep more of their own money will stimulate the economy that will return the money to the treasury.

Both theories are credible to a point and both will work for the short term to a point. Unfortunately we have had governments for a very long time now that are not willing to do anything for the short term. Government programs are given life expectancy approximating mop handles and it costs more every single year to run them. Baseline budgeting means government never shrinks or is less - 'budget cuts' are simply slightly slowing the size and scope of increases in government.

Conservatives want no more government than is absolutely necessary to carry out its constitutional functions. Conservatives want informed citizens who demand that government at all levels not overstep its boundaries and who will hold accountable those they put in the public trust. Conservatives understand government as a necessity, but also understand that unrestrained, unchecked government will always enslave the people and force them to work for and perpetuate the government and everything that an unrestricted government does will eventually be purely self serving.

That is why the Founders envisioned true freedom--a people who would not be governed but who would have their rights secured and would govern themselves.

Take the conservatives out of the equation and all you have left are the keynesians, the supply siders, and the liberals. And you will quickly have a government that will assign the people the rights they will have and there will be no more freedom.

"Classical liberals assume a natural equality of humans; conservatives assume a natural hierarchy"
James M. Buchanan

We have gone over this before FF...ad nauseam. Our founding fathers were not libertarians, and they certainly were not conservatives. They were the most liberal, age of enlightenment thinkers of their day. The closest thing to a libertarian in our founder's day were the anti-federalists. And the Articles of Confederation would be closer to a libertarian document than the US Constitution.

The framer rejected the Articles of Confederation and the anti-federalists.

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It is a ludicrous claim that our country was established by a group of libertarians who intended to bequeath to us a toothless national government. The idea that our Founding Fathers envisioned a regime opposed to regulation and the protection of its citizens' welfare from private actors, laughable to any serious historian, has nevertheless become the signature bromide of the libertarian vocabulary. The Constitution, it is often remarked, establishes a government of limited powers -- an unobjectionable truth -- but the fact that its powers are limited does not negate the mountain of evidence that those venerable lions who invented American democracy were far more concerned with corporate usurpations of freedom than by any threat posed by a government fairly elected by the people.

"The power of all corporations ought to be limited," wrote James Madison, the framer whose influence echoes most resoundingly in the Constitution, as "the growing wealth acquired by them never fails to be a source of abuses." Madison's preference for a strong national government was borne of a distaste for the debtor relief laws being passed by state legislatures during the post-war economic downturn of the 1780s. Like fellow Federalists James Wilson and Alexander Hamilton, he saw the Constitutional Convention as an opportunity to craft a central government powerful enough to serve as an effective check on the states -- an entity that for all intents and purposes hadn't existed during the ill-fated tenure of the Articles of Confederation. In the Virginia Plan, the Convention's initial blueprint for what would ultimately become the Constitution, Madison argued that Congress should have the power to veto state laws, that the president should serve for an unlimited number of seven-year terms (nine years for senators), and that the country should be ruled by what Thomas Jefferson called the "natural aristocracy" -- that is to say, elites. He left the Convention frustrated that the national government, despite being granted broad commerce powers, was not made to be as powerful as he had hoped.
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Conservatives strongly believe in a hierarchy. They do not see any threat from that hierarchy. They support, and protect that hierarchy. That hierarchy includes corporations, CEO's, 'captains of industry', and business leaders. When Republicans are in power, conservatives consider government part of that hierarchy. But. when Democrats gain power, suddenly government is the root of all evil.
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Foxfyre: "Conservatives want informed citizens who demand that government at all levels not overstep its boundaries and who will hold accountable those they put in the public trust."

FALSE. Conservatives do not want citizens informed, they want them brainwashed and they feed them propaganda, not facts.

One of the first things conservatives have done consistently when they gain power is to cut the legs out from under any kind of independent source of evaluation – eliminating the Office of Technology Assessment in 1995, ending any independent analysis of the distributional effects of tax cuts in the Bush administration, challenging scientific consensus on climate change, and most recently, attempting to eliminate funding for the American Community Survey and the National Science Foundation's social science research program.
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Here is the best description I have seen describing the of the role of government, corporations, informed citizens and the press.


"There is nothing wrong with corporations. Corporations are a good thing. They encourage us to take risks. They maximize wealth. They create jobs. I own a corporation. They're a great thing, but they should not be running our government. The reason for that is they don't have the same aspirations for America that you and I do. A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits, and the best way for it to get profits is to use our campaign-finance system -- which is just a system of legalized bribery -- to get their stakes, their hooks into a public official and then use that public official to dismantle the marketplace to give them a competitive advantage and then to privatize the commons, to steal the commonwealth, to liquidate public assets for cash, to plunder, to steal from the rest of us.

And that doesn't mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they're amoral, and we have to recognize that and not let them into the political process. Let them do their thing, but they should not be participating in our political process, because a corporation cannot do something genuinely philanthropic. It's against the law in this country, because their shareholders can sue them for wasting corporate resources. They cannot legally do anything that will not increase their profit margins. That's the way the law works, and we have to recognize that and understand that they are toxic for the political process, and they have to be fenced off and kept out of the political process. This is why throughout our history our most visionary political leaders -- Republican and Democrat -- have been warning the American public against domination by corporate power.

The Bush White House has done a great job of persuading a gullible press and the American public that the big threat to American democracy is big government. Well, yeah, big government is a threat ultimately, but it is dwarfed by the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy. And you know, as I said, you look at all the great political leaders in this country and the central theme is that we have to be cautious about, we have to avoid, the domination of our government by corporate power.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions, would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth, who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another Republican, in his most famous speech, warned America against domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country, I fear the bankers more." Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of fascism" and Benito Mussolini -- who had an insider's view of that process -- said the same thing. Essentially, he complained that fascism should not be called fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state and corporate power. And what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called communism. The domination of government by business is called fascism. And our job is to walk that narrow trail in between, which is free-market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

In order to do that, we need an informed public and an activist public. And we need a vigorous and an independent press that is willing to speak truth to power. And we no longer have that in the United States of America. And that's something that puts all the values we care about in jeopardy, because you cannot have a clean environment if you do not have a functioning democracy. They are intertwined; they go together. There is a direct correlation around the planet between the level of tyranny and the level of environmental destruction."

Robert F. Kennedy Ir. - September 10, 2005

 

[PMZ]

Very well presented.

Corporations follow one rule. Make more money regardless of the cost to others. That, at best, can optimize each corporation, but only under the conditions of regulation to prevent the restraint of trade, and to keep them all operating within the will of the people.

Thank God, when all was settled, the founders built all of that into our contract with government, The Constitution.

 

[JohnL.Burke]

Having plenty is the business of business, not government. Liberals and conservatives both want business success, liberals for everybody.

I think that what you are trying to say is that people will live responsibly, voluntarily. That's not my experience. If you are being rubbed the wrong way by the law, you are an outlaw, and should be rubbed the wrong way, IMO.

I am not saying any such thing. I realize you believe conservatives don't want government and I'm obviously not going to dissuade you from your "opinion without evidence". As for me being an outlaw (another opinion without evidence) I had no idea you knew me so well. Perhaps you can tell me what law I broke? Then give me a good spanking for it!

If your desire to live within the law is assumed, our laws have no impact on you as they have no impact on me. They impact only those who decide to live in conflict with them. Outlaws.

Laws impact everybody. One pays taxes like one should then one is impacted by the law. We are ALL impacted by laws. I happen to disagree with some laws. This does not make me an outlaw. To think for one second that disagreeing with the government should be illegal is a type of fascistic society I hope we don't ever become.