Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[Foxfyre]

Legal segregation still exists?

Link please?

Segregation Now The Resegregation of America s Schools - ProPublica

Separate and unequal Racial segregation flourishes in US suburbs Al Jazeera America

What Does Segregation Look Like Today

Thanks for the links. Per the articles there is no allegation I can find of "legal segregation" (i.e. Jim Crows laws).

A key quote.

"He found that, despite a decline in racial segregation and improvements in incomes marked by the rise of the black middle class, blacks and Hispanics continue to live in the least desirable neighborhoods — even when they can afford better — and their children attend the lowest-performing schools."

It sounds like straight up racial preference on the part of minorities to live in close proximity to people of their own race. To whit: "blacks and Hispanics continue to live in the least desirable neighborhoods — even when they can afford better."

Should we deny minorities the right to live where they choose and among people they choose to interact with? How is their preference "legal segregation?"

Legal in the sense that it isn't illegal. Why are you trying to play with words? This nation is segregated. That is the primary reason there is still racial strife and why it is a benefit to be born white.

Until we are ACTUALLY integrated.......this issue will remain.

It isn't a desire to self segregate. It is a recognition that the barriers to integration are still too lofty.

When I was at college, all of the minorities CHOOSE to sit with each other in the dining halls.


I guess our college was segregated. Is it your contention the security guards should have broken up their friendships and dispersed them among the white students to force integration? Seriously?

Do you think the government should make it illegal for black people to associate with other black people, and the government should go into all the various China Towns and break them up? Really? Because those voluntary associations aren't "illegal," so that makes this segregation. . . . well.. . . legal?


Yeah, that's called voluntary association. Any poor black person that wants to can move into a white trailer park.

There's a good book that addresses this issue called, "Why Are All Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria"

"Walk into any racially mixed high school and you will see black youth seated together in the cafeteria. Of course, it's not just the black kids sitting together-the white, Latino, Asian Pacific, and, in some regions, American Indian youth are clustered in their own groups, too. The same phenomenon can be observed in college dining halls, faculty lounges, and corporate cafeterias. What is going on here? Is this self-segregation a problem we should try to fix, or a coping strategy we should support? How can we get past our reluctance to talk about racial issues to even discuss it? And what about all the other questions we and our children have about race? Beverly Daniel Tatum, a renowned authority on the psychology of racism, asserts that we do not know how to talk about our racial differences: Whites are afraid of using the wrong words and being perceived as "racist" while parents of color are afraid of exposing their children to painful racial realities too soon."

And the fact is if we can't have an honest discussion about racism without half of those discussing it accusing the other half of being racist because they aren't discussing it 'right', then it's pretty much a given that we're screwed and won't ever understand it as it really is.

I remember an old "All In the Family Episode". In the series Michael Stivick ("Meathead the Polack' as Archie called him") was best friends with the black kid "Lionel Jefferson" who lived next door. And in one scene, the discussion was on race and Stivick was repeatedly asking Lionel for the 'black man's perspective' on whatever was being discussed. Finally Lionel called him on it. Stivick couldn't see how racist it was to ask Lionel to provide a 'black man's perspective' instead of just asking Lionel what he thought about it as he would have asked a white guy.

Nobody ever asks for the 'white man's perspective' but so often black people have to give it as a 'black person's perspective' or they will be demonized by the PC crowd as "uncle Tom's" or "sell outs" or whatever.

That comes back to White Privilege. When have you ever seen a white person called out as a 'discredit to his race' because he took a particular position? But over the years we've certainly heard the term applied to Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell, Condi Rice et al when they expressed an opinion unpopular in most of the PC crowd.

 

[mudwhistle]

I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.

But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.

Just remember that history means history. Acting like it's going on today ignores the truth. Blacks were better off when they weren't constantly being reminded how everything bad that happens to them is because of race. Repeat this lie often enough and it becomes a self-fullfilling reality when it's nothing but pure fantasy, and builds an overly sensitive nature that is counterproductive. In other words, they learn to see racism when it doesn't exist.

Since the 1960's, there has been a lot of effort in predominately black schools to build self esteem in black children. As a part of that effort, children were taught that black poverty and crime was not the result of blacks being lazy or incapable of learning but rather the racist attitudes that created those false stereotypes. Although I believe improving self esteem was very important, blaming racism can certainly become a crutch.

Yes. Many people can look to their past as an excuse for who and what they are today. Some kids of all the racial/ethnic groups grow up in significantly poorer circumstances than their peers. Kids with negligent, abusive, drunken, drugged out, or other irresponsible or destructive parenting are going to have some strikes against them no matter what color they are. But all still have a choice. They can use their disadvantages as kids as a crutch and excuse for who and what they are as adults.

Or they can choose to do what they have to do in order to be better than their parents or circumstances were and make choices to be who and what they want to be.

When we tell black kids that they have no chance and they're screwed because of their history or their circumstances, we are almost insisting that they don't see what choices they have. When we tell white kids that black kids are screwed because of what white people have done to them, those white kids are far more likely to reinforce that concept in the black kids. It is a vicious cycle spanning generations now.

And we need to stop it.

Nippit...nippit in the bud.....

 

[LoneLaugher]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

Calling out racism isn't necessarily the problem (and I don't think anyone is saying that). The issue is pushing victimization to the exclusion of anything else.

Yes, racism exists. Yes, at least as far as the criminal justice system is concerned, black folks often do not get a fair shake.

And I also do not think many on the left are trying to consciously push victimization or grievance. But the way to help is to accurately identify where problems still exist and speak honestly about it. Both sides are obsessed with race. Both sides have some unhealthy views. Things won't get better until there is more real honesty.....on both sides.

 

[BlackSand]

Since the 1960's, there has been a lot of effort in predominately black schools to build self esteem in black children. As a part of that effort, children were taught that black poverty and crime was not the result of blacks being lazy or incapable of learning but rather the racist attitudes that created those false stereotypes. Although I believe improving self esteem was very important, blaming racism can certainly become a crutch.

Sometimes the biggest difference race makes is in regards to your parents ... And what they imprint on you through your childhood.

"Can't ... Never did anything"
"You are going to fail, everyone fails ... It only matters what you do with it and what you learn from it."
"You have no one else but yourself to blame for your failures ... Pull up your bootstraps and try harder"
"Nothing is fair in life ... Some people have to work harder at some things ... It is no excuse not to do your best"
"You are the Captain of your destiny ... The Pilot of your fate."
"Damnit ... If you had half a brain you would take it out and play with it"

Okay ... So maybe the last one wasn't great, but no one is perfect.

.

 

[Foxfyre]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

So why not do what McWhorter seems to be suggesting. . . what Morgan Freeman was suggesting in that video. . . and I what I am suggesting in this discussion? Let's remove the fear by stop forcing people to focus on race. Let's stop telling black kids that they're screwed because white America screwed them and let's stop telling white people living now that they are responsible for black America being screwed.

Let's start treating everybody exactly the same--same language, same expectations, same choices--so that everybody can get used to thinking of skin color as no more important than hair color or eye color.

And let's see those 'white privilege' classes people are being required to take as the ignorant and counter productive things that they are.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

So why not do what McWhorter seems to be suggesting. . . what Morgan Freeman was suggesting in that video. . . and I what I am suggesting in this discussion? Let's remove the fear by stop forcing people to focus on race. Let's stop telling black kids that they're screwed because white America screwed them and let's stop telling white people living now that they are responsible for black America being screwed.

Let's start treating everybody exactly the same--same language, same expectations, same choices--so that everybody can get used to thinking of skin color as no more important than hair color or eye color.

And let's see those 'white privilege' classes people are being required to take as the ignorant and counter productive things that they are.

You don't get it. Take some responsibility.

 

[WelfareQueen]

But if we treat everyone the same than we can no longer use the issue of race to divide people.


(Oops...did I say that out loud....)

 

[Foxfyre]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

Calling out racism isn't necessarily the problem (and I don't think anyone is saying that). The issue is pushing victimization to the exclusion of anything else.

Yes, racism exists. Yes, at least as far as the criminal justice system is concerned, black folks often do not get a fair shake.

And I also do not think many on the left are trying to consciously push victimization or grievance. But the way to help is to accurately identify where problems still exist and speak honestly about it. Both sides are obsessed with race. Both sides have some unhealthy views. Things won't get better until there is more real honesty.....on both sides.

Honesty is definitely the factor that is missing. If somebody can't even ask a question without being branded racist, there is something really wrong.

Yes, there is disparity in the court system, but instead of accusing a whole race for that, we should start calling out the judges who engage in it. The black man who receives a more severe sentence than a white man for the same crime should very definitely be able to file a complaint that we all take very seriously and the judge should have to be able to justify that or the sentence is thrown out and the black man automatically gets a new trial at the state's expense. The attention is placed on a racist judge and not on a racist race.

We should be able to ask if kids in predominantly black schools do worse than kids in predominantly white schools is because of racism. Or is it because more black kids are from single parent families or their parents aren't paying attention or requiring performance from those kids? It is a valid question that is in no way racist. We should be able to ask that without being branded racist.

If the better teachers are unwilling to live and work in more dangerous neighborhoods that happen to be predominantly black because they don't have to, then we should be able to see that as a matter of personal safety that has nothing to do with racism. And the solution is to do whatever needs to be done to make those neighborhoods not dangerous.

It is time to see things for what they are instead of trying to affix blame to people that are doing nothing more than living their lives as best as they can.

 

[Foxfyre]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

So why not do what McWhorter seems to be suggesting. . . what Morgan Freeman was suggesting in that video. . . and I what I am suggesting in this discussion? Let's remove the fear by stop forcing people to focus on race. Let's stop telling black kids that they're screwed because white America screwed them and let's stop telling white people living now that they are responsible for black America being screwed.

Let's start treating everybody exactly the same--same language, same expectations, same choices--so that everybody can get used to thinking of skin color as no more important than hair color or eye color.

And let's see those 'white privilege' classes people are being required to take as the ignorant and counter productive things that they are.

You don't get it. Take some responsibility.

Ad hominem and illegal per Rule #1 for the thread. Please address the post and rebut it if you think it is incorrect. Show how what I said is 'not getting it' or 'irresponsible'.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

So why not do what McWhorter seems to be suggesting. . . what Morgan Freeman was suggesting in that video. . . and I what I am suggesting in this discussion? Let's remove the fear by stop forcing people to focus on race. Let's stop telling black kids that they're screwed because white America screwed them and let's stop telling white people living now that they are responsible for black America being screwed.

Let's start treating everybody exactly the same--same language, same expectations, same choices--so that everybody can get used to thinking of skin color as no more important than hair color or eye color.

And let's see those 'white privilege' classes people are being required to take as the ignorant and counter productive things that they are.

You don't get it. Take some responsibility.

Ad hominem and illegal per Rule #1 for the thread. Please address the post and rebut it.

You don't get that we need to proactively bring people together. People need to interact on a regular basis.....really interact.....with those of other races. That means going to the same schools, living in the same neighborhoods and playing in the same circles.

Until you suggest ways for that to happen.....you are just sweeping it all under the rug. We've been trying to sweep for several generations.

Suddenly exclaiming "We are all the same!" is not doing shit. It's avoiding reality.

 

[Foxfyre]

But if we treat everyone the same than we can no longer use the issue of race to divide people.

(Oops...did I say that out loud....)

Bingo!!!! You did and I have been shouting it loud and clear from the opening post. It is the very thing we need to look at when McWhorter asked, "Who are white privilege classes benefitting?" It sure isn't black people. So who?

 

[LoneLaugher]

But if we treat everyone the same than we can no longer use the issue of race to divide people.


(Oops...did I say that out loud....)

You did. And it's still bullshit.

 

[Foxfyre]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

So why not do what McWhorter seems to be suggesting. . . what Morgan Freeman was suggesting in that video. . . and I what I am suggesting in this discussion? Let's remove the fear by stop forcing people to focus on race. Let's stop telling black kids that they're screwed because white America screwed them and let's stop telling white people living now that they are responsible for black America being screwed.

Let's start treating everybody exactly the same--same language, same expectations, same choices--so that everybody can get used to thinking of skin color as no more important than hair color or eye color.

And let's see those 'white privilege' classes people are being required to take as the ignorant and counter productive things that they are.

You don't get it. Take some responsibility.

Ad hominem and illegal per Rule #1 for the thread. Please address the post and rebut it.

You don't get that we need to proactively bring people together. People need to interact on a regular basis.....really interact.....with those of other races. That means going to the same schools, living in the same neighborhoods and playing in the same circles.

Until you suggest ways for that to happen.....you are just sweeping it all under the rug. We've been trying to sweep for several generations.

Suddenly exclaiming "We are all the same!" is not doing shit. It's avoiding reality.

I have not exclaimed that "we are all the same." I don't think anybody else has said that either. Please try to read more carefully.

And how is pushing for us to do away with political correctness and all the focus on our differences and start treating everybody the same so that we do not divide ourselves along racial lines not being proactive?

McWhorter's essay illustrates how destructive and counter productive it is when we pretend we are addressing racism by emphasizing that we are different races. His point is that this actually perpetuates racism. How is he wrong?

 

[Foxfyre]

But if we treat everyone the same than we can no longer use the issue of race to divide people.


(Oops...did I say that out loud....)

You did. And it's still bullshit.

How is it bullshit?

 

[WelfareQueen]

But if we treat everyone the same than we can no longer use the issue of race to divide people.


(Oops...did I say that out loud....)

You did. And it's still bullshit.

Nope. It is obvious many have engaged in demagoguery to divide us....both for votes as well as money and power (e.g. Al Sharpton).

Both sides have used racial demagoguery in the past, but it is now predominately the calling card of some from the left, and it is incredibly divisive.

And racial demagoguery is effective, particularly politically. The Democrat Party has now effectively become a party for non-whites. The last election cycle 63% of white American voted against Democrat candidates. Those numbers are dropping rapidly.

I think those that divide us....people like Sharpton....are incredibly evil. I think the us versus them ideology is evil. I think pushing victimization is evil. If racism needs to be called out, then racial demagoguery needs to be called out just as strongly.

Don't you agree?

 

[danielpalos]

The "primary operative problem" or "chief complaint" from some on the left is having to cope with the exogenous cognitive dissonance of inferior lines of reasoning while trying to establish any confidence to any claim of any superiority or any supremeness.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Flopper is spot on.

Fear of what is different is what we are dealing with. And since the black population hovers around 13% and there has not been a history of forced segregation codified by black Americans in positions of power, it is incumbent upon the majority white population to erase the fear.

Sorry......the idea that liberal white people....who have long since understood that it is us who must make the moves to end the fear that divides us.....have caused racism to survive by calling out racists for failing to do their part....is LUDICROUS.

So why not do what McWhorter seems to be suggesting. . . what Morgan Freeman was suggesting in that video. . . and I what I am suggesting in this discussion? Let's remove the fear by stop forcing people to focus on race. Let's stop telling black kids that they're screwed because white America screwed them and let's stop telling white people living now that they are responsible for black America being screwed.

Let's start treating everybody exactly the same--same language, same expectations, same choices--so that everybody can get used to thinking of skin color as no more important than hair color or eye color.

And let's see those 'white privilege' classes people are being required to take as the ignorant and counter productive things that they are.

You don't get it. Take some responsibility.

Ad hominem and illegal per Rule #1 for the thread. Please address the post and rebut it.

You don't get that we need to proactively bring people together. People need to interact on a regular basis.....really interact.....with those of other races. That means going to the same schools, living in the same neighborhoods and playing in the same circles.

Until you suggest ways for that to happen.....you are just sweeping it all under the rug. We've been trying to sweep for several generations.

Suddenly exclaiming "We are all the same!" is not doing shit. It's avoiding reality.

I have not exclaimed that "we are all the same." I don't think anybody else has said that either. Please try to read more carefully.

And how is pushing for us to do away with political correctness and all the focus on our differences and start treating everybody the same so that we do not divide ourselves along racial lines not being proactive?

McWhorter's essay illustrates how destructive and counter productive it is when we pretend we are addressing racism by emphasizing that we are different races. His point is that this actually perpetuates racism. How is he wrong?

Political correctness is a meme. I've never been politically correct in my life. You are in opposition to me here and you are claiming that your opposition is politically correct. I challenge you to point out examples of me being politically correct. Find one.

As I said earlier. WE ARE NOT THERE YET. We still need to bring MILLIONS of Americans to the realization that we are all equal IN SPITE OF OUR DIFFERENCES.

Duh!

 

[LoneLaugher]

But if we treat everyone the same than we can no longer use the issue of race to divide people.


(Oops...did I say that out loud....)

You did. And it's still bullshit.

Nope. It is obvious many have engaged in demagoguery to divide us....both for votes as well as money and power (e.g. Al Sharpton).

Both sides have used racial demagoguery in the past, but it is now predominately the calling card of some from the left, and it is incredibly divisive.

And racial demagoguery is effective, particularly politically. The Democrat Party has now effectively become a party for non-whites. The last election cycle 63% of white American voted against Democrat candidates. Those numbers are dropping rapidly.

I think those that divide us....people like Sharpton....are incredibly evil. I think the us versus them ideology is evil. I think pushing victimization is evil. If racism needs to be called out, then racial demagoguery needs to be called out just as strongly.

Don't you agree?

Be serious.

 

[Correll]

But if we treat everyone the same than we can no longer use the issue of race to divide people.


(Oops...did I say that out loud....)

You did. And it's still bullshit.

Nope. It is obvious many have engaged in demagoguery to divide us....both for votes as well as money and power (e.g. Al Sharpton).

Both sides have used racial demagoguery in the past, but it is now predominately the calling card of some from the left, and it is incredibly divisive.

And racial demagoguery is effective, particularly politically. The Democrat Party has now effectively become a party for non-whites. The last election cycle 63% of white American voted against Democrat candidates. Those numbers are dropping rapidly.

I think those that divide us....people like Sharpton....are incredibly evil. I think the us versus them ideology is evil. I think pushing victimization is evil. If racism needs to be called out, then racial demagoguery needs to be called out just as strongly.

Don't you agree?

Be serious.

He was obviously being serious.

Answer the question.