Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[WelfareQueen]

I guess asking a question is racist?

 

[LoneLaugher]

The sum total of the advice given in this thread from the right is to pretend that there is no racism and no white privilege.....and it will magically disappear.

This nation is still segregated. That is why this nation still has racists and white privilege.

No one has said that but you. Wonder why? As I said, this nation was founded on the idea of white privilege. The OP and many posters here have made similar points.

Does it still exist?

In what sense? If you are asking legally....no...not at all. There are good laws on the books.

But data suggests there are different outcomes in terms of length of sentencing. About six months on average. That should not be happening, but I find it sadly amusing that the courts (a liberal bastion) are perpetrating this injustice.

But as far as housing, jobs, etc....no. The law demands equal treatment and it should.

It exists.

I said that as far as sentencing. Please read more carefully. Now, it what sense do you believe white privilege exists?

In every sense which has bearing on the prospects for socio-economic advancement in this society.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

I unbolded your bolded part and bolded what I specifically wish to address here:

And here you are really getting to the real heart of what I think McWhorter wished to express with his essay. The deliberate effort to convince white people and black people that it is the fault of white people living here and now that black people have problems is destructive to both. The effort to convince white people and black people that it is the white people who have to fix the problem is even more destructive to both.

In my opinion it is those very efforts that have been a strong influence in creating most of the problems black people have here and now. And you're right. It is evil.

 

[LoneLaugher]

I guess asking a question is racist?

It can be. Don't you agree?

 

[LoneLaugher]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

I unbolded your bolded part and bolded what I specifically wish to address here:

And here you are really getting to the real heart of what I think McWhorter wished to express with his essay. The deliberate effort to convince white people and black people that it is the fault of white people living here and now that black people have problems is destructive to both. The effort to convince white people and black people that it is the white people who have to fix the problem is even more destructive to both.

In my opinion it is those very efforts that have been a strong influence in creating most of the problems black people have here and now. And you're right. It is evil.

No matter how many times you say that.....it will still be unsubstantiated bunk.

 

[WelfareQueen]

No one has said that but you. Wonder why? As I said, this nation was founded on the idea of white privilege. The OP and many posters here have made similar points.

Does it still exist?

In what sense? If you are asking legally....no...not at all. There are good laws on the books.

But data suggests there are different outcomes in terms of length of sentencing. About six months on average. That should not be happening, but I find it sadly amusing that the courts (a liberal bastion) are perpetrating this injustice.

But as far as housing, jobs, etc....no. The law demands equal treatment and it should.

It exists.

I said that as far as sentencing. Please read more carefully. Now, it what sense do you believe white privilege exists?

In every sense which has bearing on the prospects for socio-economic advancement in this society.

Can you be specific? Your response makes it sound like blacks are screwed no matter what they do? How does white privilege harm blacks "in every sense which has bearing on the prospects for socio-economic advancement in this society."

 

[Foxfyre]

I guess asking a question is racist?

According to McWhorter it is.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

I unbolded your bolded part and bolded what I specifically wish to address here:

And here you are really getting to the real heart of what I think McWhorter wished to express with his essay. The deliberate effort to convince white people and black people that it is the fault of white people living here and now that black people have problems is destructive to both. The effort to convince white people and black people that it is the white people who have to fix the problem is even more destructive to both.

In my opinion it is those very efforts that have been a strong influence in creating most of the problems black people have here and now. And you're right. It is evil.

No matter how many times you say that.....it will still be unsubstantiated bunk.

You're entitled to your opinion. But if you want anybody to be convinced, you'll need to show why it is bunk.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

Nobody is telling black ( people, citizens, Americans ) anything of the sort. And....if someone were, they wouldn't be listening.

The message that America is a deeply racist and unfair society is extremely disempowering and negative. It helps no one, and it is false.

The message that there are still racists in this nation and that legal segregation exists and serves as a barrier to socio-economic advancement for black Americans is a fact. Knowing facts is empowering and leads to positive results.

 

[WelfareQueen]

I guess asking a question is racist?

It can be. Don't you agree?

Not in the context of the poll questions asked, no. Completely ridiculous.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

I unbolded your bolded part and bolded what I specifically wish to address here:

And here you are really getting to the real heart of what I think McWhorter wished to express with his essay. The deliberate effort to convince white people and black people that it is the fault of white people living here and now that black people have problems is destructive to both. The effort to convince white people and black people that it is the white people who have to fix the problem is even more destructive to both.

In my opinion it is those very efforts that have been a strong influence in creating most of the problems black people have here and now. And you're right. It is evil.

No matter how many times you say that.....it will still be unsubstantiated bunk.

You're entitled to your opinion. But if you want anybody to be convinced, you'll need to show why it is bunk.

Already done. Read the thread.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

Nobody is telling black ( people, citizens, Americans ) anything of the sort. And....if someone were, they wouldn't be listening.

The message that America is a deeply racist and unfair society is extremely disempowering and negative. It helps no one, and it is false.

The message that there are still racists in this nation and that legal segregation exists and serves as a barrier to socio-economic advancement for black Americans is a fact. Knowing facts is empowering and leads to positive results.

Legal segregation? Where? Please....if you make such sweeping statements you need to be specific. Thanks.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The statement implies that blacks are inferior and cannot compete without government assistance. That is racist because it is based on the race of the people concerned.

That is was even necessary to explain says volumes.

The need for affirmative action (AA) is to redress the imbalance caused by racist laws that treated blacks as second class citizens for generations. The reason for still needing AA today is because there are whites in this nation who screech "wealth redistribution" whenever they perceive that "my money" is being spent to ensure that others who are less fortunate are provided with the basics like food and housing.

Who was it that used that "my money" phrase in another thread recently? Let me see if I can find that post. Since you referenced posts by others you can't object if I link/quote that post here, right?

It is stating that this is the opinion of some people, even anti-racist activists. It is not stating it as a fact. It is asking who believes it to be a fact.

Just as you said that Affirmative Action is necessary because otherwise poor people won't be able to become non-less fortunate. Given that most affirmative action is targeted for black people, Is that not the same thing as saying that black people cannot succeed without federal anti-racism programs? How is it different? Just because you don't use the word 'black'?

The topic of McWhorter's essay however was the effect of white attitudes on black people. So we're pretty much stuck with that aspect of race for the topic.

It is stating that this is the opinion of some people, even anti-racist activists. It is not stating it as a fact. It is asking who believes it to be a fact.

It was not a question, it was a statement. Your question was asking people to check off if they agree with your racist statement.

And once again you make a baseless claim so I am calling you out to prove that "anti-racist activists" hold that opinion. Let's see the names and quotes from all of the famous "anti-racist activists" who have openly stated that blacks "are unable to achieve equality without government".

Alternatively just whine that you don't have to according to your "rules" and allow your credibility to deteriorate even further. Your choice.

Just as you said that Affirmative Action is necessary because otherwise poor people won't be able to become non-less fortunate. Given that most affirmative action is targeted for black people, Is that not the same thing as saying that black people cannot succeed without federal anti-racism programs? How is it different? Just because you don't use the word 'black'?

No, it is not the same thing at all.

Some people will succeed in spite of everything simply because of who they are irrespective of race. Others will fail even with every possible advantage because of who they are irrespective of race.

Your position is racist because you are claiming that blacks can only succeed through AA. That is patently false and it is ludicrous that you would even try to make such a ridiculous argument. AA is there to provide opportunities that otherwise would not be available.

That has nothing to do with social welfare programs that support the less fortunate using "your money". And here is a newsflash, being poor in this nation is not restricted to any single race.

I will ask you to specify exactly where I claimed, implied, or ever suggested that blacks can only succeed through AA. And if you cannot do that, I will ask you to publicly, here in this thread, retract that statement because I have never said such a thing ever.

Who else created the poll and the OP for this thread if it wasn't you?

View attachment 38033


Those are your words in #2 and #4 in the poll, right?

No one else posted them, did they?

Are you backtracking on your own statements now?

The poll asked members to check any statement listed in the poll that they believed to be true.

Are you honestly suggesting that a poll question that members can check if they agree with it--and of course do not check if they do not--is me claiming that the statement is true? Do you have any evidence that I checked that option myself? (I didn't of course.) I can't imagine even my strongest critic on this thread would draw that conclusion.

You asked where you made those statements and I provided them. Since you didn't make your poll voting public there is no way to know how you voted. But that is irrelevant given that you still made those statements in the first place.

Now you are backpedaling.

You also claimed that people are "race baiting" and when called you out on your ad hom you accused me of "derailing".

You started a thread on race and you have used inflammatory statements in this thread. You cannot be exempted from legitimate criticism describing exactly what you are posting using your own words.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

I unbolded your bolded part and bolded what I specifically wish to address here:

And here you are really getting to the real heart of what I think McWhorter wished to express with his essay. The deliberate effort to convince white people and black people that it is the fault of white people living here and now that black people have problems is destructive to both. The effort to convince white people and black people that it is the white people who have to fix the problem is even more destructive to both.

In my opinion it is those very efforts that have been a strong influence in creating most of the problems black people have here and now. And you're right. It is evil.

No matter how many times you say that.....it will still be unsubstantiated bunk.

You're entitled to your opinion. But if you want anybody to be convinced, you'll need to show why it is bunk.

Already done. Read the thread.

I'll take that as a declaration that you don't have support for your opinion that my argument is bunk. And that's cool. A lot of people say stuff they can't back up. But few people take them seriously.

 

[MisterBeale]

Kill all white people and black people, or control everyone's ability to have free thoughts.

Sounds like the goals of eugenicists and authoritarians.


Live in an Utopian world view much?


Seriously, it's pretty simple.

As long as politicians and elites who control the media find a benefit in controlling the masses by creating divisions and hatred in order to get elected and steer attention away from important matters, the blame game and bigotry will continue.

Bull. You find racism and bigotry in people who do not vote, don't pay attention to politics and couldn't name the three branches of the US government if a gun was at their head.

You and I both pay attention....and..... therefore are being controlled by the media? I'd say that both you and I are aware of what the "important matters" are. Are you a bigot as a result? I'm not.

As long as racism exists in the masses, as mass influential movements, IT WILL affect the voting.

If you seriously don't believe that, then you don't know shit about the last presidential election, and you don't know anything about electoral politics.



Here you are arguing about race and racism as a problem that needs to be addressed, yet, you haven't gotten the entire point of the thread. If we just start treating everyone the same, and quit making such a big deal out of it, it will not breed division and resentment. The solution is here and now. You just don't want to accept it.

We're on the same page but watch the ad hominem please. Nobody has to agree with LL;s expressed opinion but he is perfectly entitled to it and it isn't allowed to draw assumptions from those opinions about what a member wants or doesn't want or other aspects of character.

McWhorter's approach to the topic is definitely off the beaten path and is soooooo politically incorrect, that it is hard for some to get past that and even try to understand what he is saying. He touches on the consequences of racism that the politically correct group won't even acknowledge much less talk about. And his opinion that this could be deliberate by those who profit from racism is more subtle, but I think it is there.

Sorry my tone may have SOUNDED abusive, but it WASN'T a fallacious attack, it was just pointing out the facts. He is either being disingenuous, out right lying, or doesn't know anything about electoral politics.
Demographics of How Groups Voted in the 2012 Presidential Election

Six take-aways from the Census Bureau s voting report Pew Research Center

I know. But if we point to the post and show how it is disingenuous or wrong--and do not relate that opinion to the person making it--we do not invite a school yard brawl. And that is the purpose of the no ad hominem rule. It has been so rarely applied at USMB, I think many people have simply forgotten how to argue or rebut a concept without making it personal. But with practice, we'll all get there.

As for your links they are good links - BUT - Rule #3 for the discussion requests that you put into your own words what the links will tell us and how they apply to the thread topic.

Sorry, I'm not used to doing things like that on this forum. I seriously didn't think anyone would care. lol

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

Nobody is telling black ( people, citizens, Americans ) anything of the sort. And....if someone were, they wouldn't be listening.

The message that America is a deeply racist and unfair society is extremely disempowering and negative. It helps no one, and it is false.

The message that there are still racists in this nation and that legal segregation exists and serves as a barrier to socio-economic advancement for black Americans is a fact. Knowing facts is empowering and leads to positive results.

Legal segregation? Where? Please....if you make such sweeping statements you need to be specific. Thanks.

I would like an answer to that too. I am totally unaware of legal segregation existing anywhere, but if it does, we do need to know about it.

 

[WelfareQueen]

Please folks....it you make sweeping statements at lest provide some context and a few facts. Otherwise....it means very little and undermines any point you are trying to make.

Thanks.

 

[Foxfyre]

Bull. You find racism and bigotry in people who do not vote, don't pay attention to politics and couldn't name the three branches of the US government if a gun was at their head.

You and I both pay attention....and..... therefore are being controlled by the media? I'd say that both you and I are aware of what the "important matters" are. Are you a bigot as a result? I'm not.

As long as racism exists in the masses, as mass influential movements, IT WILL affect the voting.

If you seriously don't believe that, then you don't know shit about the last presidential election, and you don't know anything about electoral politics.



Here you are arguing about race and racism as a problem that needs to be addressed, yet, you haven't gotten the entire point of the thread. If we just start treating everyone the same, and quit making such a big deal out of it, it will not breed division and resentment. The solution is here and now. You just don't want to accept it.

We're on the same page but watch the ad hominem please. Nobody has to agree with LL;s expressed opinion but he is perfectly entitled to it and it isn't allowed to draw assumptions from those opinions about what a member wants or doesn't want or other aspects of character.

McWhorter's approach to the topic is definitely off the beaten path and is soooooo politically incorrect, that it is hard for some to get past that and even try to understand what he is saying. He touches on the consequences of racism that the politically correct group won't even acknowledge much less talk about. And his opinion that this could be deliberate by those who profit from racism is more subtle, but I think it is there.

Sorry my tone may have SOUNDED abusive, but it WASN'T a fallacious attack, it was just pointing out the facts. He is either being disingenuous, out right lying, or doesn't know anything about electoral politics.
Demographics of How Groups Voted in the 2012 Presidential Election

Six take-aways from the Census Bureau s voting report Pew Research Center

I know. But if we point to the post and show how it is disingenuous or wrong--and do not relate that opinion to the person making it--we do not invite a school yard brawl. And that is the purpose of the no ad hominem rule. It has been so rarely applied at USMB, I think many people have simply forgotten how to argue or rebut a concept without making it personal. But with practice, we'll all get there.

As for your links they are good links - BUT - Rule #3 for the discussion requests that you put into your own words what the links will tell us and how they apply to the thread topic.

Sorry, I'm not used to doing things like that on this forum. I seriously didn't think anyone would care. lol

I know and actually you're doing every bit as well as most here and a whole lot better than some. There has been a learning curve for all of us. The structured debate zone is still in beta and is unfamiliar to a lot of folks, but I see some real potential to have some real discussions develop. So just know you are much appreciated here.

 

[WelfareQueen]

For example:

Does it still exist?

In what sense? If you are asking legally....no...not at all. There are good laws on the books.

But data suggests there are different outcomes in terms of length of sentencing. About six months on average. That should not be happening, but I find it sadly amusing that the courts (a liberal bastion) are perpetrating this injustice.

But as far as housing, jobs, etc....no. The law demands equal treatment and it should.

It exists.

I said that as far as sentencing. Please read more carefully. Now, it what sense do you believe white privilege exists?

In every sense which has bearing on the prospects for socio-economic advancement in this society.

Can you be specific? Your response makes it sound like blacks are screwed no matter what they do? How does white privilege harm blacks "in every sense which has bearing on the prospects for socio-economic advancement in this society."

 

[MisterBeale]

Foxy,

In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.

All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.

As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.

Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.

Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.

Nobody is telling black ( people, citizens, Americans ) anything of the sort. And....if someone were, they wouldn't be listening.

The message that America is a deeply racist and unfair society is extremely disempowering and negative. It helps no one, and it is false.

The message that there are still racists in this nation and that legal segregation exists and serves as a barrier to socio-economic advancement for black Americans is a fact. Knowing facts is empowering and leads to positive results.

Legal segregation still exists?

Link please?