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Nobody's acting like it never happened.I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.
But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.
Just remember that history means history. Acting like it's going on today ignores the truth. Blacks were better off when they weren't constantly being reminded how everything bad that happens to them is because of race. Repeat this lie often enough and it becomes a self-fullfilling reality when it's nothing but pure fantasy, and builds an overly sensitive nature that is counterproductive. In other words, they learn to see racism when it doesn't exist.
Acting like it never happened also ignores the truth, which was my point there. And I brought all that up because we're on USMB, and I see that ignorance demonstrated here on a daily, even hourly, basis. I spend a considerable amount of energy correcting it.
The purpose behind all that, here and elsewhere, is that none of us know what we're dealing with -- what our context is -- without knowing that history, and that history has been demonstrably suppressed. Institutionally.
I always get in trouble asking for context, but it's not going to stop me from seeking it.
The problem here is the left constantly priming the pump. Inventing racism where none exists.
In which case report it as an ad hom!
You were asked to defend just one of the biased questions in your OP.
Either you defend it or tacitly admit that you have no intention of honestly dealing with the legitimate criticism of your own OP.
Your choice.
Perhaps if you restate the question your are concerned about and explain why it is racist, then I would have a chance to rebut that.
If you are going to say that just asking people whether they do or do not agree with a statement about racism is in itself racist, you're going to have to explain how that is racist too if you wish for me to rebut it. Because I say it is in no way racist.
You are going to have to be specific about what you find objectionable about the OP before anybody can know what you are objecting to. Just saying it is racist without saying why or how it is racist just doesn't cut it.
That's how it works.
View attachment 37965
Do you honestly believe that there is nothing racist in stating "Black people are unable to achieve equality without government programs"?
Is that specific enough for you?
I definitely believe it is not a racist statement. So explain to me why it is. But remember, we already have posts by some on this thread that are specific that federal programs are necessary to help black people because of the wrongs the black people incurred. If those programs are not necessary to help black people achieve equality with white people, then why have them?
The statement implies that blacks are inferior and cannot compete without government assistance. That is racist because it is based on the race of the people concerned.
That is was even necessary to explain says volumes.
The need for affirmative action (AA) is to redress the imbalance caused by racist laws that treated blacks as second class citizens for generations. The reason for still needing AA today is because there are whites in this nation who screech "wealth redistribution" whenever they perceive that "my money" is being spent to ensure that others who are less fortunate are provided with the basics like food and housing.
Who was it that used that "my money" phrase in another thread recently? Let me see if I can find that post. Since you referenced posts by others you can't object if I link/quote that post here, right?
It is stating that this is the opinion of some people, even anti-racist activists. It is not stating it as a fact. It is asking who believes it to be a fact.
Just as you said that Affirmative Action is necessary because otherwise poor people won't be able to become non-less fortunate. Given that most affirmative action is targeted for black people, Is that not the same thing as saying that black people cannot succeed without federal anti-racism programs? How is it different? Just because you don't use the word 'black'?
The topic of McWhorter's essay however was the effect of white attitudes on black people. So we're pretty much stuck with that aspect of race for the topic.
It is stating that this is the opinion of some people, even anti-racist activists. It is not stating it as a fact. It is asking who believes it to be a fact.
Just as you said that Affirmative Action is necessary because otherwise poor people won't be able to become non-less fortunate. Given that most affirmative action is targeted for black people, Is that not the same thing as saying that black people cannot succeed without federal anti-racism programs? How is it different? Just because you don't use the word 'black'?
Just remember that history means history. Acting like it's going on today ignores the truth. Blacks were better off when they weren't constantly being reminded how everything bad that happens to them is because of race. Repeat this lie often enough and it becomes a self-fullfilling reality when it's nothing but pure fantasy, and builds an overly sensitive nature that is counterproductive. In other words, they learn to see racism when it doesn't exist.I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.
But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.
Yes. Using history as a weapon to perpetuate racism I believe has hurt black people far more than it has helped.
That isn't even vaguely akin to anything I posted.
Strawman.
Everything isn't about you dear. My response was to Mudwhistle's post not yours.
Just remember that history means history. Acting like it's going on today ignores the truth. Blacks were better off when they weren't constantly being reminded how everything bad that happens to them is because of race. Repeat this lie often enough and it becomes a self-fullfilling reality when it's nothing but pure fantasy, and builds an overly sensitive nature that is counterproductive. In other words, they learn to see racism when it doesn't exist.I don't think "focus" (whatever we might mean by that term) on white privilege and/or racism either helps or hurts black people, no.
But I do think knowing our history -- which is the context of the world in which we live -- helps everybody equally. You can't know where you're going if you don't know how you got where you are now.
Yes. Using history as a weapon to perpetuate racism I believe has hurt black people far more than it has helped.
That isn't even vaguely akin to anything I posted.
Strawman.
Everything isn't about you dear. My response was to Mudwhistle's post not yours.
You deliberately twisted my point around to something it never said or implied. When you do that you're gonna get called on it. No exceptions.
According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.
So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.
And read this as a data starting point.
Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve
Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.
I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.
Look it up yourself. I am right, and I provided a source. If your too lazy to look at the data I can't help you. The fact remains....blacks and whites of equal intelligence are equally successful in America in terms of educational attainment and income. Period.
No they aren't.
Link????
The OP also suggests--or at least it did to me--that the race baiters and other opportunists are now using guilt of 'white privilege' for their own self-serving interests.
Perhaps if you restate the question your are concerned about and explain why it is racist, then I would have a chance to rebut that.
If you are going to say that just asking people whether they do or do not agree with a statement about racism is in itself racist, you're going to have to explain how that is racist too if you wish for me to rebut it. Because I say it is in no way racist.
You are going to have to be specific about what you find objectionable about the OP before anybody can know what you are objecting to. Just saying it is racist without saying why or how it is racist just doesn't cut it.
That's how it works.
View attachment 37965
Do you honestly believe that there is nothing racist in stating "Black people are unable to achieve equality without government programs"?
Is that specific enough for you?
I definitely believe it is not a racist statement. So explain to me why it is. But remember, we already have posts by some on this thread that are specific that federal programs are necessary to help black people because of the wrongs the black people incurred. If those programs are not necessary to help black people achieve equality with white people, then why have them?
The statement implies that blacks are inferior and cannot compete without government assistance. That is racist because it is based on the race of the people concerned.
That is was even necessary to explain says volumes.
The need for affirmative action (AA) is to redress the imbalance caused by racist laws that treated blacks as second class citizens for generations. The reason for still needing AA today is because there are whites in this nation who screech "wealth redistribution" whenever they perceive that "my money" is being spent to ensure that others who are less fortunate are provided with the basics like food and housing.
Who was it that used that "my money" phrase in another thread recently? Let me see if I can find that post. Since you referenced posts by others you can't object if I link/quote that post here, right?
It is stating that this is the opinion of some people, even anti-racist activists. It is not stating it as a fact. It is asking who believes it to be a fact.
Just as you said that Affirmative Action is necessary because otherwise poor people won't be able to become non-less fortunate. Given that most affirmative action is targeted for black people, Is that not the same thing as saying that black people cannot succeed without federal anti-racism programs? How is it different? Just because you don't use the word 'black'?
The topic of McWhorter's essay however was the effect of white attitudes on black people. So we're pretty much stuck with that aspect of race for the topic.
It is stating that this is the opinion of some people, even anti-racist activists. It is not stating it as a fact. It is asking who believes it to be a fact.
It was not a question, it was a statement. Your question was asking people to check off if they agree with your racist statement.
And once again you make a baseless claim so I am calling you out to prove that "anti-racist activists" hold that opinion. Let's see the names and quotes from all of the famous "anti-racist activists" who have openly stated that blacks "are unable to achieve equality without government".
Alternatively just whine that you don't have to according to your "rules" and allow your credibility to deteriorate even further. Your choice.
Just as you said that Affirmative Action is necessary because otherwise poor people won't be able to become non-less fortunate. Given that most affirmative action is targeted for black people, Is that not the same thing as saying that black people cannot succeed without federal anti-racism programs? How is it different? Just because you don't use the word 'black'?
No, it is not the same thing at all.
Some people will succeed in spite of everything simply because of who they are irrespective of race. Others will fail even with every possible advantage because of who they are irrespective of race.
Your position is racist because you are claiming that blacks can only succeed through AA. That is patently false and it is ludicrous that you would even try to make such a ridiculous argument. AA is there to provide opportunities that otherwise would not be available.
That has nothing to do with social welfare programs that support the less fortunate using "your money". And here is a newsflash, being poor in this nation is not restricted to any single race.
The sum total of the advice given in this thread from the right is to pretend that there is no racism and no white privilege.....and it will magically disappear.
This nation is still segregated. That is why this nation still has racists and white privilege.
No one has said that but you. Wonder why? As I said, this nation was founded on the idea of white privilege. The OP and many posters here have made similar points.
America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.
However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.
Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.
Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?
I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.
According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.
Sorry but Rule #3 for the thread explicitly states that nobody does have to show mountains of data or any data to support an expressed opinion. It is fine if WQ wishes to provide a link to support his statement. But it is not required. If you disagree you have the perfect right to do so. If you wish your opinion to hold more weight than his, however, you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong.
I just provided a number of data links, Foxy. I have a postgraduate degree and this is my field.
Whites and blacks of equal intelligence have virtually identical outcomes in terms of educational and economic success. This has been known for almost 30 years. It cannot be argued as the studies have been replicated many, many times. It definitely undercuts the idea America is still a deeply racist country.
Also, all races are equally biased toward people of their own race and show fairly equal bias against people of different races.
I would encourage anyone to read the data sources I provided as a starting point.
Thanks....and a very good thread.
I know you provided the links and I have very much appreciated your contributions to the thread. On equal 'bias', I still member when our school system and the whole town voluntarily desegregated long before there was any social movement or federal involvement to do so. The black kids had been bussed to the nearest 'black' school 20 miles away and it just occurred to everybody how dumb that was.
Now most of our parents were southern products born and raised into a southern culture where you were courteous and kind to everybody, but the races were to be separate. So when we kids started bringing our new black friends home to play or for dinner, our southern bred parents swallowed hard but they were gracious. And in time it became routine and the discomfort dissipated.
But at a class gathering awhile back I was visiting with a couple of my black classmates--we have stayed in touch over the years--and they confessed that they really were uncomfortable at first--they missed their friends from their old school and weren't sure what to expect in the home school. But it did work out well for them. But the funniest part was their parents who also had to swallow hard and remind themselves to have manners when the white kids came home with their kids. And they were terrified that their kids might start dating somebody white.
But maybe that was my first real education into how to eliminate racism. You just stop making it an issue and let people be people and assume the same risks of encountering great people and jerks on the same basis. And pretty soon, race no longer matters at all, or at least it assumes no more importance than anything else that makes us different or unique.
The sum total of the advice given in this thread from the right is to pretend that there is no racism and no white privilege.....and it will magically disappear.
This nation is still segregated. That is why this nation still has racists and white privilege.
No one has said that but you. Wonder why? As I said, this nation was founded on the idea of white privilege. The OP and many posters here have made similar points.
Does it still exist?
America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.
However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.
Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.
Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?
I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.
According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.
Sorry but Rule #3 for the thread explicitly states that nobody does have to show mountains of data or any data to support an expressed opinion. It is fine if WQ wishes to provide a link to support his statement. But it is not required. If you disagree you have the perfect right to do so. If you wish your opinion to hold more weight than his, however, you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong.
I just provided a number of data links, Foxy. I have a postgraduate degree and this is my field.
Whites and blacks of equal intelligence have virtually identical outcomes in terms of educational and economic success. This has been known for almost 30 years. It cannot be argued as the studies have been replicated many, many times. It definitely undercuts the idea America is still a deeply racist country.
Also, all races are equally biased toward people of their own race and show fairly equal bias against people of different races.
I would encourage anyone to read the data sources I provided as a starting point.
Thanks....and a very good thread.
I know you provided the links and I have very much appreciated your contributions to the thread. On equal 'bias', I still member when our school system and the whole town voluntarily desegregated long before there was any social movement or federal involvement to do so. The black kids had been bussed to the nearest 'black' school 20 miles away and it just occurred to everybody how dumb that was.
Now most of our parents were southern products born and raised into a southern culture where you were courteous and kind to everybody, but the races were to be separate. So when we kids started bringing our new black friends home to play or for dinner, our southern bred parents swallowed hard but they were gracious. And in time it became routine and the discomfort dissipated.
But at a class gathering awhile back I was visiting with a couple of my black classmates--we have stayed in touch over the years--and they confessed that they really were uncomfortable at first--they missed their friends from their old school and weren't sure what to expect in the home school. But it did work out well for them. But the funniest part was their parents who also had to swallow hard and remind themselves to have manners when the white kids came home with their kids. And they were terrified that their kids might start dating somebody white.
But maybe that was my first real education into how to eliminate racism. You just stop making it an issue and let people be people and assume the same risks of encountering great people and jerks on the same basis. And pretty soon, race no longer matters at all, or at least it assumes no more importance than anything else that makes us different or unique.
Well said, and I agree. I think the inherent racial preference among all of us is troubling. I think when we as a people can move beyond it America will be a better place.
But the reality exists (to Mudwhistle's point) there are those on both sides who profit from racial division and grievance. Some of the right wish to believe no racism exists. There are some of the left who insist America is nothing but a deeply racist and evil society.
Personally, I do not believe either extreme.
Sorry my tone may have SOUNDED abusive, but it WASN'T a fallacious attack, it was just pointing out the facts. He is either being disingenuous, out right lying, or doesn't know anything about electoral politics.Kill all white people and black people, or control everyone's ability to have free thoughts.I can't really agree with that Swagger, though I do believe us white people should be no more ashamed to be white than persons of other races should be ashamed of being born who and what they are.
But until we start treating skin color as of no more consequence than hair color or eye color, I am afraid the white race will continue to be demonized by racist opportunists and racism will remain alive and well because it is so easily used for fun and profit and political advantage.
Lets go back to the above statement. I would like to know what you meant by it.
What must we do to kill racism?
Sounds like the goals of eugenicists and authoritarians.
Live in an Utopian world view much?
Seriously, it's pretty simple.
As long as politicians and elites who control the media find a benefit in controlling the masses by creating divisions and hatred in order to get elected and steer attention away from important matters, the blame game and bigotry will continue.
Bull. You find racism and bigotry in people who do not vote, don't pay attention to politics and couldn't name the three branches of the US government if a gun was at their head.
You and I both pay attention....and..... therefore are being controlled by the media? I'd say that both you and I are aware of what the "important matters" are. Are you a bigot as a result? I'm not.
As long as racism exists in the masses, as mass influential movements, IT WILL affect the voting.
If you seriously don't believe that, then you don't know shit about the last presidential election, and you don't know anything about electoral politics.
Here you are arguing about race and racism as a problem that needs to be addressed, yet, you haven't gotten the entire point of the thread. If we just start treating everyone the same, and quit making such a big deal out of it, it will not breed division and resentment. The solution is here and now. You just don't want to accept it.
We're on the same page but watch the ad hominem please. Nobody has to agree with LL;s expressed opinion but he is perfectly entitled to it and it isn't allowed to draw assumptions from those opinions about what a member wants or doesn't want or other aspects of character.
McWhorter's approach to the topic is definitely off the beaten path and is soooooo politically incorrect, that it is hard for some to get past that and even try to understand what he is saying. He touches on the consequences of racism that the politically correct group won't even acknowledge much less talk about. And his opinion that this could be deliberate by those who profit from racism is more subtle, but I think it is there.
The sum total of the advice given in this thread from the right is to pretend that there is no racism and no white privilege.....and it will magically disappear.
This nation is still segregated. That is why this nation still has racists and white privilege.
No one has said that but you. Wonder why? As I said, this nation was founded on the idea of white privilege. The OP and many posters here have made similar points.
Does it still exist?
In what sense? If you are asking legally....no...not at all. There are good laws on the books.
But data suggests there are different outcomes in terms of length of sentencing. About six months on average. That should not be happening, but I find it sadly amusing that the courts (a liberal bastion) are perpetrating this injustice.
But as far as housing, jobs, etc....no. The law demands equal treatment and it should.
Sorry my tone may have SOUNDED abusive, but it WASN'T a fallacious attack, it was just pointing out the facts. He is either being disingenuous, out right lying, or doesn't know anything about electoral politics.Kill all white people and black people, or control everyone's ability to have free thoughts.Lets go back to the above statement. I would like to know what you meant by it.
What must we do to kill racism?
Sounds like the goals of eugenicists and authoritarians.
Live in an Utopian world view much?
Seriously, it's pretty simple.
As long as politicians and elites who control the media find a benefit in controlling the masses by creating divisions and hatred in order to get elected and steer attention away from important matters, the blame game and bigotry will continue.
Bull. You find racism and bigotry in people who do not vote, don't pay attention to politics and couldn't name the three branches of the US government if a gun was at their head.
You and I both pay attention....and..... therefore are being controlled by the media? I'd say that both you and I are aware of what the "important matters" are. Are you a bigot as a result? I'm not.
As long as racism exists in the masses, as mass influential movements, IT WILL affect the voting.
If you seriously don't believe that, then you don't know shit about the last presidential election, and you don't know anything about electoral politics.
Here you are arguing about race and racism as a problem that needs to be addressed, yet, you haven't gotten the entire point of the thread. If we just start treating everyone the same, and quit making such a big deal out of it, it will not breed division and resentment. The solution is here and now. You just don't want to accept it.
We're on the same page but watch the ad hominem please. Nobody has to agree with LL;s expressed opinion but he is perfectly entitled to it and it isn't allowed to draw assumptions from those opinions about what a member wants or doesn't want or other aspects of character.
McWhorter's approach to the topic is definitely off the beaten path and is soooooo politically incorrect, that it is hard for some to get past that and even try to understand what he is saying. He touches on the consequences of racism that the politically correct group won't even acknowledge much less talk about. And his opinion that this could be deliberate by those who profit from racism is more subtle, but I think it is there.
Demographics of How Groups Voted in the 2012 Presidential Election
Six take-aways from the Census Bureau s voting report Pew Research Center
Foxy,
In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.
All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.
As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.
Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.
Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.
The sum total of the advice given in this thread from the right is to pretend that there is no racism and no white privilege.....and it will magically disappear.
This nation is still segregated. That is why this nation still has racists and white privilege.
No one has said that but you. Wonder why? As I said, this nation was founded on the idea of white privilege. The OP and many posters here have made similar points.
Does it still exist?
In what sense? If you are asking legally....no...not at all. There are good laws on the books.
But data suggests there are different outcomes in terms of length of sentencing. About six months on average. That should not be happening, but I find it sadly amusing that the courts (a liberal bastion) are perpetrating this injustice.
But as far as housing, jobs, etc....no. The law demands equal treatment and it should.
It exists.
Now, in what sense do you believe white privilege exists?
Foxy,
In my field the data is overwhelming for both Communities and Individuals. You must take responsibility for problems in your life and your community. Focusing on bad things mommy and daddy might have done 30 years ago gets you nowhere. Those past actions cannot be changed.
All you can do is take responsibility now, improve your coping skills, and move forward in a positive direction.
As for the black community....it can only heal itself....if it wants too. The great white father cannot swoop in and tell blacks folks how to clean up their problems.
Both sides need to take responsibility....but only blacks can fix issues in their community.
Control is also key. If blacks are told and believe there will never be the possibility of improving their lot in life....either individually or their community....they're screwed. Those that perpetrate that message are evil imho. It helps no one.
Nobody is telling black ( people, citizens, Americans ) anything of the sort. And....if someone were, they wouldn't be listening.
