Debate Now White Privilege and an Institution of Racism

[BlackSand]

I didn't "argue" about it -- I requested it. To no avail.

As already noted, I can't participate if the OP refuses to say what the question is. I suspect she does this because I'm not likely to take the discussion where she wants it to go -- wherever that is. It's happened before.

No worries though. I've got my own cashews.

But you have participated.
You have given your answers in regards to the different ways you would approach the subject under varied definitions.
You have gone there and taken the discussion with you ... She cannot stop you from doing what you have already done.

If you want to join the party and pick a fight with the OP ... Then at least recognize it for what it is.
Maybe that way you can adjust your approach and start the healing process.

It is kind of like the "healing" argument that so many use in regards to race relations.
I am no expert ... But with all this healing going on .. And nothing getting healed ... Its about time y'all try something else.
You cannot make white people who had nothing to do with slavery, and who aren't racist, feel any more guilty ... Or at least not with any sense of accomplishing anything positive or worthwhile.

On a side note ... Glad to hear you have some cashews and are doing well ...

.

 

[MisterBeale]

Take this guy, for example:

I taught my black kids that their elite upbringing would protect them from discrimination. I was wrong. - The Washington Post

He earned everything he has. He's still not feeling equal.

When does this debate end with a concession? Never?

This guys example was stupid. Damn elite whiner. His kid WASN'T discriminated against, HE WAS BULLIED. And everyone, at some point or other gets bullied or harassed. If a person is ethnic, it just makes them an easier target. But somehow people of ethnicity seem to have this delusion that white people don't get bullied or excluded. What a bunch of crap.


You know what? Kids get bullied all the time, suck it up. At first, I REALLY empathized with his story growing up, and I felt for him and was proud of how he came up out of harsh circumstances, really, I did.

But you know what? ALL kids, fat kids, short kids, girls, boys, ugly kids, whatever, they all can have traumatic experiences where they are bullied, seriously.

Sure, his son encountered serious hard core racists. WHO GIVES A SHIT. He wants to whine to us that him and his kids feelings were hurt? And we should care? As long as no laws were broken, and no government and institutional racism occurred here, what you are talking about is trying to control what are in people's hearts. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.




When I was a boy of around, oh, say seven or eight, I was just a few years into reading, I loved it.

I was a VERY emotional boy. Boys aren't supposed to be emotional, especially back in the day when I grew up. To show tears when being bullied was a sign of weakness, but if pressed too hard, I could never help it.

One day on the bus ride to school I fell asleep. When we got to school, as the kids were getting off, some kids that were several grades ahead of me told me they thought the book I had been reading was a great read, they really enjoyed it. To my horror, it wasn't in the seat with me where I had been reading it. . . .

It was gone. I looked all over for it. The bus driver helped me.

We found it. It was all torn to shreds in the back of the bus. That Tom Sawyer book was the First Novel I had ever read in my life, and that bully destroyed it. I was crushed, heartbroken, I wept so hard, and I paid for it from the jeers of the boys at school. Did you know Jim was Huck's best friend? I digress.

Is that your "white privilege?" The point here is that it doesn't matter who you are, how old or young, EVERYONE can be bullied, and the way you are using this article makes it sound like the government can somehow do something about changing what is in people's hearts. Only the way we can change hate to love is by treating each other better and showing no preference for one person over another.

Folks who think that bullying based on race is any different than other bullying have a stick up their ass and just want to feel entitled at this point. It is the new millennium already. It's time we moved on, equality is codified and guaranteed by law. If discrimination happens, it can and will be investigated and the press will shine a light on it, you can bet your sweet ass on it.

Folks with racist attitudes will be shunned, isn't that enough? Let's just let it go and get on with our lives already. . . . Only the hateful and ignorant want to codify laws that see color at this point, or have "special training," about race relations. What a crock.

Could you imagine these sisters having to go to such a college having to take such a course? The white one having to take the "white guilt" course while the one other didn't? Wouldn't that be a hoot?

snopes.com Mixed Twins

Doesn't that show the absurdity of those that object to what McWhorter is getting at? After such a class, do you think the white sister would feel any different or have gotten anything out of it beyond resentment? Wouldn't the money, resources and talent be better allocated elsewhere in ending institutional racism, rather than addressing some theoretical fantasy, "white privilege." How much "white privilege," do you think the fair skinned girl isn't already aware of?

hmmmm?

Great rant. Completely irrelevant.

Sorry the logic and reasoning of it was above your pay grade. Go on and continue creating "racists" with your bullying. Just remember, I already advised you that you can catch more flies with honey than you can with shit.

 

[Pogo]

I didn't "argue" about it -- I requested it. To no avail.

As already noted, I can't participate if the OP refuses to say what the question is. I suspect she does this because I'm not likely to take the discussion where she wants it to go -- wherever that is. It's happened before.

No worries though. I've got my own cashews.

But you have participated.
You have given your answers in regards to the different ways you would approach the subject under varied definitions.
You have gone there and taken the discussion with you ... She cannot stop you from doing what you have already done.

If you want to join the party and pick a fight with the OP ... Then at least recognize it for what it is.
Maybe that way you can adjust your approach and start the healing process.

It is kind of like the "healing" argument that so many use in regards to race relations.
I am no expert ... But with all this healing going on .. And nothing getting healed ... Its about time y'all try something else.
You cannot make white people who had nothing to do with slavery, and who aren't racist, feel any more guilty ... Or at least not with any sense of accomplishing anything positive or worthwhile.

On a side note ... Glad to hear you have some cashews and are doing well ...

I tried to participate, but from the first post I asked for a definition of the phrase (not the word, the phrase). I got a runaround. So I asked again, politely explaining why it was essential to know, and rather than an answer I got invited to leave. Meanwhile somebody else asks for the same thing and gets definitions out the wazoo. Just can't help noticing that.

I do appreciate the irony that a topic supposedly about systems of excluding people --- becomes a system to exclude people. There's a message there somewhere.

Good to see you too m'dear. You've been missed. I'll try to control the cashewization but I love ya for remembering.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the phrase "keeping the focus on racism" is fatally undefined. It could mean a lot of different things.

Continuing AA policies, legally and rhetorically with the idea "I'm black so society owes me" is one thing it could mean, and I agree, those are counterproductive. But knowing our cultural context -- also defined as 'history' -- is another thing the phrase could mean, and taking that focus off would be even more counterproductive.

So perhaps we need to define what we mean by "focus", and what we don't mean.

Why argue about the meaning of the word when you have already given your answers as to the possible meanings you wanted to apply?
That would be about as useless as suggesting anyone living in America doesn't know of our history concerning Slavery or the Civil Rights violations that followed.

No Cashews For You!

I still have to disagree with McWhorter regarding the idea of being called a racist is the same as being called a pedophile.
It is so overused and misused nowadays ... It is beginning to mean nothing more than a personal attack made by people with no better argument to offer.

I am afraid that the whole cultural experience surrounding the past will be lost to ambiguity if people keep beating a dead horse.
.

Addressing the bolded part of your post:

I was unfamiliar with McWhorter until RCP highlighted his essay this week, but reading over that essay, that I still think is brilliant, I found myself liking him and appreciating a subtle sense of humor and elements of satire, at least to me, that I saw incorporated into the text.

I do have to disagree with you a wee bit because I see that those who use racism as a weapon do put it somewhere on a par with things as reprehensible as pedophilia. The slightest misplaced word, the slightest improper analogy, the most innocuous joke or metaphor, something expressed in anger or frustration or even a completely honest and true observation, if it contains politically incorrect imagery or language, can ruin a person's reputation, livelihood, and/or career when the PC police descend.

One of the most feared accusations of anybody in the public eye is to be accused of being racist because it will immediately go viral and the PC police in the form of political and economic opportunists, race baiters, and others who profit from racisim, will go for the throat. So every word, every phrase, every nuance has to be carefully thought through.

McWhorter, I believe, is expressing how this not only creates resentment by those who live in fear that some statement or phrase or word they use will be twisted into racism, but it keeps conciousness of skin color/race as not only glaringly obvious but required. And that too perpetuates racism.

 

[WelfareQueen]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

 

[Foxfyre]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

Sorry but Rule #3 for the thread explicitly states that nobody does have to show mountains of data or any data to support an expressed opinion. It is fine if WQ wishes to provide a link to support his statement. But it is not required. If you disagree you have the perfect right to do so. If you wish your opinion to hold more weight than his, however, you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong. Don't forget to put the basic concept of your link into your own words though.

 

[WelfareQueen]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and you will need to provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point. I look forward to your response.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and you will need to provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point. I look forward to your response.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve


Also, you ignored my point that all races equally discriminate regarding racial bias. If Blacks (like other races) and biased toward people of their own race is that inherently racist?

Data link


Dataclysm Who We Are When We Think No One s Looking Christian Rudder 9780385347372 Amazon.com Books

 

[WelfareQueen]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

Sorry but Rule #3 for the thread explicitly states that nobody does have to show mountains of data or any data to support an expressed opinion. It is fine if WQ wishes to provide a link to support his statement. But it is not required. If you disagree you have the perfect right to do so. If you wish your opinion to hold more weight than his, however, you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong.

I just provided a number of data links, Foxy. I have a postgraduate degree and this is my field. I have a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.

Whites and blacks of equal intelligence have virtually identical outcomes in terms of educational and economic success. This has been known for almost 30 years. It cannot be argued as the studies have been replicated many, many times. It definitely undercuts the idea America is still a deeply racist country.

Also, all races are equally biased toward people of their own race and show fairly equal bias against people of different races.

I would encourage anyone to read the data sources I provided as a starting point.

Thanks....and a very good thread.

 

[LoneLaugher]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

Sorry but Rule #3 for the thread explicitly states that nobody does have to show mountains of data or any data to support an expressed opinion. It is fine if WQ wishes to provide a link to support his statement. But it is not required. If you disagree you have the perfect right to do so. If you wish your opinion to hold more weight than his, however, you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong. Don't forget to put the basic concept of your link into your own words though.

You got the power!

 

[LoneLaugher]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.

I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.

 

[GreenBean]

NOTE: This thread is in the Structured Debate Forum.

John H. McWhorter PhD offers an interesting perspective on race in a recent essay. The inspiration for his thoughts were apparently triggered by students being required to attend "White Privilege 101" classes. His response to that is "Why, and for whose benefit?"

The concept he expresses raises the question of who is benefited when the conversation focuses on identification with race rather the means by which racism is eliminated or diminished.

Excerpted from the essay--pay special attention to the third paragraph cited here:

. . .If you’ve been white lately, you have likely been confronted with the idea that to be a good person, you must cultivate a guilt complex over the privileged status your race enjoys.

It isn’t that you are doing, or even quite thinking, anything racist. Rather, your existential state of Living While White constitutes a form of racism in itself. Your understanding will serve as a tool … for something. But be careful about asking just what that something is, because that will mean you “just don’t get it.”

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .​

And later in the essay he comments:

. . . the idea is not to teach white people that White Privilege means that black people are the only group of people in human history who cannot deal with obstacles and challenges. If the idea is that black people cannot solve their problems short of white people developing an exquisite sensitivity to how privileged they are, then we in the black community are being designated as disabled poster children. . . .​

And he further notes that these days, a white person accused of being racist is somewhere on a par with being designated as a pedophile.

The whole essay is here: The Privilege of Checking White Privilege - The Daily Beast

THE RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. Stay on topic please. The topic is stated in the question to be answered below.

2. No ad hominem re other members or political parties or conservatives or liberals, etc. Focus on the comment posted and not the character or motive of the person posting it. Focus on the stated position of a political party if pertinent to the topic and not on the character or motive of the political party itself.

3. References, reasonable excerpts of, and links to other stated opinions are allowed but will not be required for this discussion. If used, put the basic concept of the linked material into your own words also and explain how it relates to the concept of 'white privilege'.

THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED IN THIS DISCUSSION:

Does a focus on 'white privilege' and racism as McWhorter describes it help or hurt black people? Please explain your 'yes' or 'no' answer or any position you take between 'yes' or 'no'.

Teaching White-Guilt



The concept of White Guilt , and minority victimization is a common theme perpetrated on students at all levels of the educational system. One prime example is an American Diversity class taught at many schools , but one that made the News was at Delavan-Darien High School in Wisconsin. The students are basically taught if you are white, you are oppressing. If you are non white, you have been a victim. Young Americas Foundation staff member Brendan Pringle, labeled the course asrace-baiting.



Professors and teachers are increasingly telling white students that they are part of the problem of racism, and are telling black students that they are second-class citizens. This race-baiting technique is an attack on American values and can only breed bitterness and envy. Wisconsin High School Teaches White Privilege Class



Once again in Wisconsin, The University of Wisconsin Superior joined the Unfair Campaign, which looks to bring attention to the unfairness of being white.



Omaha Public Schools using $130,000 of Obama stimulus money they purchased 8,000 copies of a book called The Cultural Proficiency Journey: Moving Beyond Ethical Barriers Toward Profound School Change. The textbook instructs teachers that they must reject the color-blind approach to teaching in which teachers treat all children the same. Basically it calls for privileges to be extended to minorities and homosexuals at the expense of everyone else. It further teaches that white privilege is ingrained in America. The book / propaganda manual is already part of the indoctrination curriculum in

Atlanta

San Diego

Maryland

Canada and elsewhere.



The following are a few excerpts from the book

One is compelled to recognize that oppressed groups seeking equality needed to be amended into the Constitution in their quest for justice. On the other hand, heterosexual white men as a group, the unstated norm, have never needed to be amended into the Constitution.


It is common for teachers to proclaim they do not see color in children. Colorblindness will not end racism. Pretending race does not exist is not the same as creating equality.



One reviewer wrote of the textbook :

...this book is disguised hate speech pretending to be a helpful enlightened book. This is real racism and prejudice under the guise of education and diversity. We dont need someone to tell us how to feel and act when we encounter someone who is of different ethnicity.

 

[Foxfyre]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and you will need to provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point. I look forward to your response.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and you will need to provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point. I look forward to your response.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve


Also, you ignored my point that all races equally discriminate regarding racial bias. If Blacks (like other races) and biased toward people of their own race is that inherently racist?

Data link


Dataclysm Who We Are When We Think No One s Looking Christian Rudder 9780385347372 Amazon.com Books

That reminds me of that silly notion some seem to hold that you can't be racist if you're black.

But how wonderful it would be if we just all made up our minds to say, okay, let's end it right now. As Morgan Freeman said, to eliminate racism: "I will stop calling you a white man. And you will stop calling me a black man. . . "

Once we declare skin color to be of no more importance than eye color or hair color, anybody, black or white, who uses the "n" word may be declared rude, crude, offensive, socially unacceptable, but it will be acknowledged that everybody, black and white, are as entitled to use the word as anybody else. We take away the power of the word to hurt when it is understood that it is an uncultured, ignorant person using it. If Marge Shott refers to her "million dollar N. . . .s" so what? If her players don't like it, let them deal with it. They're grown ups and perfectly capable of expressing their own opinions about it.

If Don Imus makes a joke about "nappy headed hos" then let his audience tell him the joke isn't funny but certainly that was not more ignorant or offensive than jokes Imus has made about other things and it should carry no more weight.

A cartoon of a dead Chimpanzee intended by the cartoonist to represent the crazed chimp that was in the news that week will not automatically be associated with the President. And those who do associate it that way will be met by people who roll their eyes at such ignorance.

The Black Panther leader accusing 'whitey' of keeping the black man down will be told to sit down and shut up and stop being such a dork.

Intelligent, educated people reinstate good manners and adopt truely non racist attitudes about everybody. They refuse to see, treat, speak about, or consider more fragile those people who happen to have black skins. And it becomes okay to joke about being black or white or freckled or bald or short or tall and nobody has to tremble in fear that they will be misunderstood. If you say something rude or insensitive to a black person, it carries no more weight than being rude or insensitive to anybody else.

Programs targeted to help minorities are ended so nobody has to wonder if the black guy got his job or promotion because of the color of his skin. Everybody will know he had to sink or swim on his own merit like everybody else. We allow black people to stop being a 'protected class' and fully join the human race on equal footing with everybody else.

That is where I think McWhorter was going with his essay. And I agree with him 100%.

 

[Foxfyre]

NOTE: This thread is in the Structured Debate Forum.

John H. McWhorter PhD offers an interesting perspective on race in a recent essay. The inspiration for his thoughts were apparently triggered by students being required to attend "White Privilege 101" classes. His response to that is "Why, and for whose benefit?"

The concept he expresses raises the question of who is benefited when the conversation focuses on identification with race rather the means by which racism is eliminated or diminished.

Excerpted from the essay--pay special attention to the third paragraph cited here:

. . .If you’ve been white lately, you have likely been confronted with the idea that to be a good person, you must cultivate a guilt complex over the privileged status your race enjoys.

It isn’t that you are doing, or even quite thinking, anything racist. Rather, your existential state of Living While White constitutes a form of racism in itself. Your understanding will serve as a tool … for something. But be careful about asking just what that something is, because that will mean you “just don’t get it.”

To be sure, there is, indeed, a distinct White Privilege. Being white does offer a freedom not easily available to others. You can underperform without it being ascribed to your race. And when you excel, no one wonders whether Affirmative Action had anything to do with it. Authority figures are likely to be your color, and no one associates people of your color with a propensity to violence. No one expects you to represent your race in a class discussion or anywhere else. . . .​

And later in the essay he comments:

. . . the idea is not to teach white people that White Privilege means that black people are the only group of people in human history who cannot deal with obstacles and challenges. If the idea is that black people cannot solve their problems short of white people developing an exquisite sensitivity to how privileged they are, then we in the black community are being designated as disabled poster children. . . .​

And he further notes that these days, a white person accused of being racist is somewhere on a par with being designated as a pedophile.

The whole essay is here: The Privilege of Checking White Privilege - The Daily Beast

THE RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. Stay on topic please. The topic is stated in the question to be answered below.

2. No ad hominem re other members or political parties or conservatives or liberals, etc. Focus on the comment posted and not the character or motive of the person posting it. Focus on the stated position of a political party if pertinent to the topic and not on the character or motive of the political party itself.

3. References, reasonable excerpts of, and links to other stated opinions are allowed but will not be required for this discussion. If used, put the basic concept of the linked material into your own words also and explain how it relates to the concept of 'white privilege'.

THE QUESTION TO BE ADDRESSED IN THIS DISCUSSION:

Does a focus on 'white privilege' and racism as McWhorter describes it help or hurt black people? Please explain your 'yes' or 'no' answer or any position you take between 'yes' or 'no'.

Teaching White-Guilt



The concept of White Guilt , and minority victimization is a common theme perpetrated on students at all levels of the educational system. One prime example is an American Diversity class taught at many schools , but one that made the News was at Delavan-Darien High School in Wisconsin. The students are basically taught if you are white, you are oppressing. If you are non white, you have been a victim. Young Americas Foundation staff member Brendan Pringle, labeled the course asrace-baiting.



Professors and teachers are increasingly telling white students that they are part of the problem of racism, and are telling black students that they are second-class citizens. This race-baiting technique is an attack on American values and can only breed bitterness and envy. Wisconsin High School Teaches White Privilege Class



Once again in Wisconsin, The University of Wisconsin Superior joined the Unfair Campaign, which looks to bring attention to the unfairness of being white.



Omaha Public Schools using $130,000 of Obama stimulus money they purchased 8,000 copies of a book called The Cultural Proficiency Journey: Moving Beyond Ethical Barriers Toward Profound School Change. The textbook instructs teachers that they must reject the color-blind approach to teaching in which teachers treat all children the same. Basically it calls for privileges to be extended to minorities and homosexuals at the expense of everyone else. It further teaches that white privilege is ingrained in America. The book / propaganda manual is already part of the indoctrination curriculum in

Atlanta

San Diego

Maryland

Canada and elsewhere.



The following are a few excerpts from the book

One is compelled to recognize that oppressed groups seeking equality needed to be amended into the Constitution in their quest for justice. On the other hand, heterosexual white men as a group, the unstated norm, have never needed to be amended into the Constitution.


It is common for teachers to proclaim they do not see color in children. Colorblindness will not end racism. Pretending race does not exist is not the same as creating equality.



One reviewer wrote of the textbook :

...this book is disguised hate speech pretending to be a helpful enlightened book. This is real racism and prejudice under the guise of education and diversity. We dont need someone to tell us how to feel and act when we encounter someone who is of different ethnicity.

Well done GB. You found a lot of examples of the problem in addition to those I have already posted. It definitely touches on the problem that McWhorter was addressing in his essay.

 

[GreenBean]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.

I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.

" There is no getting around certain large and troubling implications of black-white differences. The implications seem most troubling when you turn from the average differences and focus instead on the differences at the extreme -- when you contrast the two overlapping bell-shaped distribution curves and look at the proportions in each group scoring above and below certain levels. If you tell yourself that the top professional and managerial jobs in this country require an IQ of at least 115 or thereabouts, then you also have to tell yourself that only about 2.5 percent of blacks appear able to compete for those jobs. "

The differing opinions as to whether vast discrepancies are relative to Genetics or culture - Nurture or nature are where the racists and race baiters can be separated from the intellectually empowered.

A race baiter will claim that the differences are the result of white privilege - the statistics and testing being stacked in favor of whitey.

While a racist will claim Blacks are inherently intellectually inferior - myself - I'm undecided as there simply isn't enough reliable data that is not propagandized by one side or the other.

 

[Foxfyre]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.

I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.

I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.

Just in case you missed this:

. . . .Rule #3 for the thread explicitly states that nobody does have to show mountains of data or any data to support an expressed opinion. It is fine if WQ wishes to provide a link to support his statement. But it is not required. If you disagree you have the perfect right to do so. If you wish your opinion to hold more weight than his, however, you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong. Don't forget to put the basic concept of your link into your own words though.

 

[GreenBean]

you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong. Don't forget to put the basic concept of your link into your own words though.

Trolls don't do that - the rules are fools and other people not them ...lol

 

[Foxfyre]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.

I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.

" There is no getting around certain large and troubling implications of black-white differences. The implications seem most troubling when you turn from the average differences and focus instead on the differences at the extreme -- when you contrast the two overlapping bell-shaped distribution curves and look at the proportions in each group scoring above and below certain levels. If you tell yourself that the top professional and managerial jobs in this country require an IQ of at least 115 or thereabouts, then you also have to tell yourself that only about 2.5 percent of blacks appear able to compete for those jobs. "

The differing opinions as to whether vast discrepancies are relative to Genetics or culture - Nurture or nature are where the racists and race baiters can be separated from the intellectually empowered.

A race baiter will claim that the differences are the result of white privilege - the statistics and testing being stacked in favor of whitey.

While a racist will claim Blacks are inherently intellectually inferior - myself - I'm undecided as there simply isn't enough reliable data that is not propagandized by one side or the other.

And in a truly equitable world you are allowed to be undecided about that. In a PC-dominated world you are declared racist to even question it.

I believe WQ has provided links and sources already that. taken at face value, pretty well dispel the myth that black people over all are intellectually inferior to white people. I certainly haven't seen any such intellectual disparity in my dealings with black people either socially or professionally. And it occurred to me the other day that when I prepare lists of contemporary people I most often read because I consider them brilliant, a plurality of the names on that list happen to be black people. I had never noticed that before. I don't know what it means, but it sure doesn't suggest that black people are less capable or less intelligent than white people.

But if we don't have that conversation, then those who for whatever reason are convinced of the myth will have little or no opportunity to voluntarily change their minds. Instead they'll be accused of being racists by the PC police, resentment will result, and they will dig even more firmly into their position.

 

[Foxfyre]

you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong. Don't forget to put the basic concept of your link into your own words though.

Trolls don't do that - the rules are fools and other people not them ...lol

Whoops. Careful GB. No ad hominem please. Let's keep it civil and out of the food fight areas here please.

 

[LoneLaugher]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.

I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

Sorry. Not going to buy a book. Give me the data please. In your own words would also be nice.

I would especially like to see the study with the 117 mean IQ data. You know the one you say has been replicated many many times. Thanks.

Just in case you missed this:

. . . .Rule #3 for the thread explicitly states that nobody does have to show mountains of data or any data to support an expressed opinion. It is fine if WQ wishes to provide a link to support his statement. But it is not required. If you disagree you have the perfect right to do so. If you wish your opinion to hold more weight than his, however, you will need to provide YOUR link to a credible source to show that he is wrong. Don't forget to put the basic concept of your link into your own words though.

I didn't miss anything. Especially your power trip. It's so cool!

 

[Foxfyre]

America was largely founded on white privilege. Having white skin in this society is probably still a superficial advantage.

However, there are mountains of data that clearly indicate all other factors being equal, that intelligent and educated blacks are just as successful as whites. In other words....a black person with a mean 117 I.Q. (the I.Q. of the average 4 year college graduate) is just as likely to obtain a college degree and be economically successful as a white person. That data undermines the left wing meme that America is still a deeply racist and bigoted society.

Another factor that is overwhelmingly supported by data is that all races equally discriminate. Blacks generally want to marry, work with, play with, live with and have children with other Blacks. Ditto Whites, Hispanics and Asians.

Does the fact that Blacks have these racial preferences mean they are racist? Or, are only Whites racist when they have exactly the same preferences?

I think that gets to the heart of the OP's question.

According to the rules of the thread,you need to show us the mountains of data. A black person with a 117 IQ is just as likely to obtain a college degree as a white person with a 117 IQ? You have mountains of data that support that? Let's see it.

So you believe blacks that are equally as intelligent as whites are less successful? That is amazingly racist of you. Care to explain and provide data. Thanks.


And read this as a data starting point.


Intelligence Genes and Success - Scientists Respond to The Bell Curve

And I hate to poke somebody who has contributed valuable information to the thread, (and who I have appreciated a lot), but I have to be fair and equitable here. Watch the ad hominem. Attack the member's post at will, but the member's beliefs, unless stated, or his character are off limits.